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Give autodidacts and independent learners a chance

If you are going to implement a qualification by exam process, then one possible incremental path is a standardization of existing programs. I don't mean to recommend the Bologna Process (though I do sort of like what the Finns are doing with it - particularly the part in the final exams where you get to whip naked people with birch branches :D), but it's a path one could use. We are never going to just suddenly overturn centuries of practice, so there must be some gradual process, or perhaps a demo project.

Is it the PE Lightfire22000 wants? I thought it might be something in Medicine.

What I garnered from the whole of what Lighty wants is that there should no be a central overseeing part. That the companies will kick out the incompetent and that in that way we will have the cream of the crop doing the work.

Am I right Lighty?
 
If you are going to implement a qualification by exam process, then one possible incremental path is a standardization of existing programs.

As far as I can tell, the Bologna process will end up doing exactly the opposite.

Most US universities have an official or unofficial office that does credential examination for faculty candidates and for applicants for advanced degrees. There's a phone number I can call, for example, if I want to know exactly what a "technical certificate" from Karachi Technical Academy or a "habilitation" from Leipzig means. These people are responsible for digging through the patchwork quilt of worldwide standards. And, in general, they do a pretty bad job of it, because it's an extremely difficult job.

The Bologna process is supposed to make the qualifications more standard by making the process itself more standard. For example, it's possible in some systems for your first degree to be a doctoral degree -- this would no longer be possible under Bologna. It's possible to get degrees with no formal coursework; this again would no longer be possible under Bologna. Is a law degree a first or a post-graduate degree? This would be standardized under Bologna (ditto medicine).

So I think it would make it even more difficult to self-educate, because if your self-education didn't fit the Bologna matrix, it would be harder, not easier, to get your credentials approved.
 
So I think it would make it even more difficult to self-educate, because if your self-education didn't fit the Bologna matrix, it would be harder, not easier, to get your credentials approved.

Perhaps the fault is mine for thinking that there is a sharp difference between education and the recognition thereof, but I stand by my previous point that educating one's self is surprisingly easy - textbooks are comparatively cheap when acquired off of Amazon, and the difference between editions is (normally) going to be minimal. Getting academic credit for that knowledge, on the other hand, is a separate matter.

However, it is still possible and arguably practical. My university enjoys a program called CLEP (http://www.ugs.usf.edu/catalogs/9798/clep.htm), where a student claiming sufficient knowledge of the subject matter normally taught within a class may take an exam to prove it. If they do, in fact, know the material and demonstrate this knowledge by passing the exam, then they will receive credit for the class. A small fee is required for this service, but it is significantly less than the tuition for the same class. If you desire autodidactism within a university environment, this is perhaps as good as you will get.

~ Matt
 
Perhaps the fault is mine for thinking that there is a sharp difference between education and the recognition thereof, but I stand by my previous point that educating one's self is surprisingly easy - textbooks are comparatively cheap when acquired off of Amazon, and the difference between editions is (normally) going to be minimal. Getting academic credit for that knowledge, on the other hand, is a separate matter.

Right. I simply fail to see how the Bologna process makes getting academic credit for the knowledge easier. The Bologna process is specifically an initiative to make academic credits more standardized, not less.

I think you're also underestimating how easy it is to educate yourself; buying and reading textbooks is a tiny fraction of the education process (which is why, for example, ABET requires a certain number of "lab" credits as part of any approved engineering curriculum and why medical students look at real cadavers instead of just reading anatomy textbooks.) That's also why tutoring services, including on-line tutoring services, are so popular; for any individual, there are some things that just can't be learned out of a book and they need to work one on one with someone and receive tailored explanations and feedback.

Universities offer chances to work with equipment that's beyond the budget of a typical autodidact and a chance to work with domain experts who can provide feedback.


