Electric universe theories here.

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Empirical Evidence

It is astonishing that those of you who believe in black holes, dark matter, inflation etc., have never seen empirical evidence of those mathematical constructions, ...
Wrong already and the first sentence isn't even done. Too bad. Well, you want empirical evidence for black holes? As I already said elsewhere ...
Easy. The key thing to realize here is that every manner of massive compact objects known or proposed (including the elusive MECO) has a hard surface, except for black holes. Matter falling onto anything except a black hole will encounter that hard surface and react accordingly. But in the case of the black hole, anything falling in simply falls through the event horizon and disappears. So the presence or absence of an event horizon can be distinguished observationally by examining the flare behavior of massive objects. Such observations have been carried out now for many years and the evidence for the presence of event horizons is now quite strong.

Here are a few references. These papers and the citations thereto should give you enough to chew on for a while. I have not checked to see if any of them are duplicates of those already mentioned by Sol Invictus.
Another way to observationally distinguish a black hole is to observe its "shadow" as predicted by general relativity. But that requires higher resolution observations than we can currently do, though it may be doable in the foreseeable future, for the supermassive black hole at the center of the Milky Way (Falcke, et al., 2001).
And on inflation ...
Inflation is a testable hypothesis. Your assertion to the contrary, as an excuse for declaring it unscientific is a factually false statement. See, i.e., Mikheeva, 20008; Lesgourgues & Valkenburg, 2007; Alabidi & Lyth, 2006; Lidsey & Seery, 2006 ... Liddle, 1999.
There is in fact a wealth of empirical evidence for all the things you mention. Now ...
... yet utterly reject detailed images as completely without merit when they are readily available on various government/industry websites.
Wrong again. Nobody rejects the images, but we only take care to note that they are what they are, and neither more nor less than that. We do reject interpretations of the images which make little sense even in the context of the image, and otherwise strongly violate the laws of physics. So, why don't you tell us why we should line up like gullible fools to believe an interpretation that obviously violates even the most sacred fundamental laws of physics? Or maybe you will now provide detailed corrections, and explain where the "laws of physics" are wrong?

You are the modern day equivalent to the church officials who wouldn't look through Galileo's telescope.
Actually, I think that description fits Mozina far better than anyone else around. He is, after all, the one who consistently & constantly rejects all arguments, all evidence of any kind, which conflicts with his built in pre-conceptions.

You're worse, you've seen the image and say it isn't there.
Wrong again. Of course the image is there. It's the interpretation we disagree with.

From your venom, I'd say if you could, you'd burn Mozina like Bruno.
If you think this is bad, you need to hang around a few of the less disciplined discussion boards. This is tame stuff around here. Like Truman said, if you can't take the heat, just get out of the kitchen.

At the very least these images demand more investigation.
No they don't.

At the most they shred the standard model.
In yer dreams.

How could it be so wrong?
It isn't.

Is G a charge variable.
No

Gee zeus! look out for your grants.
I'm retired. No grants for me to worry about. It doesn't matter anyway, only the uninformed outsiders think it matters what you believe to get a grant. Those of us who have worked on the inside understand that random chance is a far more important ally!
 
hmmm. Answers to this post by tim would be nice. I'm too drunk at the mo (just got back in from a night out) to make any sense out of it, but he appears to have shown quite a lot of evidence to argue his case.
 
... yet utterly reject detailed images as completely without merit when they are readily available on various government/industry websites.
Wrong again. Nobody rejects the images, but we only take care to note that they are what they are, and neither more nor less than that. We do reject interpretations of the images which make little sense even in the context of the image, and otherwise strongly violate the laws of physics. So, why don't you tell us why we should line up like gullible fools to believe an interpretation that obviously violates even the most sacred fundamental laws of physics? Or maybe you will now provide detailed corrections, and explain where the "laws of physics" are wrong?


Yes, bhrobards, please do. Because Michael desperately needs your help here. You see, in all his years of trying to get people to accept his interpretation of his sacred images, he hasn't been able to convince a single person, certainly not anyone working in any field even remotely related to physics. Please explain where the laws of physics are wrong. After all, that truly is what it would take to make Michael's interpretation correct.

