Atheists, what is your attitude on suicide, murder?

Murder is wrong.
Why?
Because people do not generally want to be killed.
(barring exceptional and/or horrible circumstances)

Suicide is ... ?
Let's think:
If a person wants to get a tattoo, should stop them because I personally don't like needles?
If a person wants to get a piercing, should to stop them because I personally don't like needles?
If a person wants to smoke, should I stop them because I personally don't like cigarettes?
If a person wants to end their won life, should I stop them because I personally want to live?

So far as I am concerned, suicide is a personal choice.
It directly harms no one else (the grief of loved ones is indirect, and doesn't always occur) provided the suicide is carried out carefully (i.e. jumping from a building and lading on a small child = bad).

I may disagree with the reasons behind many suicides, and agree with the reasons behind others.
There is no broad-brush approach possible wit this subject.


If I may digress slightly:

On Saturday, I had to have one of our dogs put down. Her name was Jade. She was a Jack Russel Terrier cross.

She had a (very large) growth on he hindquarter, other smaller growths elsewhere, which were likely cancerous. The large growth was too large and in a bad place to be easily removed, and there were still the other growths. The large growth had just split and started bleeding everywhere, leaving her in pain (it hadn't bothered her until now).
She had trouble breathing. She was also quite old.

We (my sister and I) made the (difficult) decision that euthanasia was the best option.

My sister couldn't handle the thought of being there (this being her dog). So I took her to the vet. 20 minutes for the sedative to kick in, making her extremely drowsy. Not even 10 seconds from the injection of the blue stuff to when Jade was gone.

It was hard to watch. Hard to handle. It took me 5 minutes to control myself enough to pay the bill and walk out to my car. Another few minutes before i could make the drive home. my sister was texting me the whole time, and I was replying as best I could (I don't usually text message). She called me after, while I was paying. She was in worse shape than I was.

The thing is, I didn't even like that dog. It irritated me. But it was part of the family, and losing such a thing is hard to do.

But here's the question, yrreg:

Was I wrong?

Was I wrong to have Jade euthenized?
Bearing in mind that she was old, in poor health, and now plainly suffering.
Bearing in mind that surgery to alleviate the symptoms would be long, painful, risky, and not very effective in the long run.

Was I wrong?

And please justify your answer.
 
I live my life according to Bill and Ted: "Be excellent to each other."

Thus, murder is wrong, because it is not being excellent to the other person.

Suicide is similarly wrong, for the same reason. It may seem a little conceited, but my dying will affect others, and not in a good way. I'd like to believe my wife will be distraught, and we have a young son. My friends and family will similarly be saddened if I die (for whatever reason). Making my friends and family sad is not being excellent to them.

For the same reason I do not usually support suicide by others, either. Although there are exceptions, suicide does have a big effect on other people, and so I say to those who consider suicide to be a "personal decision that I don't get involved in," you are wrong. You only need to talk with friends and family of those who have committed suicide to realize that suicide affects far more than the person doing it.

I think the most important thing I've learned about life is that I'm not in this for me. Whether I am alive or not isn't really that big of a deal for me. However, my life is not just my own, and it matters to people all over. Therefore, I live for them, just as they live for me.
 
pgwenthold said:
I live my life according to Bill and Ted: "Be excellent to each other."

Thus, murder is wrong, because it is not being excellent to the other person.

Suicide is similarly wrong, for the same reason. It may seem a little conceited, but my dying will affect others, and not in a good way. I'd like to believe my wife will be distraught, and we have a young son. My friends and family will similarly be saddened if I die (for whatever reason). Making my friends and family sad is not being excellent to them.

For the same reason I do not usually support suicide by others, either. Although there are exceptions, suicide does have a big effect on other people, and so I say to those who consider suicide to be a "personal decision that I don't get involved in," you are wrong. You only need to talk with friends and family of those who have committed suicide to realize that suicide affects far more than the person doing it.

I think the most important thing I've learned about life is that I'm not in this for me. Whether I am alive or not isn't really that big of a deal for me. However, my life is not just my own, and it matters to people all over. Therefore, I live for them, just as they live for me.
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Well said. Now we just have to wait for Gerry to completely ignore it.
 
Do we have to? Can we not skip that part or take it as read or something?
 
Fiona said:
Do we have to? Can we not skip that part or take it as read or something?
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Certainly.

I have started the Church of Notyrreg. It's tenants are simple, do things contrary to yrreg.

This boils down to the following:
1.) writing short simple, coherent posts.
2.) Being humble and polite to people.
3.) Actually reading and directly responding to other people's posts.
4.) Making sure that your arguments can't be easily refuted by a 5th grader with the intelligence of a narwhal.
5.) Having a sense of humor.
 
Do I have to take the whole catechism or can I pick and choose?

I don't fancy 1) and I can't prove 5): I can be a zealot for the others to make up, if that helps
 
Fiona said:
Do I have to take the whole catechism or can I pick and choose?