My university enjoys a program called CLEP (http://www.ugs.usf.edu/catalogs/9798/clep.htm), where a student claiming sufficient knowledge of the subject matter normally taught within a class may take an exam to prove it. If they do, in fact, know the material and demonstrate this knowledge by passing the exam, then they will receive credit for the class. A small fee is required for this service, but it is significantly less than the tuition for the same class.

I can't think of a university that doesn't offer a CLEP program or the equivalent. I suggested as much in post 14.

The problem is that autodidacticism isn't a good way to learn, and the CLEP pass rates at most universities demonstrate that. Most students vastly overestimate what "experience" has taught them.
 
I think you're also underestimating how easy it is to educate yourself; buying and reading textbooks is a tiny fraction of the education process (which is why, for example, ABET requires a certain number of "lab" credits as part of any approved engineering curriculum and why medical students look at real cadavers instead of just reading anatomy textbooks.) That's also why tutoring services, including on-line tutoring services, are so popular; for any individual, there are some things that just can't be learned out of a book and they need to work one on one with someone and receive tailored explanations and feedback.

I already mentioned that way back. I have no problem in hiring 'self-educated' programmers for 'website work', but before anyone gets to play on the super-computers or the Junipers I really want to see that they have some experience.
 
I think you're also underestimating how easy it is to educate yourself; buying and reading textbooks is a tiny fraction of the education process (which is why, for example, ABET requires a certain number of "lab" credits as part of any approved engineering curriculum and why medical students look at real cadavers instead of just reading anatomy textbooks.) That's also why tutoring services, including on-line tutoring services, are so popular; for any individual, there are some things that just can't be learned out of a book and they need to work one on one with someone and receive tailored explanations and feedback.

Universities offer chances to work with equipment that's beyond the budget of a typical autodidact and a chance to work with domain experts who can provide feedback.

Granted, I probably was.

I can't think of a university that doesn't offer a CLEP program or the equivalent. I suggested as much in post 14.

The problem is that autodidacticism isn't a good way to learn, and the CLEP pass rates at most universities demonstrate that. Most students vastly overestimate what "experience" has taught them.

CLEP pass rates? That does sound like something worth looking into, I can't imagine they'd be very high (at least on the first attempt).

~ Matt
 
As far as I can tell, the Bologna process will end up doing exactly the opposite.

Most US universities have an official or unofficial office that does credential examination for faculty candidates and for applicants for advanced degrees. There's a phone number I can call, for example, if I want to know exactly what a "technical certificate" from Karachi Technical Academy or a "habilitation" from Leipzig means. These people are responsible for digging through the patchwork quilt of worldwide standards. And, in general, they do a pretty bad job of it, because it's an extremely difficult job.

The Bologna process is supposed to make the qualifications more standard by making the process itself more standard. For example, it's possible in some systems for your first degree to be a doctoral degree -- this would no longer be possible under Bologna. It's possible to get degrees with no formal coursework; this again would no longer be possible under Bologna. Is a law degree a first or a post-graduate degree? This would be standardized under Bologna (ditto medicine).

So I think it would make it even more difficult to self-educate, because if your self-education didn't fit the Bologna matrix, it would be harder, not easier, to get your credentials approved.

You may be right. I have no direct experience with it. I thought it was an effort to harmonize standards in the same sort of way we did with emi/emc some years back. Harmonization does indeed penalize outliers, but I believe programs like TESC would have an easier time being accepted. Certainly the Danes seem to think Bologna will lead to enhanced self-directed learning in medicine, albeit only after the qualifying degree.
 
As far as I can tell, the Bologna process will end up doing exactly the opposite.

Most US universities have an official or unofficial office that does credential examination for faculty candidates and for applicants for advanced degrees. There's a phone number I can call, for example, if I want to know exactly what a "technical certificate" from Karachi Technical Academy or a "habilitation" from Leipzig means. These people are responsible for digging through the patchwork quilt of worldwide standards. And, in general, they do a pretty bad job of it, because it's an extremely difficult job.