And imagine this. There's a Nobel prize waiting for you if you can do it. You could snatch it right out from Michael's eminent grasp! :)
 
hmmm. Answers to this post by tim would be nice. I'm too drunk at the mo (just got back in from a night out) to make any sense out of it, but he appears to have shown quite a lot of evidence to argue his case.
No answers are needed.
bhrobards just displayed his ignorance of the evidence for black holes, dark matter and inflation.

He seems to have a similar attitude to MM - "The images have features that look like things that I expected. Thus the images contain those things.". If bhrobards expected to see McDonald's arches in the images, saw McDonald's arches (e.g. double coronal loops) then there are McDonald outlets on the Sun!
 
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Gee, will wonders never cease. You really are an enigma on many levels. In some ways your understanding is quite good. On other levels you reject Alfven's work on solar theory almost completely. Things never seem to quite add up with you. Thanks for the support on this issue at least.

Enigma is my middle name.
I only reject parts of Alfvén's work which have been shown to be incorrect.
I am not rejecting his "short circuit" in a coronal loop, but I do stress that this has to do with the "unwinding" of the loops, as described in detail by Raadu in section 10 [rul=http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1989PhR...178...25R]of this paper[/url] where he discusses both A&C's model for solar flares and the Kaastra model of solar flares (figure 9).
I reject his dismissal of the "frozen-in condition" of the magnetic field, because is has been shown in measurements in space that that condition is well fulfilled for many processes taking place in space. (However I do realize that when he made that comment, the general attitude in space and plasma astrophysics was to unarguably claim frozen-in field, and not look whether the conditions like diffusion time vs. process time were fulfilled).

Sure, but it's a current carrying Bennett Pinch thread driven by the current flow inside the rope, and the *total circuit energy* according to Alfven.

This does not make sense, to say it is a curent carrying Bennett pinch as there cannot be a Bennett pinch if there is no current. The current comes first, the pinch might come later. (you are probably confused by the current carrying and non current carrying double layers, which are indeed different species).
However, the "total circuit energy" (whatever that is, please define this better, but I take it to be like I L2) is not all there is, there is magnetic tension too in this process which is not included in this "total circuit energy."

The are common in all types of current carrying plasma, from the ordinary plasma ball on my desk, to the plasmas in space. These are indeed "ordinary" processes and very "natural" processes in current carrying plasma.

It is NOT the same as a plasma ball, i.e. the breakdown of a dielectric.

Ok, as long as we're both clear that the "flux" is *electro*magnetic energy, I agree.

I have not got the foggiest what you mean by "*electro*magnetic energy. It is magnetic flux that is talked about, a magnetic flux tube that enters the Earth's magnetosphere. That is why it is called a flux transfer event, the magnetic flux gets transferred from the solar wind to the magnetosphere. That is the definition, and whatever other processes may or may not occur are irrelevant for the definition of said process.

Then the next message:
And? This is where that enigma thing comes in. You should at least acknowledge that he compared the whole thing to the sun.

Well, for one, the strongly magnetized terrella was a model to explain (incorrectly) the rings of Saturn. Only when he reduced the magnetization (loops disappearing, streamers now being the main thing) did he start to say it might be like the sun, in order to find the zodiacal light (which basically is explained by dust and not by "particles in an electrical state that they can reflect sunlight") and then he claims that it looks like the corona.

We do have a "ring around the sun" of a flowing sort. It's called a Parker's Spiral. It's not a "ring" per se, but a "flow pattern" created by the current flowing toward the heliosphere and the rotation of the sun. If anything Birkeland seemed to underestimate the amount of material

Yes/No. That is not what Birkeland claims in the text that I quoted. He talks about emissions of "coronium" and that there is a RING which is also clear in his pictures. In no way at all does he claim on those pages that he is talking about a "solar wind", he is talking about a steady ring of particles around the terrella which he calls the corona.

As he was well aware that corpuscules were flying from the Sun to the Earth, I am sure he would have said that this could be these corpuscules, but he does not. He tries to explain, as an aside, the cororna. And it MUST be a steady ring, because otherwise his further calculations (on the pages that come after the pretty pictures) do not make sense, as he tries to show there how particles that are ejected from the Sun, can reach orbits and then somehow create the planets. That is what it is all about in my opinion.


