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Give autodidacts and independent learners a chance

As senior scientist in an international lab, former lecturer and attendant of scientific conferences I have encountered my share of autodidacts. Almost every week I get an e-mail by persons that have discovered the secret of the universe. Einstein is always wrong, physics has overlooked some important principle... Yada, yada, yada...

It is impossible to deal with these people on a rational basis. They have never learned to admit mistakes and errors. Part of studying is to recognize the fact that almost nobody is as smart as him/herself believes. And admitting a mistake is a virtue and not a disgrace. If you are contradicting mainstream science the likelihood is high that you are mistaken. I have never met a single "autodidact" in real life that was as good as a decent (not even good) MSc in my area of expertise. Never.

Nevertheless for me degrees are quite unimportant. If a young MSc applies for a job, I take the diploma and look for the supervisor. Then I take the phone and get the supervisors opinion. This is how you get a job in particle physics. (Chances are about 50% that I already know the supervisor.) But most of the time the supervisor calls first. "Dear ingoa, I have a bright young physicist looking for a job..."

In fundamental research a degree is more or less a milestone. A sign that tells you to get another job (elsewhere). Which job it will be depends strongly on the backing of your supervisor. In this respect the situation here is similar to what lightfire22000 wants. Knowledge about the quality of a candidate spreads mouth to mouth. But particle physics is a small town. I guess there are less than 20000 particle physicists on earth.

During the last 15 years I have not hired somebody from the street (except secretary and admin people) without recommendations.

That sounds great ingoa.
I don't know all that much about particle physics so I can't comment much.
I'm not talking about all of those people that claim to have the secret of the universe or anything like that. I'm talking about tangible, clear results.

Have you hired people from the street with recommendations?
 
....
I'm not talking about all of those people that claim to have the secret of the universe or anything like that. I'm talking about tangible, clear results.

Have you hired people from the street with recommendations?

Give me results!

Second question. Nope. How should that work? I do not know Wiley Cojote which an applicant cites as a recommendation. I only trust people I know or people that are trusted by people I know.
 
I was denied a permit to run a small salvage operation. I don't know what I want to do, but I'd like to keep it open.
Did you run afoul ofSTCW-95 certification?
The regulations for qualifications of seafarers.

Merchant ships are really expensive, and can sail into other really expensive ships. Some of them can blow up if handled incorrectly.

For a salvage operation you might need divers, my paddy wreck diver certificate does not allow me to do any commercial diving. That makes sense to me as compared to a professional certificate it came out of a vending machine.
 
Did you run afoul ofSTCW-95 certification?
The regulations for qualifications of seafarers.

Merchant ships are really expensive, and can sail into other really expensive ships. Some of them can blow up if handled incorrectly.

For a salvage operation you might need divers, my paddy wreck diver certificate does not allow me to do any commercial diving. That makes sense to me as compared to a professional certificate it came out of a vending machine.

He is not at all clear what he ment by salvage, a salvage yard for example would be different in the qualifications it needs.
 
I was denied a permit to run a small salvage operation.
Let me see guess:

  1. You applied for a salvage permit, but the state wouldn't give you one until you demonstrated your competence.
  2. To demonstrate your competence, the state asked you to produce "test scores", in the form of a certificate earned by passing the relevant test.
  3. You were unable to produce these "test scores".

And now, even though this is exactly how you think it should be: Autodidacts getting hired or not based on their ability to demonstrate their competence by passing tests, you're still here complaining that somehow this system unfairly penalizes you.

While I'm here, I'd like to repeat an earlier question. Hopefully you'll answer it this time: What are your qualifications and test scores, and what jobs are you applying for that these aren't enough?

Finally, I note that you cited examples of autodidacts being given a chance (at CERN and elsewhere in academia). I find this confusing: Why are you giving examples that refute your complaint? If autodidacts really do get hired by CERN, then I would suspect the problem is not that autodidacts don't get fair treatment, but that you haven't actually autodidacted yourself anything particularly employable.
 
Give me results!

Second question. Nope. How should that work? I do not know Wiley Cojote which an applicant cites as a recommendation. I only trust people I know or people that are trusted by people I know.

I'm not currently applying for a job at your lab. I'm not good enough. However, I'd like to be good and better myself and want as much flexibility as possible to do so.
 
