I think that most of the deniers know it happend and are glad that it did. Their evil lies are more about whitewashing the Nazis and an attempt to turn the tables and make the Jews the perpetrators of the greatest scam in history. They are truly evil people and I hope their is a Hell if only so they can meet their Führer there when they die.
9/11-investigator explains the Holocaust
- Thread starter dtugg
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I think that most of the deniers know it happend and are glad that it did. Their evil lies are more about whitewashing the Nazis and an attempt to turn the tables and make the Jews the perpetrators of the greatest scam in history. They are truly evil people and I hope their is a Hell if only so they can meet their Führer there when they die.
Unbelievable stuff coming from someone who lives in a country that was invaded and bombed by the Nazi's! I am sure he wouldn't have been such a Nazi lover if he was around in 1940.
You should be ashamed of yourself! Your fellow countrymen tried in vain to withstand the Nazi's in 1940, eventhough they knew it was an excercise in futility!
Of course the Nazi's went public about the Katyn forrest massacre. They wanted to create a rift between the Aliies. And the multinational invstigation force? All but one individual came from Nazi sympathetic countries.
The evidence to disprove your fantasy is there. it has been debated in court, it was upheld in a court of law. How have your theories done in a court of law?
Your ignorance is shameful and disgusting to the memory of what your country did to fight the Nazi's. You dishonour yourself and you dishonour the lives of every single person who died fighting to save Holland from the Nazi's.
Are you proud of that?
You should be ashamed of yourself! Your fellow countrymen tried in vain to withstand the Nazi's in 1940, eventhough they knew it was an excercise in futility!
Of course the Nazi's went public about the Katyn forrest massacre. They wanted to create a rift between the Aliies. And the multinational invstigation force? All but one individual came from Nazi sympathetic countries.
The evidence to disprove your fantasy is there. it has been debated in court, it was upheld in a court of law. How have your theories done in a court of law?
Your ignorance is shameful and disgusting to the memory of what your country did to fight the Nazi's. You dishonour yourself and you dishonour the lives of every single person who died fighting to save Holland from the Nazi's.
Are you proud of that?
One of the more idiotic posts I've seen in some time. You missed out on a job you were not qualified for, so you fantasise about Siemens today being even remotely similar to Siemens 60+ years ago.
headscratcher4
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So, let me get this straight...Goebles, a master propogandist writing in a diary that he one day believes will not only be published but be a chronicle of the greatness of himself, Hitler and the Nazi reich, writes obliquely about the Jews and never suggests that they are being exterminated. Ergo: no holocaust.
Himmler, charged with the task, speaking candidly to the leadership of the SS, Army, etc. in a "secret" speech not intended for the public candidly uses the word "extermination"...but that isn't even mentioned in 9/11's post. Hmmmm. A little selective analysis here?
On a different matter...so, he wants to argue...100s of thousands died of typhus...and somehow that isn't genocide. Even were this the case and the only cause of death by the hands of Nazi occupation...it still begs the question: what were they doing in camps where food and sanitation were at such a low level as to allow typhus (a controllable condition) to exist and spread? Why were children interred in camps? What was their threat to the Nazi state? Why were non-combatant women and elderly confined in camps and exposed to typhus?
I just don't get the whole typhus argument. People specifically uprooted from their homes (arguably illegally) driven into Ghettos and camps, held against their will. Forced to do labor not of their choosing for no compensation. Ill treated. Denied medical care. Denied proper sanitation. Exposed to controllable but fatal disease, who subsequently died in droves. This is the "it wasn't a systematic murder" version of the holocaust.
I don't understant why it absolves anyone connected with the Nazi state of anything. Hundreds of thousands, maybe millions, of innocent men, women and children, non-combatants, were specifically issolated and allowed to be exposed to conditions that would kill them. And, somehow this absolves the Nazi state? Or it makes the holocaust less terrible and more understandable?
Beyond the ignoring of the factual record -- the documents, the audio recordings (such as the one transcribed below of Himmler), the eye witness accounts, the court testimony, the photographs, the moving pictures, the best you can come up with is that lots and lots of people died because of eitehr a). German incompetence managing their otherwise "friendly" relocation program, or b). died because of a determined German policy to not provide food, medicine, shelter, etc. to 100s of thousands if not millions of people who were under their control or came under thier control as a result of their aggression.
In short, the dodge -- they all died of typhus -- is rediculous. They still died. More to the point were murdered as a direct result of German policy...and, most importantly, Jews were a principal if not the principal target of the policy. Ergo...genocide.