Well, if might be less than convincing if he wasn't right about their existence in the solar atmosphere. Yes, it could be less than convincing had he been wrong, but the loops at least turn out to be a "successful prediction" of his model.

Existence of what exactly? The loops were not supposed to be the Sun, and as I read it, he never claims that those loops are the Sun, they are his idea about how the rings of Saturn are created.
 
However if you posit that what is leaving the sun is "electricity" that doesnt become thermal(photon) energy until it interacts with matter, I think that would solve the problem.

"electricity" is not a scientifically clear term. this can mean anything. if you want to posit anything, you should at least use workable terms.
 
It is astonishing that those of you who believe in black holes, dark matter, inflation etc., have never seen empirical evidence of those mathematical constructions, yet utterly reject detailed images as completely without merit when they are readily available on various government/industry websites. You are the modern day equivalent to the church officials who wouldn't look through Galileo's telescope. You're worse, you've seen the image and say it isn't there. From your venom, I'd say if you could, you'd burn Mozina like Bruno. At the very least these images demand more investigation. At the most they shred the standard model. How could it be so wrong? Is G a charge variable. Gee zeus! look out for your grants.

No one of the mainstream gang here is rejecting any images (I guess you mean the SOHO images, or the pictures by Birkeland or whatever, you might be a bit more specific). However, we do reject the misinterpretation of said images by Michael Mozina, Zeuzzz and Sol88.

Now, if you would like to clarify your stance, by showing which images you mean, and what processes you think are happening, that would be very welcome. We will not burn you yet, but you are already standing on the wood pile.

It's like, we don't believe the views by Herschell and his contemporates either anymore, that sunspots are holes in the cloud cover around the big planet that is underneath it. They even claimed that they could see landscapes through the "holes in the clouds" (See e.g. Chapter 2 of "The Sun Kings" by Stuart Clark). Observations are good, and are the starting point for anything in astrophysics, but the interpretation of the images can only be done well, when one knows about the details of the possible processes and how the data handling has been done. Michael Mozina has not shown he is very capable in either of these two points.

And by the way, welcome!

Ah, and I just saw that Tim Thompson basically told you the same.
 
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Bump.

I've asked you to quantify your ideas. You repeatedly refuse, even though such a task is easy. Very well, I shall endeavor to do so for you.

I did the calculations for you, Michael. Did I do any of them wrong? If so, point me to my errors. If not, doesn't this indicate that your ideas about a solid layer of the sun staying cooler than 6000 K are absurd? Time to man up, Michael. Your ideas have been subjected to quantitative scrutiny, and they have collapsed into absurdity.
 
Bump.



I did the calculations for you, Michael. Did I do any of them wrong? If so, point me to my errors. If not, doesn't this indicate that your ideas about a solid layer of the sun staying cooler than 6000 K are absurd? Time to man up, Michael. Your ideas have been subjected to quantitative scrutiny, and they have collapsed into absurdity.

HAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You're not really expecting MM to do MATH!?!?!?!?!
He cannot even point out where Birkeland does his math, let alone he will check your math.
Asking direct, quantifiable explanations from MM is useless, he only wants to rant and make more assumptions in his models than there are stars in a galaxy and then complain about mainstream physics making justified assumptions.
I would advise not to hold your breath, getting a real answer.
 
MM and math

I'll be damned, all that snipping and not a shred of substantive response left. Just another temper tantrum and more lies. Who coulda knowed?

Christ, Michael, don't you find it the least bit odd that after over 1300 of your mostly nonsensical posts here, not a single person even remotely agrees that you're seeing solid physical things in running difference images? Nobody. I'm asking seriously. Doesn't your disconnect with reality even concern you a little bit?

And isn't it strange that everyone, every single person who has ventured an opinion, understands me and fundamentally agrees that I am correct in my explanation? Everyone. Don't you consider the possibility that your mental health might be suffering when you see things nobody else sees? You'd talk to a mental health professional if you were hearing things nobody else was hearing, wouldn't you? Again, I'm asking seriously.

You say these people accept what I say as true because I'm vastly superior at persuading people, which I agree is clearly the case. But don't you ever stop to seriously consider it's also because I'm right and you're wrong.

