Defining/Determining "Living Wage"

Cobalt

Tobikan Judan
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This phrase gets used a lot, though nobody ever has a deep definition for it.

Generally used in the sense of, "companies should have to pay a person a living wage."

I've seen, going by memory alone, "a day's provisions" as being the most rough definition I can think of.


Running with that idea, who is to determine what a day's provisions are? What do said provisions include?

Well, the first thing to come to my mind is "food." Simple enough, yes? Feed someone for a day. But wait, what kind of food, what quality of food? Who is going to determine these criteria? Who should have that power, and why? You could somehow calculate an average, I supposed, using sample groups of people and what they eat throughout the day, though that appears to lead to more problems. What income bracket do you sample? Is there a time of the year people tend to eat better quality/more expensive food?

Now this was just the first thing to come to mind, but what else would go into this determination? I'm curious as to what others will say.
 
I've been a proponent of a living wage myself, but there is one glaring problem with the model I propose: it would require another local level of beaurocracy in every community - i.e. more taxes and more government.

Basically, every town would require a 'department of living standards' whose function it would be to keep track of the essentials, in order to regularly adjust the living wage. I don't think the wage could be adjusted in less than a year's time adequately; quite possibly, adjustments would be rather ad-hoc from year to year. Oh, sure, it would be simple to assign one person the task of food price evaluation, another the task of living quarters evaluation, and so forth; but we all know how local government agencies actually operate. It's usually one person doing the job of ten, swamped with unnecessary bookkeeping and paperwork, and hampered by regulations from every quarter.

As to what should be in a living wage: in my opinion, a single person working a full-time job should earn enough to pay for rent at the lowest cost property that meets health and safety regulations; adequate food to maintain good nutrition at the lowest cost of a menu designed to make well-balanced, nutritious meals; electricity for a household operating basic equipment; heating and cooling costs; transportation (this could be no more than bus fare for cities with buses, up to the cost of fuel to travel from one end of the city to another); basic medical needs (assuming the person is on public medical insurance); an allotment for personal non-food needs (hygeine essentials, etc.); and a percent that covers taxation and fees that a person is required to pay (for example, water bills, residential tax, garbage, etc.)

This living wage would be just that - not enough to buy luxury items, pay for entertainment, splurge on fancy dinners or eating out, buying cars, etc. Those things should be available as one earns a greater-than-living wage, either by gaining better jobs, getting promotions, working two jobs, etc.

So for my notional agency, I think you'd need a nutritionist (at least one at the national level to write policy on what constitutes a reasonable menu), someone to determine standards for safe and healthy living environments (again, at a national level at least), an energy analyst to determine what kind of electrical/gas use is acceptable, transportation experts who can determine the lowest cost of transporting someone to and from work (not counting walking), and other experts as needed by region. You'd need a staff that works the local stores to determine costs for basic food items from the menu, a staff that visits and monitors rental properties and available housing, a staff that keeps track of energy costs and other fees and taxes, and so forth.

A minimum living wage should NOT take into account people living at home, people being fed by their families, people driving (though, in some areas, no other method of transportation is available, and driving should be considered then), carpooling, people living 'off the grid' (generators, wells, small farms), and so forth.

If you work in a job full-time, even at minimum wage, you should be able to survive by yourself. Too many people have the attitude that minimum wage jobs are only for teenagers living at home with mom and dad. Look at any min-wage job, and you'll see a LOT of other people - adults, people with families, etc - trying to make it on these jobs.

I also don't think families should be taken into account with living-wage jobs. The family isn't working the job; the individual is. Enforcing such a standard might be another incentive for people to wait before starting families until they've surpassed the living-wage income level.

But as I said above, in order to implement and enforce a living wage, we'd have to add yet another tax-funded beaurocratic level. Sure, this means more jobs nationwide; it also means more costs nationwide. And unless they're going to try to project costs, every living wage increase would be at least a few months, if not a year or more, behind the actual living wage. Working with cost projections is tricky, as costs sometimes exceed projections, and sometimes lag; the living wage would be a hard target to hit.

One possible method to counter this would be to make the living wage sustenance plus a percent, but again, that percent might not always match actual cost increases. It might also exceed actual cost increases, and the motivation here is to match wages to expenses as closely as possible.