The Bologna process is supposed to make the qualifications more standard by making the process itself more standard. For example, it's possible in some systems for your first degree to be a doctoral degree -- this would no longer be possible under Bologna. It's possible to get degrees with no formal coursework; this again would no longer be possible under Bologna. Is a law degree a first or a post-graduate degree? This would be standardized under Bologna (ditto medicine).

So I think it would make it even more difficult to self-educate, because if your self-education didn't fit the Bologna matrix, it would be harder, not easier, to get your credentials approved.

This is a bit of a derail, but what brings you to the last conclusion? It seems to me that the Bologna process is primarily aimed at making it easier to internationally transfer study credits. Say, a Dutch student wants to study half a year in the UK, and another half year in Austria, and use the credits of the courses he studied there at his Dutch university. That's also what students are encouraged to do. It's only logical then to establish a framework for mutual recognition of coursework.

And why wouldn't a professor in the Bologna system be allowed to sign off on a course if by, e.g., only a test he's convinced that the student has mastered the coursework without actually following the course?

BTW, mutual recognition of university degrees within the EU is at least 20 years old. I happen to have a copy of a 1992 German law, implementing a 1988 EC guideline, listing the universities and the degrees they recognize.
 
What I garnered from the whole of what Lighty wants is that there should no be a central overseeing part. That the companies will kick out the incompetent and that in that way we will have the cream of the crop doing the work.

Am I right Lighty?

Yep. We'd also have a simpler time improving ourselves and others.
 
This is a bit of a derail, but what brings you to the last conclusion? It seems to me that the Bologna process is primarily aimed at making it easier to internationally transfer study credits. Say, a Dutch student wants to study half a year in the UK, and another half year in Austria, and use the credits of the courses he studied there at his Dutch university. That's also what students are encouraged to do. It's only logical then to establish a framework for mutual recognition of coursework.

And why wouldn't a professor in the Bologna system be allowed to sign off on a course if by, e.g., only a test he's convinced that the student has mastered the coursework without actually following the course?

BTW, mutual recognition of university degrees within the EU is at least 20 years old. I happen to have a copy of a 1992 German law, implementing a 1988 EC guideline, listing the universities and the degrees they recognize.

Could you cite that law, please? I am never ceretain if my degree is even recognized here ...
 
Could you cite that law, please? I am never ceretain if my degree is even recognized here ...

Where did you obtain your degree, then?

To be exact, it's a state law (Baden-Württemberg), as education is a state affair in Germany (as I suppose, you very well know).

Its publication is in "Amtsblatt Wissenschaft und Kunst", 11. Jahrgang, Nr. 6, 19. Juni 1992. It's called:
Allgemeine Gehnehmigung zur Führung von Hochschulgraden aus Mitgliedstaaten der Europäischen Gemeinschaft, Österreich und der Schweiz, der Päpstlichen Hochschulen in Rom sowie der Europäischen Hochschulen in Florenz und Brügge​

It refers to EC guideline 89/48/EWG from 21 Dec. 1988, art. 7 par. 2 which deals with establishing rules for recognition of academic grades within the EC for 3+ year studies. It replaces likewise regulations for recognition of French, Dutch, Austrian and Swiss academic grades from 1984/1985. Then it goes on for 20 pages to list per country the grades that are recognized and from which institutions they are recognized. Seems like an exhaustive list of bona-fide universities from each country. Each German state should have such a regulation, and I guess they won't be different from each other. But feel free to send me a PM :).

The EC has a general page about recognition of diplomas. From there, you can find the above guideline - it's the first one mentioned.
 
This is a bit of a derail, but what brings you to the last conclusion? It seems to me that the Bologna process is primarily aimed at making it easier to internationally transfer study credits. Say, a Dutch student wants to study half a year in the UK, and another half year in Austria, and use the credits of the courses he studied there at his Dutch university. That's also what students are encouraged to do. It's only logical then to establish a framework for mutual recognition of coursework.