Now if you truly want to show people that Dr. Hurlburt and I are wrong, you should seriously address the issues I raised in posts #806, #819, and #829. If you really have any more than your big mouth and a crackpot delusion, don't be such a puss. Get down to the business of supporting your insane fantasy already.

ETA: I see there is one person, brantc, who is obviously as capable of supporting his position as you are, Michael. It looks like a solid surface to him, therefore he believes it is solid. But even he admits that his observational evidence is in his mind! :)
MM has been asked, many times, in many different threads, over a period of many months, to write a post or three which shows that he can do the math (relevant to some aspect of his claims).

AFAIK, despite being repeatedly asked and reminded, he has not done so; nor has he presented, unasked, quantitative material in support of his claims.

Somewhere, recently, MM made a claim that he'd presented some quantitative calculations on another internet discussion forum, or forums, but he did not indicate which, or when.

I had a quick look through the links you provided, in an earlier post, and couldn't find anything like this.

From your more intimate (shall we say) knowledge of his posts in other fora, GeeMack, are you aware of any math/quantitative presentations (etc) that he has made? If so, do you recall what it/they was/were about?

It seems to me that without doing some math directly relevant to MM's claims, no progress can be made ...
 
MM has been asked, many times, in many different threads, over a period of many months, to write a post or three which shows that he can do the math (relevant to some aspect of his claims).

AFAIK, despite being repeatedly asked and reminded, he has not done so; nor has he presented, unasked, quantitative material in support of his claims.

Somewhere, recently, MM made a claim that he'd presented some quantitative calculations on another internet discussion forum, or forums, but he did not indicate which, or when.

I had a quick look through the links you provided, in an earlier post, and couldn't find anything like this.

From your more intimate (shall we say) knowledge of his posts in other fora, GeeMack, are you aware of any math/quantitative presentations (etc) that he has made? If so, do you recall what it/they was/were about?

It seems to me that without doing some math directly relevant to MM's claims, no progress can be made ...


I seem to recall one time when Michael copied and pasted Planck's Law in a posting on the BAUT Forum, but a cursory search doesn't turn up the posting. I do believe it was only tangentially relevant to what was being discussed, and he didn't seem to understand what it was about anyway. It also seems he regularly referred back to that individual effort when others asked him to show numbers to support his nutty conjectures. I do remember that on both BAUT and SFN he pointed to that one copy/paste and claimed that since he had done some math before, he was off the hook to "bark math on command" ever again.

He has been asked over and over again to quantitatively describe his solid surface in terms of elemental composition, thermal characteristics, density, thickness, and other factors that are critical to supporting such a crazy notion. Not one single time do I ever recall him using an actual number. We've seen it here for well over a thousand of his postings. Very thick, *HOT*, thinner, more than, less than, faster, denser, all over the place, and such descriptive terms. But never a number. He seems to enjoy his fantasy immensely, you know, talking all sciency and stuff. Numbers would destroy it. He can't risk bringing them into the fold.

Here is a small sampling of Michael's comments from the BAUT forum regarding math and calculations and numbers. These are typical of his responses to legitimate questions from users going by recognizable names like Nereid, Tim Thompson, Baloo, and many others. This was about October of 2005. Nothing has changed. Michael seems to literally despise numbers. They scare him. He has been claiming for years that he's on the edge of providing some quantitative support for his harebrained delusion. But to date, he hasn't shown that he's even capable of balancing his checkbook.

Michael Mozina said:
(Posted here on the BAUT Forum. This one has a guess, a physically impossible temperature for the surface of the Sun.) I will ultimately take a stab at the math related to RANGES of possiblities as it relates to density. It may be a while before I'm ready, but I will ask Nereid to reopen that thread when I am ready. It's not my first priority however. First I'd like to demonstrate what I can actually demonstrate with real data. Then I will take a stab the density problem. I'm still debating movement models in my own mind at the moment. When I've picked a "favorite", I'll work on that again for you.