Another problem I see in this is that the lowest-available costs aren't always going to be available. If the lowest-cost rental in town is $400 a month, but only two units are available, and the next lowest-cost rental is $1000 a month, setting the rental wage at $400 is going to leave all but two people far behind on being able to meet their bills. One possible angle to work on this is to also have a staff whose function it is to determine how many employees are at living-wage level in their area, so as to determine the lowest cost at which all living-wage earners can gain housing; again, though, this is more difficulty to add into an already difficult system, and doesn't take into account those who already possess lower-cost housing.

Plus, the entire system would be subject to the whims of the politicians, who would undoubtably push their own agendas. Liberals would want entertainment or spiritual considerations added into the wage, or would push for an increase for 'morality-boosting' activities; conservatives would demand that measured costs were deliberately being padded or that we should exclude housing because we already have welfare-based housing in place, etc.

IMO, welfare shouldn't be included, because the goal should be to get everyone off of welfare, if possible; but that's unrealistic, and I know it.

If we could remove politicians from the picture, I'm positive that, with some effort and a large expenditure of taxpayer money, we could come up with a working system to maintain living wages; but that's never going to happen.

So as much as I'm for a living wage, I'm also quite aware that it's not a feasible idea.
 
Running with that idea, who is to determine what a day's provisions are? What do said provisions include?

Adequate nutrition and calorie count to maintain health. That's not a particularly difficult concept; that's what, for example, prisons are legally required to provide to their prisoners and POW camps are legally required to provide to their POWs.


Well, the first thing to come to my mind is "food." Simple enough, yes? Feed someone for a day. But wait, what kind of food, what quality of food? Who is going to determine these criteria?

Doctors and nutritionists would be a good starting point.

Now this was just the first thing to come to mind, but what else would go into this determination? I'm curious as to what others will say.

Shelter, heat, clothing, hygiene facilities and other 'necessities'; a civilized country would include luxuries like transportation to and from work (via public transit) and possibly a certain amount of entertainment allowance. Again, there are legal minimums for what constitutes "shelter" as defined by local codes (for example, I think California defines seventy square feet as the minimum size for a "bedroom").

Again, the prison system provides a useful benchmark. If someone is forced through economic hardship to live in conditions that would be illegal for a prison to supply (and there's a lot of case law establishing this), then they don't have a "living wage"; a civilized country would want to aim higher than this.
 
Shelter, heat, clothing, hygiene facilities and other 'necessities'; a civilized country would include luxuries like transportation to and from work (via public transit) and possibly a certain amount of entertainment allowance. Again, there are legal minimums for what constitutes "shelter" as defined by local codes (for example, I think California defines seventy square feet as the minimum size for a "bedroom").

Here's where the problem starts: you mention the possibility of an 'entertainment allowance'; I denied one. So who determines what should and should not be included? Politicians or popular vote - and if left to politicians, it'll be all messed up; if left to popular vote, 'living wage' will be more accurately a 'luxury wage'.

Again, the prison system provides a useful benchmark. If someone is forced through economic hardship to live in conditions that would be illegal for a prison to supply (and there's a lot of case law establishing this), then they don't have a "living wage"; a civilized country would want to aim higher than this.

The trick is, how much higher?

And Patrick R., no, a living wage is not what the individual is willing to accept. A living wage is a wage at which a person can meet their basic needs while working full-time.

People often accept things that are harmful or detrimental to them, or justify accepting a lower-than-acceptable wage on the hope of finding better work, a second job, or simply 'it's the only job I can get - it's better than not working'.

People should be rewarded for putting in full-time work by having their needs met. An employer's duty should be to provide housing, food, medical care, etc. This is met by providing a wage that covers these needs.

Personally, I'd like to give employers an option: pay a living wage, or provide for their needs directly. Heck, I'd go to work for someone who offered me housing, food, medical care, heat/cooling, basic hygeine items, and transportation. I'd work there gratefully, and probably do a better job for being cared for... as long as these things were provided adequately.

Oh, yeah, I did do that - the Army. And they paid me some blow money on top of it. :D
 
Here's where the problem starts: you mention the possibility of an 'entertainment allowance'; I denied one. So who determines what should and should not be included?

Politicians, ultimately. "Living wage" is a political question and therefore this will of necessity be determined via the political process.

In this regard, it's no different than minimum wage laws or social security; there are pressure groups of all types trying to pressure the government into making changes.