But, as is clear from Herr. Himmler....it wasn't benign neglect, it was an explicit, overt policy of the German state to eliminate/exterminate the Jews.
From Himmler's Posnan Speech....
"I also want to refer here very frankly to a very difficult matter. We can now very openly talk about this among ourselves, and yet we will never discuss this publicly. Just as we did not hesitate on 30 June 1934, to perform our duty as ordered and put comrades who had failed up against the wall and execute them, we also never spoke about it, nor will we ever speak about it. (reference to the Night of the Long Knives) Let us thank God that we had within us enough self-evident fortitude never to discuss it among us, and we never talked about it. Every one of us was horrified, and yet every one clearly understood that we would do it next time, when the order is given and when it becomes necessary. I am now referring to the evacuation of the Jews, to the extermination of the Jewish people. This is something that is easily said: "The Jewish people will be exterminated", says every Party member, "this is very obvious, it is in our program — elimination of the Jews, extermination, a small matter." And then they turn up, the upstanding 80 million Germans, and each one has his decent Jew. They say the others are all pigs, but this particular one is a splendid Jew. (compare with Rosenstrasse protest) But none has observed it, endured it. Most of you here know what it means when 100 corpses lie next to each other, when there are 500 or when there are 1,000. To have endured this and at the same time to have remained a decent person — with exceptions due to human weaknesses — has made us tough, and is a glorious chapter that has not and will not be spoken of. Because we know how difficult it would be for us if we will had Jews as secret saboteurs, agitators and rabble rousers in every city, what with the bombings, with the burden and with the hardships of the war. If the Jews were still part of the German nation, we would most likely arrive now at the state we were at in 1916/17. (as in the Dolchstosslegende)."
—Heinrich Himmler, 4 October 1943
Yes -- I know, 9/11 it is a faked-up speech created by the victors to make the Allies look bad.
In fact, the whole history of WWII is faked up by the allies, 'cause clearly Germany won...and all the missing European Jews are living happy lives somewhere in the East.
Himmler, charged with the task, speaking candidly to the leadership of the SS, Army, etc. in a "secret" speech not intended for the public candidly uses the word "extermination"...but that isn't even mentioned in 9/11's post. Hmmmm. A little selective analysis here?
On a different matter...so, he wants to argue...100s of thousands died of typhus...and somehow that isn't genocide. Even were this the case and the only cause of death by the hands of Nazi occupation...it still begs the question: what were they doing in camps where food and sanitation were at such a low level as to allow typhus (a controllable condition) to exist and spread? Why were children interred in camps? What was their threat to the Nazi state? Why were non-combatant women and elderly confined in camps and exposed to typhus?
I just don't get the whole typhus argument. People specifically uprooted from their homes (arguably illegally) driven into Ghettos and camps, held against their will. Forced to do labor not of their choosing for no compensation. Ill treated. Denied medical care. Denied proper sanitation. Exposed to controllable but fatal disease, who subsequently died in droves. This is the "it wasn't a systematic murder" version of the holocaust.
I don't understant why it absolves anyone connected with the Nazi state of anything. Hundreds of thousands, maybe millions, of innocent men, women and children, non-combatants, were specifically issolated and allowed to be exposed to conditions that would kill them. And, somehow this absolves the Nazi state? Or it makes the holocaust less terrible and more understandable?
Beyond the ignoring of the factual record -- the documents, the audio recordings (such as the one transcribed below of Himmler), the eye witness accounts, the court testimony, the photographs, the moving pictures, the best you can come up with is that lots and lots of people died because of eitehr a). German incompetence managing their otherwise "friendly" relocation program, or b). died because of a determined German policy to not provide food, medicine, shelter, etc. to 100s of thousands if not millions of people who were under their control or came under thier control as a result of their aggression.
In short, the dodge -- they all died of typhus -- is rediculous. They still died. More to the point were murdered as a direct result of German policy...and, most importantly, Jews were a principal if not the principal target of the policy. Ergo...genocide.
But, as is clear from Herr. Himmler....it wasn't benign neglect, it was an explicit, overt policy of the German state to eliminate/exterminate the Jews.
From Himmler's Posnan Speech....