Let me see guess:

  1. You applied for a salvage permit, but the state wouldn't give you one until you demonstrated your competence.
  2. To demonstrate your competence, the state asked you to produce "test scores", in the form of a certificate earned by passing the relevant test.
  3. You were unable to produce these "test scores".

And now, even though this is exactly how you think it should be: Autodidacts getting hired or not based on their ability to demonstrate their competence by passing tests, you're still here complaining that somehow this system unfairly penalizes you.

While I'm here, I'd like to repeat an earlier question. Hopefully you'll answer it this time: What are your qualifications and test scores, and what jobs are you applying for that these aren't enough?

Finally, I note that you cited examples of autodidacts being given a chance (at CERN and elsewhere in academia). I find this confusing: Why are you giving examples that refute your complaint? If autodidacts really do get hired by CERN, then I would suspect the problem is not that autodidacts don't get fair treatment, but that you haven't actually autodidacted yourself anything particularly employable.

It was a bad example on my part. Good guess, but no, the town wouldn't give me a permit because of zoning. I thought that they had a low opinion of me because I'm still in school and if they didn't have the mentality that only accredited schools mattered. My mistake and I take full responsibility.

My real reason is that I want education to be more accessible even to people who are considered unqualified by most schools. Unqualified people have a right to become qualified. After falling ill, I became more supportive of free education.

Nevertheless, there's a lot going my way here. For instance, why should a Pharmacy school deny transfer credits to an incoming Freshman or transfer student simply because the courses were at another school, even if they admit that the courses are identical to their own? Why should it be harder to apply as a transfer student than as a Freshman? There's no question of class quality either.

I like the part about CERN. Some of it is good and not meant to be a complaint! Some parts of the current system are good! Other parts are bad!

I haven't autodidacted myself to the point that I'm confident in professions that I'd like to go into. I'm currently unqualified and I'd just like to become qualified.
 
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Correct on all counts Matt! He is both "self-taught" and conventionally taught. He is writing for people who are often self-taught to a large degree.

There aren't always legal barriers. I'm simply against them when there are.
I started the thread largely to praise autodidactism as an effective learning method. By my own fault, it became more about legal barriers. That was not my intention.

At long last I think I see where you're coming from.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be saying (or attempting to, after eleven pages I'm not quite clear what language we're speaking much less what the conversation was about) that an autodidact can hypothetically possess the same, or greater, degree of mastery over a subject as could someone educated conventionally. This seems at least possible, though I must confess that I side with drkitten and don't think it particularly plausible when considered in the aggregate.

I happen to know several autodidacts in the computer programming field, all of whom turned their hobby (programming) into a full-time job through demonstrations of mastery (be it mods for games, hacks for games, Word modules, Excel spreadsheets and so on) of the relevant material. A degree falls into this category, it is a credential - how strong of a credential it is depends upon the degree and issuing university, of course, but it is at least a basic testimonial to your degree of knowledge.

An autodidact not having this particular credential will have to demonstrate knowledge to a potential employer in other ways. Good luck to you in finding these ways, they do exist though often our minds tend to confuse them.

~ Matt
 
At long last I think I see where you're coming from.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be saying (or attempting to, after eleven pages I'm not quite clear what language we're speaking much less what the conversation was about) that an autodidact can hypothetically possess the same, or greater, degree of mastery over a subject as could someone educated conventionally. This seems at least possible, though I must confess that I side with drkitten and don't think it particularly plausible when considered in the aggregate.

I happen to know several autodidacts in the computer programming field, all of whom turned their hobby (programming) into a full-time job through demonstrations of mastery (be it mods for games, hacks for games, Word modules, Excel spreadsheets and so on) of the relevant material. A degree falls into this category, it is a credential - how strong of a credential it is depends upon the degree and issuing university, of course, but it is at least a basic testimonial to your degree of knowledge.

An autodidact not having this particular credential will have to demonstrate knowledge to a potential employer in other ways. Good luck to you in finding these ways, they do exist though often our minds tend to confuse them.

~ Matt

Thanks,

The best cases aren't when one learns all by themselves. I'm not advocating exclusive autodidactism(infliction?), but I'm advocating more ways to become educated. The present system is far too rigid with course caps and extremely specific fields and specializations.