Personally, I'd like to give employers an option: pay a living wage, or provide for their needs directly. Heck, I'd go to work for someone who offered me housing, food, medical care, heat/cooling, basic hygeine items, and transportation. I'd work there gratefully, and probably do a better job for being cared for... as long as these things were provided adequately.

Oh, yeah, I did do that - the Army. And they paid me some blow money on top of it. :D

There's another answer to how to establish a "living wage," if you like. If we establish that the basic "living wage" is higher than soldiers make during basic training, then the politicians have probably set the bar too high (and "economy" minded politicians should have no problem pointing this out in election campaigns). If the living wage is less than what prisoners live on, so that people have incentive to commit crime and thereby get a better standard of living, then that's something that human-rights minded politicians can point out.

Eventually a compromise will get hammered out that satisfies no one and infuriates no one either.
 
And Patrick R., no, a living wage is not what the individual is willing to accept. A living wage is a wage at which a person can meet their basic needs while working full-time.

Which would be whatever wage you are willing to accept.

Don't tell me you would be willing to accept a wage lower than what you need to survive? Or a wage that is lower than your productive value?
 
Which would be whatever wage you are willing to accept.

Don't tell me you would be willing to accept a wage lower than what you need to survive? Or a wage that is lower than your productive value?

People do both. Check out _Nickeled and Dimed_ for several case studies.
 
Which would be whatever wage you are willing to accept.

Don't tell me you would be willing to accept a wage lower than what you need to survive? Or a wage that is lower than your productive value?

Flawed assumption of libertarianism #247: All economic actors are rational economic actors.
 
People do both. Check out _Nickeled and Dimed_ for several case studies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scratch_Beginnings

Check out Scratch Beginnings

“ I am going to start – almost literally from scratch - with one 8' x 10' tarp, a sleeping bag, an empty gym bag, $25, and the clothes on my back. Via train, I will be dropped at a random place somewhere in the southeastern United States that is not in my home state of North Carolina. I have 365 days to become free of the realities of homelessness and become a “regular” member of society. After one year, for my project to be considered successful, I have to possess an operable automobile, live in a furnished apartment (alone or with a roommate), have $2500 in cash, and, most importantly, I have to be in a position in which I can continue to improve my circumstances by either going to school or starting my own business. ”

In achievement of his goal, Shepard resolved not to use his college education, credit history, or any of his previous contacts to help himself. Additionally, he would not beg for money or use services that were not available to others.
Unlike Barbara in Nickled and Dimed he didn't live out of hotels and buy more expensive stuff. He actually lived and scrapped by, saved money and even bought himself a truck. He went from living in a shelter to having an apartment. Barbara wasn't Nickled and Dimed she was a fraud trying to maintain a standard of living well above what income she was earning.
 
Flawed assumption of libertarianism #247: All economic actors are rational economic actors.

People are, as far as I can tell rational actors. We take the information that is available and try to make the best choice of ourselves using that information.

So yes, a living wage is the wage you are willing to accept.
 
Which would be whatever wage you are willing to accept.

Don't tell me you would be willing to accept a wage lower than what you need to survive? Or a wage that is lower than your productive value?

People do it all the time for a number of reasons. People take on a job which doesn't give them enough to survive, and they do what they can - usually, welfare, putting off bills, etc. - to reach some minimum level of survival. Usually, it's not enough, so they end up taking a second job or, possibly, turning to crime.

As for productive value, there are many times when you have to take a job that is lower than your productive value. I'm a computer operator by training and experience, but I'm living in an area where computer jobs are few and far between. I cannot leave the area because I'm helping to take care of a very sick father-in-law. When I first came here, there were no computer jobs available.

Thanks to some injuries in the Army, I'm unsuited for manual labor; but even if I were healthy as a horse, there are nearly no manual labor jobs here, either. The job market fell apart in our area almost entirely. There are two factories, who hire on a regular basis, but neither offered me employment. One said I was over-qualified (i.e. wouldn't permit me to take a job beneath my productivity level); the other had qualifications based on mental level that I exceeded (i.e. they primarily hire mentally disadvantaged people).

So I ended up working in a convenience store. Definitely far below my productivity level. It was the only thing available, though. Within one year of starting, I had been trained as an assistant manager and increased my wages by nearly a dollar an hour, but this is still far below my productivity level.