Michael Mozina said:
(Posted here on the BAUT Forum.) I can and do change my mind all the time. I used to think the sun was made of gas. I no longer believe that. I used to believe there was a fusion core. I changed my mind. I can and do change my mind, but I need a good reason to do so. If you think you can explain the images better using math and the gas model, I'll consider your math. I'm open to mathematical formulas that fit the bill here, which is why I liked the work of Dr. Bruce. I don't see the point however in duplicating his work. I trust Dr. Manuel's math too, but nobody seems to put much credence in that math. Why would I thing a mathematical representation of anything is going to sway you one way or the other? What mathematic representation would convince you instantly that I was right and the gas model is wrong?

Michael Mozina said:
(Posted here on the BAUT Forum.) It takes a bit more time and effort to spend 15 years of so studying satellite images to and be able to explain them all, and show how they all tie together. I've done just that. I didn't do it over a weekend, or over a year, but I've studied the sun for decades of my life, and particularly through satellite imagery. There are no math formulas that are going to precisely explain these images. At best they will be approximations of a theoretical method to explain the phenomenon.

Michael Mozina said:
(Posted here on the BAUT Forum. This one shows a line of copy/paste that has real numbers in it.) Actually, I do intend to provide some math, specifically the density RANGE calculations. I'm still playing with movement models, but it seems like everyone want a math formula and I can't think of a better place to give you one at the moment. Even still, Bruce put forth all sorts of math. So did Manuel. Not many folks listened to them. What makes you think a couple of math formulas from me are going to make a big difference here exactly?


If it wasn't so obvious he's being intentionally ignorant to avoid having to acknowledge his own failure, it might actually be good comedy. But I'm afraid this stuff is for real. Kind of pathetic, actually.

And every so often this thread can do with a review of Michael's history on these subjects...

Oh, man. You asked for it. This has been going on for years, since 2002 at least. Here's a compendium, a virtual cornucopia of Michael's "Surface of the Sun" antics. [...]

Bad Astronomy and Universe Today Forum...
8 pages, 30 posts per page...

13 pages, 30 posts per page...

14 pages, 30 posts per page...

12 pages, 30 posts per page...

Sockpuppet: ManInTheMirror - 4 pages, 30 posts per page...

Sockpuppet: ManInTheMirror - 36 pages, 30 posts per page...

Einstein@Home forum at the University of Wisconsin at Milwaukee...

Over 3,000 postings over at the Skeptic Friends Network...
 
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Outstanding questions for Micheal Mozina

The remarks about Micheal Mozina's hand waving and lack of mathematics reminded me of the list of questions that I have still not got answers to.
These are some of the questions that MM has been asked and seems incapable of answering other than by spouting unsupported assertions.

The perpetual dark matter question:
How are these items of evidence for dark matter incorrect?
(first asked 23rd June 2009).

What is the amount of 171A light emitted by the photosphere and can it be detected?
(first asked 6th July 2009).

A post that seemed to retract his "mountain ranges" on the TRACE 171A RD animation evoked this question:
What discharge rates and processes come from your hypothetical thermodynamically impossible solid iron surface to show up as records of change in the RD animation in the corona.
(first asked 6th July 2009).

From tusenfem:
Where is the the solar wind and the appropriate math in Birkelands book?
(asked 7th July 2009)

Please cite where in his book Birkeland identified fission as the "original current source" and in the same post
Please cite where in his book Birkeland identified a discharge process between the Sun's surface and the heliosphere (about 10 billion kilometers from the Sun).
(first asked 7th July 2009).

Is your solid iron surface thermodynamically possible?
(first asked 8 July 2009).
Also see this post for a fuller explanation of the thermodynamic problems with MM's solid iron surface.

Coronal loops are electrical discharges?
(first asked 10 July 2009).

Can Micheal Mozina answer a simple RD animation question?
(first asked 10 July 2009)

More questions for Michael Mozina about the photosphere optical depth
(First asked 13 July 2009)

Formation of the iron surface
(First asked 13 July 2009)

How much is "mostly neon" MM?
First asked 13 July 2009

Just how useless is the Iron Sun model?
(First asked 13 July 2009)

Coronal loop heating question for Michael Mozina
First asked 13 July 2009

Coronal loop stability question for Michael Mozina
First asked 13 July 2009
He does link to his copy of Alfvén and Carlqvist's 1966 paper (Currents in the Solar Atmosphere and A theory of Solar Flares). This does not model what we now know a real solar flare acts like.