A likely scenario is for people to have some formal training, but also learn and engage in fields in which they do not have formal training. I fear this is diminishing and we need versatility. When IT specialists forget how to solve simultaneous equations, you're in trouble.
 
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It was a bad example on my part. Good guess, but no, the town wouldn't give me a permit because of zoning. I thought that they had a low opinion of me because I'm still in school and if they didn't have the mentality that only accredited schools mattered. My mistake and I take full responsibility.

Accredidation is a small part of what makes a degree from a school useful, what is the most important is the reputation of that school. That is why an MBA from Harvard demand much higher salaries than MBA from some school no one ever heard of.
My real reason is that I want education to be more accessible even to people who are considered unqualified by most schools. Unqualified people have a right to become qualified. After falling ill, I became more supportive of free education.

Broadly they are not being prevented from. My girlfriend went to a collage that has open admissions, so if you have no GED they will help you get one. She went from there to Columbia for a masters degree. She had a friend who was a high school drop out who went to Fordam. So you can get more education with out being qualified, you just might have to take several steps to get where you want to be.

ANd if you are so autodidactic why do you care if school is free or not?

Nevertheless, there's a lot going my way here. For instance, why should a Pharmacy school deny transfer credits to an incoming Freshman or transfer student simply because the courses were at another school, even if they admit that the courses are identical to their own? Why should it be harder to apply as a transfer student than as a Freshman? There's no question of class quality either.

A degree is a school vouching for you, they want you to meet their standards and know that you meet them. It is hard to tell purely from a transcript if the courses are really the same.

So intro classes you will likely get accepted, advanced classes in your feild probably not.
 
My real reason is that I want education to be more accessible even to people who are considered unqualified by most schools.

"Most" schools have open admissions.

Literally. More than 70% of US colleges and universities have better than 95% admission rates. All you need to get in is a (sometimes) high school diploma and/or a GED. Most don't even demand that. And for GED testing, the only requirement is that you NOT hold a high school diploma and be 18 or more (younger than that, and you qualify for free high school.)

So once again, you're complaining about a non-problem.
 
It was a bad example on my part. Good guess, but no, the town wouldn't give me a permit because of zoning. I thought that they had a low opinion of me because I'm still in school and if they didn't have the mentality that only accredited schools mattered. My mistake and I take full responsibility.
Fair enough.

My real reason is that I want education to be more accessible even to people who are considered unqualified by most schools.Unqualified people have a right to become qualified. After falling ill, I became more supportive of free education.
These three sentences contain three profound philosophical differences between you and me:

First, you can only make education so accessible, before the diminishing returns can no longer justify the cost. When you say you "want education to be more accessible even to people who are considered unqualified", I think that you "want to spend a substantial amount of resources to better educate a relatively small number of people". In an ideal world, I would absolutely applaud this policy and vote you in as Supreme Overlord. But in the real world, proposals like this carry significant tradeoffs that need to be seriously considered.

Second, I don't agree that people have a right to become qualified. At best, I'd say that people have a right to the opportunity to become qualified, and that the state (or the community) may have a limited obligation to provide such opportunities. If you want to increase the state's (or the community's) obligation, there are ways to do so, but then you have to start thinking really hard about the real-world tradeoffs I mentioned above.

Finally, there's no such thing as "free education". If you think education is free, either you're ignoring the fact that other people are paying for it, or you're going too easy on yourself (and not actually autodidacting yourself to any useful level), or both.

Nevertheless, there's a lot going my way here. For instance, why should a Pharmacy school deny transfer credits to an incoming Freshman or transfer student simply because the courses were at another school, even if they admit that the courses are identical to their own? Why should it be harder to apply as a transfer student than as a Freshman? There's no question of class quality either.
This seems pretty bizarre. I've never had any trouble transferring credits from one school to another. The process just seems to get easier every time. (I've moved several times, and have taken classes in several places. I've also not been in much of a hurry to get my degree.)

Is it possible that the school in question is poorly managed? When you say "they admit that the courses are identical to their own", what form did this admission take? Was it an admissions clerk at the front desk who told you this? Did you sit down with an academic counselor and inquire about the reasons for this policy? Did you overhear the Dean of admissions say this at a cocktail party?