I don't fancy 1) and I can't prove 5): I can be a zealot for the others to make up, if that helps
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All or nothing dichotomies are a feature of yrreg thinking and are therefore rejected in the Church of notyrreg. As such, you are free to do as you wish. :D
 
joobz said:
Certainly.

I have started the Church of Notyrreg. It's tenants are simple, do things contrary to yrreg.

This boils down to the following:
1.) writing short simple, coherent posts.
2.) Being humble and polite to people.
3.) Actually reading and directly responding to other people's posts.
4.) Making sure that your arguments can't be easily refuted by a 5th grader with the intelligence of a narwhal.
5.) Having a sense of humor.
Click to expand...

I'm in.
 
X said:
20 minutes for the sedative to kick in, making her extremely drowsy. Not even 10 seconds from the injection of the blue stuff to when Jade was gone.
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I don't want to seem frivolous (choosing to euthanase an animal is necessary, right and hard) but 20 minutes? Over the years I have had several dogs and cats euthanased (they all got pretty old at pretty much the same time) and my vet takes less than 5 minutes for the whole procedure, including monitoring the heart.


Sorry about the continued diversion, but at least it fills the time until Gerry replies...
 
Because I know where I come from in the ultimate terms, aside from my parents and...

Twiler said:
Yrreg, why do you keep insisting on limits to the replies sent to you?

Why do you dismiss any analogy as being 'frivolous' then make bizarre attempts at humour?

Why do you talk about yourself as someone who can see the greater picture of the universe?

Why do keep insisting that you alone of the people of this forum are important enough that you don't have to read all the posts?

Aren't these symptoms of considering yourself to be worth more than any other person?
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You ask:

Why do you talk about yourself as someone who can see the greater picture of the universe?
​


Because I know where I come from in the ultimate terms, aside from my parents and ancestors, and also everything that exists in any manner at any time even outside time and space, I know where they come from if they come from anything or any entity like in a way ourselves: conscious intelligent free agent.


You don't know and you profess to be in invincible ignorance, that is why you cannot be possessed of the capability itself of seeing the bigger and the biggest picture of humanity and everything in the universe of existence which includes anything at all which exists in any manner, in any dimensions of whatever time and space and whatever circumstance of existence which circumstance itself also is into existence, as also the laws of mathematics or the principles of mathematics by which math experts do their mathematics of however low and however high and abstract their mathematics.


That includes also science.


No need for me to read any further the posts here.

Unless you have written something about where you come from, it is useless for you to talk about what I care to read about, what is the most last ultimate ground why suicide is wrong or not wrong, and also murder.

I will give you a hint, the last ultimate ground of why suicide is wrong or not wrong as also murder transcends whatever consideration that in your thinking comes from you, your life and its essentials and incidentals and accidentals, or in one word or two words, your existence.




In case you have written something about where you come from as the ultimate ground for why suicide and murder is wrong or not wrong, please just pm me, and I will bring your pm to this public board and discuss it with you.






Yrreg
 
yrreg said:
You ask:

Why do you talk about yourself as someone who can see the greater picture of the universe?
​


Because I know where I come from in the ultimate terms, aside from my parents and ancestors, and also everything that exists in any manner at any time even outside time and space, I know where they come from if they come from anything or any entity like in a way ourselves: conscious intelligent free agent.

Yrreg
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"Know" is not the same word as "believe". They aren't interchangeable.
 
yrreg said:
You don't know and you profess to be in invincible ignorance, that is why you cannot be possessed of the capability itself of seeing the bigger and the biggest picture of humanity and everything in the universe of existence which includes anything at all which exists in any manner, in any dimensions of whatever time and space and whatever circumstance of existence which circumstance itself also is into existence, as also the laws of mathematics or the principles of mathematics by which math experts do their mathematics of however low and however high and abstract their mathematics.

Yrreg
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You were told to start using words that make sense. You have disobeyed..
 
yrreg said:
You ask:

Why do you talk about yourself as someone who can see the greater picture of the universe?
​


Because I know where I come from in the ultimate terms, aside from my parents and ancestors, and also everything that exists in any manner at any time even outside time and space, I know where they come from if they come from anything or any entity like in a way ourselves: conscious intelligent free agent.


You don't know and you profess to be in invincible ignorance, that is why you cannot be possessed of the capability itself of seeing the bigger and the biggest picture of humanity and everything in the universe of existence which includes anything at all which exists in any manner, in any dimensions of whatever time and space and whatever circumstance of existence which circumstance itself also is into existence, as also the laws of mathematics or the principles of mathematics by which math experts do their mathematics of however low and however high and abstract their mathematics.


That includes also science.


No need for me to read any further the posts here.

Unless you have written something about where you come from, it is useless for you to talk about what I care to read about, what is the most last ultimate ground why suicide is wrong or not wrong, and also murder.