Has the hollow Iron Sun been tested?
First asked 14 July 2009

Is Saturn the Sun?
First asked 14 July 2009
(Birkelands Fig 247a is an analogy for Saturn's rings but MM compares it to to the Sun).

Question about "streams of electrons" for Micheal Mozina
First asked 14 July 2009
MM has one reply in which he mistakenly thinks that this question is about coronal loops.

In addition:
Is your "The Sun is a plasma diffuser that sorts atoms by mass" paper correct when it states that the Trace satellite using a 171 Å filter can see below the photosphere?
If so can you cite the paper or textbook that proves this because there are plenty of textbooks that say this is impossible. The Wikipedia article on the photosphere is quite clear.

All you have to do is show that the optical depth of the Sun's photosphere is at least 4800 kilometres. For a mathematical and physical genius like you this should be really easy :rolleyes:.
Perhaps your co-author O. Manuel did the calculations?
 
What is the temperature above the iron crust in the Iron Sun model

Another question for you Michael Mozina.
First asked 17 July 2009
The Iron Sun model assumes that the iron crust exists 4800 km below the photosphere and so must have an unspecified temperature < 2000 K (otherwise it vaporizes). The top of the photosphere is at a temperature of 5777 K.
Now I know that your Iron Sun idea has no actual predictions but if my guess (from your posts) is that you would assume that the temperature rises from the iron crust to the photosphere. You may even say say that each layer in your idea has a separate, increasing temperature from the preceding one as each element dominates.

But measurements of limb darkening allow astronomers to probe the temperature of the photosphere. What they find is that the temperature increases with depth, e.g. to at least 6400 K and to 9400 K at the lowest observable level according to Tim Thompson's post solid Surface and Photosphere II. This of course will vaporize your iron crust even if the temperature does not increase.

How do you explain the increasing temperature with depth?
 
It is astonishing that those of you who believe in black holes, dark matter, inflation etc., have never seen empirical evidence of those mathematical constructions, yet utterly reject detailed images as completely without merit when they are readily available on various government/industry websites.

That's the part that amazes me as well. The images I have cited are all freely available but getting them to even look at them seems to be like pulling teeth.

You are the modern day equivalent to the church officials who wouldn't look through Galileo's telescope. You're worse, you've seen the image and say it isn't there. From your venom, I'd say if you could, you'd burn Mozina like Bruno. At the very least these images demand more investigation. At the most they shred the standard model. How could it be so wrong? Is G a charge variable. Gee zeus! look out for your grants.

FYI, DRD, tsuenfum and the other clergy here have already burned me at the stake over at BAUT. :)
 
Care to address the numbers behind your own theory, Michael? Come now, don't be shy, I did all the hard work for you already. You don't even have to do math, you just have to look at it.
 
No one of the mainstream gang here is rejecting any images (I guess you mean the SOHO images, or the pictures by Birkeland or whatever, you might be a bit more specific). However, we do reject the misinterpretation of said images by Michael Mozina, Zeuzzz and Sol88.

The obvious problem is that you never actually dealt with the images or any of the details we see in the images! You simply ignore them. I can't even get *ANYONE* to even comment on the DVD images that support my position, even when I picked out three specific events and told you where to find them. As long as you ignore the visual evidence entirely, what is there to discuss?

Now, if you would like to clarify your stance, by showing which images you mean, and what processes you think are happening, that would be very welcome. We will not burn you yet, but you are already standing on the wood pile.

How about you start by explaining the persistent features in the RD and Doppler images and peeling effect we see during the RD video? How about that Doppler image? Where is that "rigid" feature, under or over the wave in the photosphere? How about those three DVD images like that one at 30:04 where we can see the coronal loops in white light poking through the photosphere and lighting up the surface of the photosphere at the bases of the loops? How about dealing with *ANY* detail of *ANY* image?

It's like, we don't believe the views by Herschell and his contemporates either anymore, that sunspots are holes in the cloud cover around the big planet that is underneath it.

Oddly enough, when I read his work recently and how he arrived at that conclusion, his analysis of sunspots was almost identical to my own analysis. Now of course I didn't base the whole idea of a crust on the photosphere images or what I could make out inside the sunspot, but all things considered, his analysis of sunspots was highly accurate and very similar to my own thinking processes. Why is that? I had not even read his material until just recently by the way so there was no specific connection between us that would explain why or how we came to the same conclusions.