I've found that in general schools are very open to new students, both freshmen and transfers, and that academic counselors are very open and helpful. If your experience has been different, I'd be inclined to think that it's a problem with that specific school, rather than a problem with the education system as a whole.

I like the part about CERN. Some of it is good and not meant to be a complaint! Some parts of the current system are good! Other parts are bad!
So would you say that CERN does or does not give autodidacts a chance?

I haven't autodidacted myself to the point that I'm confident in professions that I'd like to go into. I'm currently unqualified and I'd just like to become qualified.
Have you considered the possibility that the problem is not that the system isn't tailored to your learning style, but that getting qualified--really, truly qualified at a level that's actually valuable to the rest of your community--is hard, painful work?

It's a rare few lucky people who feel like getting educated is easy and fun. Most of us, even the ones who truly love their profession, have to put in a lot of blood, sweat, and tears to get where we want to be. Real education is hard. If you think you've found an easy way to get educated, you're probably doing it wrong.

It may not be a question of tailoring education to your learning style. Instead, it may be a question of tailoring your expectations to the reality of getting qualified, and adjusting your learning style accordingly.

There are extensive education systems, both public and private, staffed with trained professionals who are dedicated to helping you learn. Why go it alone?
 
If autodidacts are so awesome, why don't they get degrees, then ?
Isn't that the whole point of the OP?

That the mainstream educational method that works well for most people is actually counter-productive, for some small percentage of people, and they are therefore unfairly excluded from all the opportunities offered by a system that focuses on the results of the mainstream educational method--i.e., degrees.
 
Then you're a fool. The equipment that Billy Bob ruined isn't free, you know.

I used to work as a cameraman for a TV studio. Do you have any idea how expensive those cameras are? (Answer -- several tens of thousands of dollars). Do you have any idea how easy they are to break? (Answer -- just point them at the studio lights and watch them burn out.) We're not talking about a job that requires lots of training, but don't let the camera tilt up was an important part of it.

Now, let's look at the physics equipment that Billy Bob is expected to handle. A JEOL JEM-2011 200 kV HRTEM electron microscope runs about $120,000 used.

drkitten,

You're small potatoes. Point them at studio lights, Hah! I was running camera covering the crowd during a very good solar eclipse and didn't have goggles, so I got the bright idea of pointing the camera... well the picture was good for a few seconds (actually it was good forever after, provided I didn't want it to change.):blush::yikes:

Billy Bob is actually my intellectual role model.
 
Isn't that the whole point of the OP?

That the mainstream educational method that works well for most people is actually counter-productive, for some small percentage of people, and they are therefore unfairly excluded from all the opportunities offered by a system that focuses on the results of the mainstream educational method--i.e., degrees.

Well I'm sorry if I can't shed a tear or two for those... but again, if you're that awesome you can demonstrate it and you can get any relevant degree you want.
 
Isn't that the whole point of the OP?

That is probably what the opening poster wants the point to be, although he's managed to make a true dog's breakfast of the actual point.

That the mainstream educational method that works well for most people is actually counter-productive, for some small percentage of people, and they are therefore unfairly excluded from all the opportunities offered by a system that focuses on the results of the mainstream educational method--i.e., degrees.

... and this would be much more heartstring-rendering and tear-jerking if there were a shred of evidence that it were actually true.

So far, the actual evidence presented on this thread has suggested that there is no job at all that you can't get on the basis of knowledge and experience if you're willing to jump through enough hoops to do it. The problem is that most of the jobs under discussion are both difficult and dangerous if messed up, dangerous enough that we don't want half-trained people performing them, and difficult enough that even people who have no trouble in a formal education setting are often unable to do them. (Which, of course, is why the formal specialist programs exist in the first place.)

Any fool can get a college degree. Any fool can even get an accredited college degree. Whether or not you can turn that degree in underwater basketweaving into a PE card or membership at the bar is up to you. The channels exist -- but it's certainly no easier to become an attorney via self-education than it is through formal law school.

Given the percentage of law students who wash out because they can't handle the material, I'm truly astonished that the OP thinks that we should make a special privileged path for those who don't even want to try handling the material....
 

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