Fortunately for me, I have access to college monies that I had not yet used, so I decided that, rather than working, I would go to college while taking care of my dying father-in-law, let the state support me, and once I'm done with college (assuming I no longer have to be here), I'll move somewhere where jobs are more plentiful in my field. But even then, there's always the possibility that the number of people competing for the jobs will mean I'll be forced to (at least temporarily) take a lower-wage job.

Pat, have you worked in a minimum-wage job? What, exactly, is your personal story? You've never, I take it, been faced with a job market where jobs are lacking but the unemployed are numerous? You've never been in a situation where you'd take ANY job just to get a meal and a place to sleep for the night? You sound very naive as to the realities of the world.
 
Who is going to pay this "living wage"? Small businesses who are just getting by and, in some cases, with the owner not taking even a living wage for him/herself? Watch for the cost of just about EVERYTHING to increase. Is it a living wage for one person, or a living wage for a single Mother who is supporting 3 children?
I have only questions, no answers, but am aware that every nickel that goes into someone's pocket has to come out of someone elses.
 
People are, as far as I can tell rational actors.

Really? Samuel Kahneman won a Nobel Prize for his definitive demonstration that they are not.

I guess you know better than the Swedish Academy, then....
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scratch_Beginnings

Check out Scratch Beginnings

“ I am going to start – almost literally from scratch - with one 8' x 10' tarp, a sleeping bag, an empty gym bag, $25, and the clothes on my back. Via train, I will be dropped at a random place somewhere in the southeastern United States that is not in my home state of North Carolina.

That's more than a LOT of people get to start with. Try starting with the clothes on your back - only - in the current job market - especially in North Carolina, where the tourist industry practically collapsed last year (it's recovering now, thank goodness).

He also failed to mention he started with his health, with public notoriety (his web site), and with labor skills that not everyone possesses.

He's a fraud trying to show he had less than what he actually had.


ETA: He also used welfare to achieve his goal. Generally, libertarians are against the use of welfare. It would be more impressive if he hadn't lived in a shelter, used food stamps, and used a local temp labor agency to find employment - all of which are part of our current 'invasive government'. Under an ideal libertarian government, the shelter and food stamps would not exist.

I can't say the same for the local temp labor agency, but several I have had dealings with claimed to get some support from the government in order to reduce unemployment.
 
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This phrase gets used a lot, though nobody ever has a deep definition for it.

Generally used in the sense of, "companies should have to pay a person a living wage."

I've seen, going by memory alone, "a day's provisions" as being the most rough definition I can think of.


Running with that idea, who is to determine what a day's provisions are? What do said provisions include?

Well, the first thing to come to my mind is "food." Simple enough, yes? Feed someone for a day. But wait, what kind of food, what quality of food? Who is going to determine these criteria? Who should have that power, and why? You could somehow calculate an average, I supposed, using sample groups of people and what they eat throughout the day, though that appears to lead to more problems. What income bracket do you sample? Is there a time of the year people tend to eat better quality/more expensive food?

Now this was just the first thing to come to mind, but what else would go into this determination? I'm curious as to what others will say.

in Switzerland the Cantonal or municipal government calculates what the minimal expenses are, this must include a proper apartement (Dependend on the size of family) money for healthcare, clothes and food. and the expences for traveling to work. train ticket or even a car.
every swiss citizen has a right to get that if he is in need, say has no work and is not wealthy.

its exactly the minimum, no extras.
 
in Switzerland the Cantonal or municipal government calculates what the minimal expenses are, this must include a proper apartement (Dependend on the size of family) money for healthcare, clothes and food. and the expences for traveling to work. train ticket or even a car.
every swiss citizen has a right to get that if he is in need, say has no work and is not wealthy.

its exactly the minimum, no extras.

That would be a fine place to start. How large and involved is the beaurocracy involved in running this system, do you know?
 
I am very pragmatic:

There are some people that work full time and are *still* entitled to receive additional social security money - even when they are single.

that means, in fact, that I pay taxes to make a profit for whoever employs these people.

To me, that is clearly wrong.
 
That would be a fine place to start. How large and involved is the beaurocracy involved in running this system, do you know?

See my other post: It happens anyway, since there are people without income that still need the same amount of money.
 

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