Give autodidacts and independent learners a chance

[drkitten]

What studies show it to be a panacea?

Studies published by the Journal of the IAI, among others. Possibly published by Bentham Scientific Publishers, the same group that publishes these scientific journals:

• Anti-Cancer Agents in Medicinal Chemistry
• Anti-Infective Agents in Medicinal Chemistry
• Anti-Inflammatory & Anti-allergy Agents in Medicinal Chemistry
• Cardiovascular & Hematological Disorders - Drug Targets
• Cardiovascular & Hematological Agents in Medicinal Chemistry
• Central Nervous System Agents in Medicinal Chemistry
• CNS & Neurological Disorders - Drug Targets
• Combinatorial Chemistry & High Throughput Screening
• Current Alzheimer Research
• Current Aging Science
• Current Analytical Chemistry

and many more.

 

[ponderingturtle]

What studies show it to be a panacea?

Woo's are always able to find some study. Probably a study of about 10 people unblinded with no control group.

 

[drkitten]

Are you sure?
The current diploma mill certificates get their value from people mistaking them for the real thing.
If there were no real thing they would have no value. Certificate would be a meaningless word.

The problem is that this is obviously untrue. For proof, look at the restaurant/hospitality industry.

Almost every grade-B restaurant I go to has some sort of framed testimonial-advertisement posted on the door or the wall as you walk in. "Listed in Zagrat's!" "Named by the Bugle-Examiner as the best Thai of 2008!" "Four stars in Barefoot Gourmet's Guide to Eating Out!" You get the picture. (I say grade B because the really top restaurants think they detract from the class of the place, and the greasy spoons don't bother.)

There is no "accreditation" or anything like that in the restaurant industry. There are certainly guidebooks and restaurant critics, but no centralized control or oversight. And yet these plaques are demonstrably valuable and people use them as an evaluation tool. Despite the fact that they've never heard of the Bugle-Examiner or the Barefoot Gourmet.

You see the same thing in films. In fact, there are a number of cases of film studios creating fake film critics in order to advertise the film, and many more of film critics accepting bribes in exchange for positive reviews. Again, there's no accreditation for film critics, but the opinions of film critics, even ones that don't exist, are valuable enough to be worth outright forgery.

And my mechanic does the same thing --- as do most mechanics I've visited. Look on the office wall and you'll see various statements about "So-and-so has completed the American Institute of Automotive Mechanical Technicians Advanced Course" (or something). Again, frames and certificates aren't free. Why display them so prominently if they're of no value? I think even my insurance agent had these on his wall, before I switched to an Internet company.

Lightfire's system hinges on testimonials. The problem is that bad testimonials are easier to create and distribute than good ones. Not only are bad testimonials not dependent on the existence of the good ones, but you tend to see a Gresham's law effect going on, where the sea of bad testimonials will "drive out" the good ones from circulation, simply because it's so easy to create another organization of quacks.....

 

[drkitten]

Woo's are always able to find some study.

... and some "peer-reviewed" journal to publish it in.

If necessary, they can simply make it up as they go along.

 

[lightfire22000]

The problem is that this is obviously untrue. For proof, look at the restaurant/hospitality industry.

Almost every grade-B restaurant I go to has some sort of framed testimonial-advertisement posted on the door or the wall as you walk in. "Listed in Zagrat's!" "Named by the Bugle-Examiner as the best Thai of 2008!" "Four stars in Barefoot Gourmet's Guide to Eating Out!" You get the picture. (I say grade B because the really top restaurants think they detract from the class of the place, and the greasy spoons don't bother.)

There is no "accreditation" or anything like that in the restaurant industry. There are certainly guidebooks and restaurant critics, but no centralized control or oversight. And yet these plaques are demonstrably valuable and people use them as an evaluation tool. Despite the fact that they've never heard of the Bugle-Examiner or the Barefoot Gourmet.

You see the same thing in films. In fact, there are a number of cases of film studios creating fake film critics in order to advertise the film, and many more of film critics accepting bribes in exchange for positive reviews. Again, there's no accreditation for film critics, but the opinions of film critics, even ones that don't exist, are valuable enough to be worth outright forgery.

