Rabbi says "Jewish Holocaust victims were reincarnation of past sinners"

[a_unique_person]

"There is no calamity that the people of Israel suffer that isn't part of [the punishment for] the sin of the golden calf. The tragedies we've endured throughout generations - the Inquisition, the Holocaust - they are all part of the sin of the golden calf," Rabbi Yosef explained.

I don't see anything in there about Nazism being to blame.

 

[marksman]

He wasn't asked why the Holocaust happened from an historical perspective but from a philosophical perspective. I.e., why do bad things happen to good Jews. He was giving the standard Orthodox answer: bad things happen to Jews because of the bad karma created from the Golden Calf incident.

He's not a historian and thus shouldn't be expected to give a discussion of the historical causes of the Holocaust. He is a theologian and thus is giving a theological answer.

I don't agree with him on a theological or philosophical basis, by the way. But his answer wasn't offensive. It doesn't blame the Jews for the Holocaust. It doesn't exonerate the Nazis.

 

[Jontg]

You know, I once had a similar theory in my teens--only instead of lapsed Jews, I figured they must be the dead of World War One. It was the only logical way I could reconcile my idea of how karma worked with the existence of the Shoah. I outgrew that theory before my voice changed.

 

[marksman]

Yeah. I don't like the idea of karma. I think it's a horrible philosophy. But it's a prevalent philosophy. There are 900 million Hindus in the world who ascribe to it (at least nominally).

Still, ascribing to the notion of karma doesn't mean people aren't responsible for the evils they do in this lifetime. The Rabbi in question was not exonerating Nazis or blaming Jews for the Holocaust.

 

[ponderingturtle]

So...why isn't "Nazis are crazy and evil." a good enough answer?

Because you have to explain how god allowed it to happen. From a frame work of a believer it is always an easy thing to do to say that when something bad happens to someone they must have deserved it.

It gives an easy out to a difficult philosophical problem.

 

[marksman]

He didn't say they "deserved" it. He is describing it as karmic causation not divine retribution.

 

[marksman]

By the way, this controversy isn't new. He said a similar thing eight years ago, and he actually explained his remarks:

In remarks broadcast on Israeli television on Monday, the 79-year-old Iraqi-born rabbi said: "Who doesn't bemoan the Holocaust?... Six million Jews, among them one million children...were killed by the wicked Nazis. All were holy and pure and complete saints."​

Edited to add: I assume the saints he refers to are the victims of the Holocaust, not the Nazis.


Now, if you want to criticize Rabbi Yosef for something offensive and crazy he actually said and meant, try how he blamed Hurricane Katrina on President Bush's support for the withdrawal from Gaza and the insufficient amount of Torah study performed by New Orleans residents. He's also said some pretty nasty things about Arabs -- though each time he gets called on it, he says he was only referring to the terrorists.

 

[Cainkane1]

This is one of the reasons I can't understand religion and its another reason for my disbelief. To say those jewish people were being punished for sins during a previous life is to say the nazi butchers were the good guys doing Gods will. Nope I'm not into reigion.

 

[xXMoshtradamusXx]

By the way, this controversy isn't new. He said a similar thing eight years ago, and he actually explained his remarks:

In remarks broadcast on Israeli television on Monday, the 79-year-old Iraqi-born rabbi said: "Who doesn't bemoan the Holocaust?... Six million Jews, among them one million children...were killed by the wicked Nazis. All were holy and pure and complete saints."​

Edited to add: I assume the saints he refers to are the victims of the Holocaust, not the Nazis.


Now, if you want to criticize Rabbi Yosef for something offensive and crazy he actually said and meant, try how he blamed Hurricane Katrina on President Bush's support for the withdrawal from Gaza and the insufficient amount of Torah study performed by New Orleans residents. He's also said some pretty nasty things about Arabs -- though each time he gets called on it, he says he was only referring to the terrorists.

Another religious bi-polar nutjob. Gotcha...
Lol, we might as well argue on what a schizo really means.

 

[marksman]

It's easy to dismiss people whose beliefs you disagree as a "schizo", but that's really not embodying the "critical thinking" this site is supposed to represent.