I will give you a hint, the last ultimate ground of why suicide is wrong or not wrong as also murder transcends whatever consideration that in your thinking comes from you, your life and its essentials and incidentals and accidentals, or in one word or two words, your existence.




In case you have written something about where you come from as the ultimate ground for why suicide and murder is wrong or not wrong, please just pm me, and I will bring your pm to this public board and discuss it with you.






Yrreg
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Yrreg, what is your attitude on suicide, murder?

Is there any obligation binding you not to commit suicide, murder?

What about the fact the Abrahamic God ordered murder and even genocide? Would you obey such an order without qualm or question?

Please answer in ten words or less.
 
yrreg said:
Because I know where I come from in the ultimate terms, aside from my parents and ancestors, and also everything that exists in any manner at any time even outside time and space, I know where they come from if they come from anything or any entity like in a way ourselves: conscious intelligent free agent.
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No. No you don't know the answer at all.

You don't know and you profess to be in invincible ignorance, that is why you cannot be possessed of the capability itself of seeing the bigger and the biggest picture of humanity and everything in the universe of existence which includes anything at all which exists in any manner, in any dimensions of whatever time and space and whatever circumstance of existence which circumstance itself also is into existence, as also the laws of mathematics or the principles of mathematics by which math experts do their mathematics of however low and however high and abstract their mathematics.
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Oh Yrreg, your entire rant here speaks for exactly what everyone has concluded about you a long time ago.
I will give you a hint, the last ultimate ground of why suicide is wrong or not wrong as also murder transcends whatever consideration that in your thinking comes from you, your life and its essentials and incidentals and accidentals, or in one word or two words, your existence.
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No.
 
kerikiwi said:
I still want to know who taught Gerry English because whoever it was did an absolutely appalling job.
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I know many Filipinos and their English is not bad. Most people who don't use English as their primary language usually keep to basic and simple English.

Gerry seems too arrogant to do so and seems to enjoy showboating. So instead, he uses big words he does not understand, random technical jargon, random latin phrases and just poorly constructed large, never ending sentences to hide his ignorance.

There is one word for that: Poseur
 
yrreg said:
You ask:

Why do you talk about yourself as someone who can see the greater picture of the universe?
​


Because I know where I come from in the ultimate terms, aside from my parents and ancestors, and also everything that exists in any manner at any time even outside time and space, I know where they come from if they come from anything or any entity like in a way ourselves: conscious intelligent free agent.
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Gerry, you're starting to sound like Kathy. Ah, who am I kidding, you continue to sound like Kathy.

Hint: just because you want real hard to believe something, it doesn't make it "knowing". It might make it a particularly bad case of cognitive dissonance, or if you're unlucky even paranoid schizophrenia, but not "knowing."

Briefly: ask your doctor if neuroleptics are right for you.

yrreg said:
You don't know and you profess to be in invincible ignorance, that is why you cannot be possessed of the capability itself of seeing the bigger and the biggest picture of humanity and everything in the universe of existence which includes anything at all which exists in any manner, in any dimensions of whatever time and space and whatever circumstance of existence which circumstance itself also is into existence, as also the laws of mathematics or the principles of mathematics by which math experts do their mathematics of however low and however high and abstract their mathematics.
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Not subscribing to your particular kind of delusions, doesn't make one ignorant. Just because you hallucinated some bigger picture, it doesn't make it The Truth.

Sad to break that to you. Sorry.

yrreg said:
That includes also science.
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I'm not sure what you mean by that one. That science is wrong? Or that science somehow supports your delusions? Because, sad to break it to you, buddy, but it doesn't.

Science is about making testable hypotheses and actually testing them. If you'll ever come up with a testable theory about your "big picture" and the data to suport it, that will be science.

But in the meantime... these childish butthurt-Jesus-fanboy-whargl acts? Please.

yrreg said:
Unless you have written something about where you come from, it is useless for you to talk about what I care to read about, what is the most last ultimate ground why suicide is wrong or not wrong, and also murder.
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So, basically, if it's not what you wanted to hear it's automatically wrong? Sad to break it to you, buddy, but what you do here -- and generally again and again -- is just a conceited version of an argument from personal (dis)belief, i.e., a case of argument from ignorance. It's a fallacy for a good reason.

Just stating your personal beliefs in angry fanboy tones doesn't make that truth, and refusing to believe in actual psychology and sociology doesn't automatically make it false. Sorry.

yrreg said:
I will give you a hint, the last ultimate ground of why suicide is wrong or not wrong as also murder transcends whatever consideration that in your thinking comes from you, your life and its essentials and incidentals and accidentals, or in one word or two words, your existence.
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So, you still think that bare assertions of your favourite woowoo makes it truth? :p

yrreg said:
In case you have written something about where you come from as the ultimate ground for why suicide and murder is wrong or not wrong, please just pm me, and I will bring your pm to this public board and discuss it with you.
Click to expand...

So, you'll only discuss it if it's what you want to hear? Intellectual dishonesty at its finest, eh? :p
 
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