"I also want to refer here very frankly to a very difficult matter. We can now very openly talk about this among ourselves, and yet we will never discuss this publicly. Just as we did not hesitate on 30 June 1934, to perform our duty as ordered and put comrades who had failed up against the wall and execute them, we also never spoke about it, nor will we ever speak about it. (reference to the Night of the Long Knives) Let us thank God that we had within us enough self-evident fortitude never to discuss it among us, and we never talked about it. Every one of us was horrified, and yet every one clearly understood that we would do it next time, when the order is given and when it becomes necessary. I am now referring to the evacuation of the Jews, to the extermination of the Jewish people. This is something that is easily said: "The Jewish people will be exterminated", says every Party member, "this is very obvious, it is in our program — elimination of the Jews, extermination, a small matter." And then they turn up, the upstanding 80 million Germans, and each one has his decent Jew. They say the others are all pigs, but this particular one is a splendid Jew. (compare with Rosenstrasse protest) But none has observed it, endured it. Most of you here know what it means when 100 corpses lie next to each other, when there are 500 or when there are 1,000. To have endured this and at the same time to have remained a decent person — with exceptions due to human weaknesses — has made us tough, and is a glorious chapter that has not and will not be spoken of. Because we know how difficult it would be for us if we will had Jews as secret saboteurs, agitators and rabble rousers in every city, what with the bombings, with the burden and with the hardships of the war. If the Jews were still part of the German nation, we would most likely arrive now at the state we were at in 1916/17. (as in the Dolchstosslegende)."
—Heinrich Himmler, 4 October 1943
Yes -- I know, 9/11 it is a faked-up speech created by the victors to make the Allies look bad.
In fact, the whole history of WWII is faked up by the allies, 'cause clearly Germany won...and all the missing European Jews are living happy lives somewhere in the East.
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themusicteacher
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Sarcasm: ON
Come on guys, everyone knows the following are Jew conspiracies to rule the world:
The Holocaust
9/11
Banks
Pogrom's
Kosher food
Broadway musicals (also a homosexual conspiracy)
Hollywood
The Moon Landing
The sinking of the Titanic
Starbuck's
Computers
Cute, snuggly kittens
No amount of evidence to the contrary will convince me otherwise because it has been tainted by those filthy Zionists. In fact, the conspiracies have been constructed so well by those bastards that it would, at this point, be near impossible to prove otherwise. Trust me, though, they (and all the "eyewitnesses," historians, politicians, etc.) are lying about it all.
Come on guys, everyone knows the following are Jew conspiracies to rule the world:
The Holocaust
9/11
Banks
Pogrom's
Kosher food
Broadway musicals (also a homosexual conspiracy)
Hollywood
The Moon Landing
The sinking of the Titanic
Starbuck's
Computers
Cute, snuggly kittens
No amount of evidence to the contrary will convince me otherwise because it has been tainted by those filthy Zionists. In fact, the conspiracies have been constructed so well by those bastards that it would, at this point, be near impossible to prove otherwise. Trust me, though, they (and all the "eyewitnesses," historians, politicians, etc.) are lying about it all.
Travis
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I'm not getting this. Even if we accepted the premise that the deaths were due to disease running rampant through the camps it would still be an act of genocide. Look at how the Germans committed genocide in South West Africa. They hardly killed anyone directly but they drove everyone else out into the desert then guarded the few watering holes that were there. The end result was still the death of the people even if they weren't shot....or gassed.
So, the fact that these camps were killing people, even if only from disease, is still evidence of a monstrous crime. A crime not too different from what the USA accused Henry Wirz of in his administration of Andersonville. He was executed, by the way, for allowing disease and starvation to run rampant in his camp.
So, the fact that these camps were killing people, even if only from disease, is still evidence of a monstrous crime. A crime not too different from what the USA accused Henry Wirz of in his administration of Andersonville. He was executed, by the way, for allowing disease and starvation to run rampant in his camp.
Oliver
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As far I remember there is a religious reason why Jews were allowed to lender money ["create banks"] due to their less restricted religious rules about money - but I don't see how that relates to the Holocaust other than a relation to Anti-Semitism in general.
GreNME
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I don't normally start thinking this a possibility this until they start getting into the even larger number of the Chinese who were killed by the Japanese, or the number of Russian deaths as if this somehow lessens the story of the Holocaust.
The reality is that, yes, there were many people killed who weren't Jews during the Second World War. However, the Holocaust doesn't lessen them or make their deaths meaningless in any way. The difference in the Holocaust is that this was a systematic and institutionalized outcropping of a social prejudice that resulted in the deaths of millions of people, specifically targeting them as such. This difference also happens to apply to the Roma and the homosexuals, but the reason why the name has been given to the Holocaust for the Jews is that this seems to have been a historical culmination of centuries (or some might argue millennia) of prejudice, degradation, displacement, and hatred of Jews. Bringing up the others who were killed doesn't lessen the evil that was the Nazi machine, it highlights how much worse it actually was and the horrors that other groups (like the Russians or the Japanese) enacted themselves. But Germany didn't have two nukes dropped on it, while Japan did (along with being crippled militarily for decades to follow). Russia wound up finding itself at odds with much of the world for decades. These other crimes have been addressed, along with the horrors of the Holocaust.