And my mechanic does the same thing --- as do most mechanics I've visited. Look on the office wall and you'll see various statements about "So-and-so has completed the American Institute of Automotive Mechanical Technicians Advanced Course" (or something). Again, frames and certificates aren't free. Why display them so prominently if they're of no value? I think even my insurance agent had these on his wall, before I switched to an Internet company.

Lightfire's system hinges on testimonials. The problem is that bad testimonials are easier to create and distribute than good ones. Not only are bad testimonials not dependent on the existence of the good ones, but you tend to see a Gresham's law effect going on, where the sea of bad testimonials will "drive out" the good ones from circulation, simply because it's so easy to create another organization of quacks.....

It does hinge on testimonials. However, at least mine is plural. Your system hinges on one testimonial, the one from the government. I don't think Gresham's law applies here at all because no one is legally required to accept a "fiat" testimonial. You don't have to hire somebody without an accredited degree if you don't want to. You just shouldn't block them from competing.

 

[Prometheus]

People without accredited degrees are not blocked from competing. They're blocked (or should be!) from pretending they have accredited degrees.

 

[paximperium]

People without accredited degrees are not blocked from competing. They're blocked (or should be!) from pretending they have accredited degrees.

Exactly.
Who would you hire for a job?
Mr Smith with a MSc in Physics from MIT or Mr Billy Bob who never graduated from High School but claims to know Physics?

 

[Cavemonster]

Exactly.
Who would you hire for a job?
Mr Smith with a MSc in Physics from MIT or Mr Billy Bob who never graduated from High School but claims to know Physics?

Oh, but in Lightfire's world, I can pay to maintain an elaborate testing lab, so that every applicant can prove their skills. I'm sure the huge cost in resources and employee time would be made up for if I could discover that Billy Bob is that great diamond in the rough! /s

 

[lightfire22000]

Exactly.
Who would you hire for a job?
Mr Smith with a MSc in Physics from MIT or Mr Billy Bob who never graduated from High School but claims to know Physics?

I certainly wouldn't bar Billy Bob from attempting the job ever and if Billy Bob got results and Mr. Smith faltered, I would hire Billy Bob without hesitation.

You can tell pretty quickly if someone knows what they're doing at least to an extent with test scores and prior experience.

 

[Toke]

The problem is that this is obviously untrue. For proof, look at the restaurant/hospitality industry.

Almost every grade-B restaurant I go to has some sort of framed testimonial-advertisement posted on the door or the wall as you walk in. "Listed in Zagrat's!" "Named by the Bugle-Examiner as the best Thai of 2008!" "Four stars in Barefoot Gourmet's Guide to Eating Out!" You get the picture. (I say grade B because the really top restaurants think they detract from the class of the place, and the greasy spoons don't bother.)

There is no "accreditation" or anything like that in the restaurant industry. There are certainly guidebooks and restaurant critics, but no centralized control or oversight. And yet these plaques are demonstrably valuable and people use them as an evaluation tool. Despite the fact that they've never heard of the Bugle-Examiner or the Barefoot Gourmet.

You see the same thing in films. In fact, there are a number of cases of film studios creating fake film critics in order to advertise the film, and many more of film critics accepting bribes in exchange for positive reviews. Again, there's no accreditation for film critics, but the opinions of film critics, even ones that don't exist, are valuable enough to be worth outright forgery.

And my mechanic does the same thing --- as do most mechanics I've visited. Look on the office wall and you'll see various statements about "So-and-so has completed the American Institute of Automotive Mechanical Technicians Advanced Course" (or something). Again, frames and certificates aren't free. Why display them so prominently if they're of no value? I think even my insurance agent had these on his wall, before I switched to an Internet company.

Lightfire's system hinges on testimonials. The problem is that bad testimonials are easier to create and distribute than good ones. Not only are bad testimonials not dependent on the existence of the good ones, but you tend to see a Gresham's law effect going on, where the sea of bad testimonials will "drive out" the good ones from circulation, simply because it's so easy to create another organization of quacks.....