They even claimed that they could see landscapes through the "holes in the clouds" (See e.g. Chapter 2 of "The Sun Kings" by Stuart Clark).

But of course you reject that idea with a handwave even with the RD and Doppler images of persistent features?

Observations are good, and are the starting point for anything in astrophysics, but the interpretation of the images can only be done well, when one knows about the details of the possible processes and how the data handling has been done. Michael Mozina has not shown he is very capable in either of these two points.

That's rather funny coming from you since you've never personally touched a single detail of any of the images on my website. Not one single detail. Only RC managed to make a single useful comment related to cause/effect relationships related to any of the images, and all he managed to figure out is that the CME spewed plasma. Wow, what a detailed analysis.
jaw-dropping.gif
 
Enigma is my middle name.
I only reject parts of Alfvén's work which have been shown to be incorrect.

How exactly did you show his analysis of coronal loops to be "incorrect". Be specific.

I am not rejecting his "short circuit" in a coronal loop, but I do stress that this has to do with the "unwinding" of the loops, as described in detail by Raadu in section 10 [rul=http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1989PhR...178...25R]of this paper[/url] where he discusses both A&C's model for solar flares and the Kaastra model of solar flares (figure 9).

So according to Alfven, the base of the loops would be emitting photons due to current flow. Do you agree with that assessment? He also stated that the loops would come from under the photosphere and have current flowing through them *UNDER* the photosphere. Do you agree or disagree? Have you looked at the DVD images I have cited that show these loops coming up through the photosphere?

I reject his dismissal of the "frozen-in condition" of the magnetic field, because is has been shown in measurements in space that that condition is well fulfilled for many processes taking place in space.

That is absolutely false. There can be no "frozen" plasma in an environment that is composed entirely of light plasma and where coronal loops are current carrying plasma filaments. How do you get "frozen" anything in a environment that is composed of moving particles that cruise through the whole atmosphere at over a million miles per hour?

(However I do realize that when he made that comment, the general attitude in space and plasma astrophysics was to unarguably claim frozen-in field, and not look whether the conditions like diffusion time vs. process time were fulfilled).

Actually he's very clear about where the has merit (like dense plasma), vs. the places it does not apply like the light, current carrying plasma we find in the solar atmosphere.

This does not make sense, to say it is a curent carrying Bennett pinch as there cannot be a Bennett pinch if there is no current. The current comes first, the pinch might come later. (you are probably confused by the current carrying and non current carrying double layers, which are indeed different species).

The current is consistently responsible for those million degree coronal loops. That "pinch" and these emissions are a direct result of the currents that flow through the loop.

However, the "total circuit energy" (whatever that is, please define this better, but I take it to be like I L2) is not all there is, there is magnetic tension too in this process which is not included in this "total circuit energy."

At the point of "short circuit" (not magnetic reconnection) the TOTAL circuit energy determines the amount of energy released at the point of the short circuit. It is not driven by "magnetic reconnection" because the magnetic field drops to zero at a null point and the magnetic field has absolutely no energy whatsoever at a null point. The only thing that could or would release high energy particles at a any short circuit point in the loop the *CURRENT FLOW* that is running through those filaments.
 
Thanks GeeMack.

It's interesting that the simplest, most powerful step MM could take to address this issue would be to do a simple back-of-the-envelope calculation, concerning a key aspect of his idea, and post it.

Yet, in all the years, and tens of thousands of posts, he has not once actually done that.

Now if MM won't - or, perhaps, can't - do even the simplest calculation (or quantification), how could any discussion of his ideas get anywhere?
 
Another question for you Michael Mozina.
First asked 17 July 2009
The Iron Sun model assumes that the iron crust exists 4800 km below the photosphere and so must have an unspecified temperature < 2000 K (otherwise it vaporizes). The top of the photosphere is at a temperature of 5777 K.......
How do you explain the increasing temperature with depth?

How do you explain a sunspot being composed of plasma that is something like 3000 degrees cooler than the surface of the photosphere? Where does that lower temperature plasma come from and how in the world can it be *SO MUCH* cooler than the photosphere?
 
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