As Shermer points out in the video linked earlier, the sureness we have about the Holocaust shares a few key qualities with the sureness we have about Evolution: its proofs don't lie in any one single evidential proof but in a series of compounding and confirming evidences; the more information we are able to gather gives the understanding revisions based on refinement, but do not remove doubt; the evidences that are present are actually sufficient that the study of them can be independently confirmed. Similarly, creationism and Holocaust denial share some similar qualities: they both argue from incredulity (on evidence); they both attempt to argue from the 'gaps'; they both tend to have an ever-shifting demand for a supposed "single proof" that creates a false dilemma.
GreNME
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Jews didn't "create banks" Oliver. Some worked in them, while others worked as smiths, lawyers, doctors, and so on. The stereotype of Jewish bankers is tied in with the Anti-Semitism that was at the core of the Nazi movement to remove the Jews (and ultimately to kill so many).
headscratcher4
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Exactly...what I was trying to say, but stated more clearly.
Look, here 9/11's and other holocaust deniers problem -- out side of the facts, documents, testimony, witness statements, the existence of the camps, photographs, movies, etc. that is.
They simply can't deny that Germany had a policy of expelling Jews. In other words, Germany had a stated policy witness by all of western and eastern Europe of going in (the nice words for unprovoked invasion) to a country, identifying, issolating and expelling the jews. Reminder: these were civilian, non-combatant populations that included children as well as old people.
In the west, they were identified, rounded-up and put on trains to the East. The same was true in the German territories proper...rounded up, put on trains to the east (save for a small number of "german" jews who were more or less ignored though who still suffered a great deal). In the east, these same, non-combatant populations were moved into secure ghettos (to the point of creating health and sanitation emergencies), and these ghettos were slowly/Quickly drained of people who were sent "east". Also, included in the invasion force were "action teams" that followed the army into the east and .... what 9/11? What were they doing at Babi Yar, in Lithuania, Poland etc?
Anyway, they all moved to the east and the ones left behind, apparently died of typhus. Could someone explain to me how the moved to the east and where? There was a war going on. The Germans were fighting the Russians. The Russians weren't letting people in...especially as they were falling back.
So, even in the "move to the east" and the "weak ones died of typus" version of events, you put a lot of innocent people uprooted from their homelands in a no-mans land between two armies intent on killing each other (btw, in your "it didn't happen, you can't prove it" theory, do you also include the 20 million Russians -- many of whom were POWs -- who died as not having died catagory?). In short, the very best you can do is to suggest that the Germans, not the bad guys of your history, deposited un-armed women, children and old people without food, clothing or shelter, up-rooted from every European country into an eastern no-mans-land between two massive armies intent on destroying each other...and that you argue isn't genecide or a holocaust?
Also, let us take one other example. 1944 Hungry breaks its aliance with Germany. Up until them, anti-semetic laws persecuted the 400,000 plus Hungarian Jews, but pretty well left them unmolested in any major faction. Germany invades Hungary and takes over the country. Item one on the German to do list? Get the Jews (even though the Russians were now baring down on them). Now no one, to my knowledge, doubts that the Germans over the course of a couple of months promulgated laws seperating the Jews from the general population, seperated the Jews from the general population, ordered them to report to train stations, put them on trains headed north and east. Where did they go?
My history -- documents like train schedules and military orders, witnesses, photos, etc. -- say that large numbers of them were taken to Aushwitz were they were pretty well wipped out by Gas over about three months. Your version? They died of Typus?
My point is that almost any case you can site, the documents, testimoney, witnesses, etc. is against you...so your claim has to be not just big but overly credible to demolish the pyramid of proof. Typhus and bad plumbing don't do it.
Simon39759
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Indeed, Judaism, as a rule, did not have prohibition against money-lendering, the way several of the Christian sect did for a long time.
They also were barred from a variety of other jobs, depending of the country, including as state official or to own a land. So, in some case, banking was one of the few jobs they could hold.
Even then, the stereotype is, as GreNME mentions, based on a few well-known cases. The vast majority of the Jews were not Rothschild but rather small shop-owner and such. In the East, Poland and Russia, Jews were actually generally amongst the poorest of the poor in a land were serfdom was legal until 1861...
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
And Heretic Hulk outs himself...