You have a good point there, but not the whole story.
Instead of my current real "journeyman letter" I could have a suitcasefull of goldtrimmed certificates* from madeup trade schools.
Their value would still depend on the existence of real training centres/trade schools and people mistakenly believing they were from a real one.

DRKITTEN
... except that under his system everyone uses homemade credentials. So it would actually increase the weight of my IAI certificate because there's no validating agency to say that my IAI cert is worthless.

Correct, there would be no one to call you out, but there would not be anyone to leach credibility from either. And maybe more important, there would not be a culture of taking certificates seriusly.
Actually I am not sure what the total effect would be.
And I don't want to try it to find out.

*See india as example, I might have mentioned some indian repairmen before.

 

[drkitten]

You just shouldn't block them from competing.

Every time you write this statement, I point out that you've not shown a single instance of anyone being blocked from competing.

Every time you write this statement, it becomes more and more irrelevant.

Every time you write this statement, it becomes more and more evident that you have no actual reasons for your position.

Every time you write this statement, you look a little bit stupider and a little bit crazier.

 

[drkitten]

Their value would still depend on the existence of real training centres/trade schools and people mistakenly believing they were from a real one.

No, not really. Letters of recommendation have been around far longer than training schools or accreditation boards.

Their value would only depend on the existence of "people with opinions" -- something that seems pretty fundamental to society in general.

Correct, there would be no one to call you out, but there would not be anyone to leach credibility from either.

But it's not a question of "leaching" credibility. It's simply a question of claiming a testimonial where there is none.

Harvard's credibility doesn't really go down when someone else opens up South Hudson Institute of Technology. (Actually, it arguably goes up; every time someone prints a valueless credential, the credentials that are widely respected and recognized become that much more valuable.) My ability to sell fusion-powered cars door-to-door doesn't depend on the existence of real fusion-powered car salesmen. It simply hinges on people gullibility and my ability to con them.

 

[drkitten]

I certainly wouldn't bar Billy Bob from attempting the job ever

Then you're a fool. The equipment that Billy Bob ruined isn't free, you know.

I used to work as a cameraman for a TV studio. Do you have any idea how expensive those cameras are? (Answer -- several tens of thousands of dollars). Do you have any idea how easy they are to break? (Answer -- just point them at the studio lights and watch them burn out.) We're not talking about a job that requires lots of training, but don't let the camera tilt up was an important part of it.

Now, let's look at the physics equipment that Billy Bob is expected to handle. A JEOL JEM-2011 200 kV HRTEM electron microscope runs about $120,000 used.

 

[theprestige]

You can tell pretty quickly if someone knows what they're doing at least to an extent with test scores and prior experience.

So what are your test scores, lightfire22000? What's your prior experience?

 

[paximperium]

Now, let's look at the physics equipment that Billy Bob is expected to handle. A JEOL JEM-2011 200 kV HRTEM electron microscope runs about $120,000 used.

I think I saw one on eBay going for only $60000. Get it while you can.

 

[drkitten]

I think I saw one on eBay going for only $60000. Get it while you can.

Still a lot to risk to determine whether or not your self-taught electron microscopist really has the skills he claims to have.

 

[paximperium]

Still a lot to risk to determine whether or not your self-taught electron microscopist really has the skills he claims to have.

Maybe Autodidacts should be treated like freelancers. Come to a job, bring your own electron microscope.

 

[drkitten]

Maybe Autodidacts should be treated like freelancers. Come to a job, bring your own electron microscope.

Could make a postdoc stint at CERN very expensive, though. "Bring your own Large Hadron Collider."

 

[theprestige]

Could make a postdoc stint at CERN very expensive, though. "Bring your own Large Hadron Collider."

Yeah, but the autodidact will have earned that LHC, unlike the posers at CERN. They only got one because they faxed a copy of their diploma to the head of the lab. Who knows if they're really physicists!

 

[lightfire22000]

Maybe Autodidacts should be treated like freelancers. Come to a job, bring your own electron microscope.

Give me time I can do that. Mercer Med Center offered a free(excluding shipping) SEM a while back. I know for a fact that autodidacts that own SEMs.