 

[FireGarden]

It's easy to dismiss people whose beliefs you disagree as a "schizo", but that's really not embodying the "critical thinking" this site is supposed to represent.

"Schizo" is a daft word, but I'm at a loss as to how to judge this man to be rational.

On the one hand, regarding Katrina,

In his weekly sermon, the rabbi said: “There was a tsunami and there are terrible natural disasters, because there isn’t enough Torah study… black people reside there (in New Orleans). Blacks will study the Torah? (God said) let’s bring a tsunami and drown them.”

But on the other hand,

Rabbi Yosef, the spiritual leader of the ultra-Orthodox Shas party, said he was only trying to provide a theological explanation for the Holocaust - adding that he believed all six million Jewish victims were pure and complete saints.

So even if there HAD been Torah reading in New Orleans, that wouldn't have been sufficient. Because maybe they didn't do enough reading in a previous life. Or because Bush needed to be punished for supporting the dismantling of settlements. (And God needs to visit an ophthalmologist).

 

[a_unique_person]

I wonder how MEMRI missed all this?

 

[FireGarden]

He didn't say they "deserved" it. He is describing it as karmic causation not divine retribution.

In what way is this karmic causation not part of the divinely ordained way of things? Surely what god has ordained is deemed by the religious to be good and just. Or is karma a bug that god hasn't fixed yet?

(I know it's not your position your defending, but you're trying to explain the Rabbi's. That's the spirit in which I ask the above questions.)

 

[Soapy Sam]

I think he's just spewing silly nonsense like most religious people.

I think we have a winner.

 

[Skeptic]

(Sigh)

Can't say I'm surprised parky noticed this statement -- or that he misinterpreted it and tried to put the worst possible interpretation on it.

 

[ponderingturtle]

He didn't say they "deserved" it. He is describing it as karmic causation not divine retribution.

So it is the belief that god is powerless to stop the supernatual effects of worshiping something other than him?

"You didn't pay me enough respect, I am not responcible for what happens to you" Does anyone really buy this line of crap?

 

[a_unique_person]

Because you have to explain how god allowed it to happen. From a frame work of a believer it is always an easy thing to do to say that when something bad happens to someone they must have deserved it.

It gives an easy out to a difficult philosophical problem.

Nailed it.

 

[Skeptic]

A totally manufactured "controversy". Sure, he is not fringe figure -- but his views are not fringe views, either, even if they were expressed somewhat indelicately. He is NOT blaming the holocaust victims of anything. On the contrary: he is trying to explain why obviously innocent people, children and babies and devout religious folks included, suffered this way.

Ever since the holocaust many Jewish believers asked themselves how such a thing can happen if there is a God. To those who did not become atheist, some solution must be found. Traditionally, suffering in Judaism is seen as punishment for the sins of the sufferer. But since it is obvious that the sins of the victims, whatever those sins were, couldn't possibly SUCH a punishment, other excuses need to be found. One of those solutions is the belief of sins in a past life are repaid in this.

It is the solution to the "why bad things happen to good people" riddle of many religions, and many religious people. There is nothing theologically extreme here at all, except perhaps, to some, the realization that some Jews accept reincarnation. Well, welcome to the club -- this belief is at least 1500 or so years old in Judaism.

Yes, Judaism is very unclear and contraditory about what next life, if any, there is. During the biblical times there was no heaven or hell, only a vaguely-defined sheol -- roughly, the world of the dead. The belief in heaven and hell came later, during the Babylonian exile. It now exists simultaneously in Judaism with the belief in reincarnation, and with the belief in the eventualy ressurection of the dead -- all three obviously contradictory with the other two (and all three contradictory with the original biblical view).

But I repeat: while this might surprise some readers, given this common belief in reincarnation (at least for some people), what the Rabbi said is theologically orthodox and not at all surprising.

 

[Oliver]

Ever since the holocaust many Jewish believers asked themselves how such a thing can happen if there is a God.

And the answer is: Because they think there is a God.
Without "God", there would be no such things as "Jews", "Christians", "Scientologists" - thus, no persecution of the religious minority.

Of course, you don't like that fact, so go ahead and flame me.

 

[Pardalis]

As we said many times in the antisemitic thread you've abandoned, religion isn't the only reason why the Holocaust happened.