9/11-investigator
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I was talking about ethnic continuity of the group, not about individuals. Yes, many Jews were victims (Anne Frank) but many different Jews were also perpetrators within the Bolshevik system. Think of Trotzky, Kaganovich or Yagoda. They were responsible for the death of millions.
Not that the likes of dtugg, dudalb and finewine care very much. Even mentioning these mass murderers is probably an act of anti-semitism in the eyes of our esteemed forum friends. In any case, they don't like talking about them. 'Not good for the Jews'.
There were not 'millions of Jews' in Western Europe. Could you please break
down your claims as to how many Jews were present in W.E. before and after the war? Thanks.
GreNME
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That Donahue video is horrible, HH. It's horrible because Cole was arguing like a twelve year old, interrupting when he disagreed but smiling smugly (or interrupting the conversation with glee) when he agreed. The guy doing the voice-overs made such ridiculous statements (the comments about crematoriums was the most ridiculous) that are easily and demonstrably false. Smith and Cole both engaged in almost complete diversionary arguments, away from the evidence (arguing from the gaps) instead of arguing actual evidence.
Really, dude, you need to re-think your application of critical thinking.
Maybe he thinks they went here? All you have to do is ignore the second paragraph and pretty much anything else that doesn't support the argument...
9/11-investigator
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For people who wonder who Cole is...
David Cole is a Jewish revisionist.
Go and have a one hour walk with David through the Auschwitz labor camp:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXKHw0EZrqM
9/11-investigator
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Of course I have seen that.
Summary: according to the wisdom arrived at at Nuremberg the evil Nazi's had killed hundreds of thousands of Jews and then buried them. On second thought they buried them up again and burned the corpses just to leave no traces.
A couple of years ago an Australian team went to these camp sites and used ground penetrating radar to investigate the top layer of the soil.
Result: the earth had been unmoved since the last ice age.
We can calmly tick off 1/3 of the holocaust.
Simon39759
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So, because a small number of communist at the time of the Revolution were Jewish? The persecution caused by the communists later, such as Stalin that, by the way, got Trotsky murdered, is their fault?
And, even if they did see her as one of their oppressors, you didn't explain how the 'victims of communism' in Poland, Russia, Ukraine or the Baltic states, could be responsible for the death of Anne Frank, one continent away!
Your Arguement seems to be shifting: the holocaust did not happen. Or it was much smaller in scale. And the Nazis did not explicitly want to murder them. Also they are responsible for communism so they really had it coming.
All of these being, of course, disproved by a very large body of evidence.
9/11-investigator
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The gas chambers. They really existed. Here is one:
http://www.scrapbookpages.com/DachauScrapBook/DachauPhotos/OldPhotos/MajdanekStains.jpg
You can easily discern the stains of prussian blue (HCN or Zyklon-B) on the wall.
Holocaust proven? Not so fast.
These gas chambers were used to kill lice in the clothes of the camp inmates. Not only the Germans but also the Japanese and Americans used these kind of facilities. They were intended to save lives.
Comes Fred Leuchter. He was the number one American gas chamber expert. He had constructed gas chambers for the American government as a way to execute criminals. He was the one who travelled to auschwitz to take some samples from the walls that suposedly had been gas chamers to kill humans.
Result: no traces of cyanide whatsoever.
It was the Leuchter report that changed the opinion of British world renowned WW2 historian David Irving about the holocaust. It cost him dearly. Recently he was sentenced for 3 years in a Austrian dungeon. He was released after less than a year. Here is one of the last true heroes of the West in an apearance for Norwegian: televisionhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkizDpl7x_E
http://www.scrapbookpages.com/DachauScrapBook/DachauPhotos/OldPhotos/MajdanekStains.jpg
You can easily discern the stains of prussian blue (HCN or Zyklon-B) on the wall.
Holocaust proven? Not so fast.
These gas chambers were used to kill lice in the clothes of the camp inmates. Not only the Germans but also the Japanese and Americans used these kind of facilities. They were intended to save lives.
Comes Fred Leuchter. He was the number one American gas chamber expert. He had constructed gas chambers for the American government as a way to execute criminals. He was the one who travelled to auschwitz to take some samples from the walls that suposedly had been gas chamers to kill humans.
Result: no traces of cyanide whatsoever.
It was the Leuchter report that changed the opinion of British world renowned WW2 historian David Irving about the holocaust. It cost him dearly. Recently he was sentenced for 3 years in a Austrian dungeon. He was released after less than a year. Here is one of the last true heroes of the West in an apearance for Norwegian: televisionhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkizDpl7x_E
headscratcher4
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You know that the Leuchter "study" is a joke don't you? It has little to no scientific credibility...nor did Leuchter.
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