Because the way that it works is by making the process in Holland more similar to the UK and to Austria, so that the credits transfer more easily. In other words, the transfer goes more smoothly because the system as a whole is more uniform, which means that the processes in place to deal with differences can be stripped down and/or abandoned.

For example, part of Bologna requires that all courses be denominated in "credits" toward partial graduation. This makes sense,.... until you realize that the reason that that requirement is there is because some universities don't use a credit/course based system, and so have no way of measuring partial progress towards a degree. Of course, course-based systems have the same problem -- what good are six weeks of a fifteen-week course?

And why wouldn't a professor in the Bologna system be allowed to sign off on a course if by, e.g., only a test he's convinced that the student has mastered the coursework without actually following the course?

Because the student may not have mastered the coursework of that class. At my university, for example, we taught Differential Equations and Linear Algebra together as one class. If you mastered Diff Eq on your own, you couldn't get credit for half a class. If you took our class, you probably wouldn't get credit for Diff Eq at your home institution.

Multiply this problem by a zillion and you get the current EU situation, which Bologna is addressing. But part of addressing it is by making sure stupid classes like DiffEq/LinAlg are less common, which means that autodidacts who don't follow conventional course progressions will be even more screwed than they already are.
 
Because the way that it works is by making the process in Holland more similar to the UK and to Austria, so that the credits transfer more easily. In other words, the transfer goes more smoothly because the system as a whole is more uniform, which means that the processes in place to deal with differences can be stripped down and/or abandoned.

For example, part of Bologna requires that all courses be denominated in "credits" toward partial graduation. This makes sense,.... until you realize that the reason that that requirement is there is because some universities don't use a credit/course based system, and so have no way of measuring partial progress towards a degree.
I'd say, the reason for that requirement is to be able to have courses you followed at another university count for your graduation at your "own" university. As I said, students are encouraged to do some courses abroad. So they should know for how much their courses from abroad will count. But as I was raised in a credits/course based system, help me think outside the box: what's the alternative? Let a student follow courses whatever he fancies, and after four years, he's up to one big, final examination?

Small nitpick: it's Netherlands not Holland :)

Of course, course-based systems have the same problem -- what good are six weeks of a fifteen-week course?
Not much - but you know that before you start the course, don't you?

Because the student may not have mastered the coursework of that class. At my university, for example, we taught Differential Equations and Linear Algebra together as one class. If you mastered Diff Eq on your own, you couldn't get credit for half a class.
No, but now you're introducing an additional variable, viz. that the coursework is different than what the student knows/thinks he knows. Let's put the situation more direct: student/autodidact reads the description of the course on the web, thinks "I know that stuff", and goes to the professor and asks him if he can do the test directly. What's against that - according to Bologna?

Or another situation. As a 3/4th year undergrad, I wanted to follow some more analysis courses. So I went to the professor. He gave me a couple of readers for the courses - which he didn't teach at that time because there were too few interested students - and told me to hand in the exercises in the readers by way of examination. (this was before the advent of the WWW). Does Bologna prohibit that?

If you took our class, you probably wouldn't get credit for Diff Eq at your home institution.
Why? Because the course doesn't go into the same depth?

Multiply this problem by a zillion and you get the current EU situation, which Bologna is addressing. But part of addressing it is by making sure stupid classes like DiffEq/LinAlg are less common, which means that autodidacts who don't follow conventional course progressions will be even more screwed than they already are.
I don't follow your last conclusion. You argued above, in fact, that a stupid combination like DiffEq/LinAlg (and I concur with that qualification) is bad for the autodidact. An autodidact is much more likely to have mastered on his own the coursework for a DiffEq class or for a LinAlg class than for a combined class. So abolishment of such a combined class is actually good for him.

The credit system makes it easier for him to pick a "base" university where the obligatory coursework matches as much as possible what he already (thinks he) knows, and then pick and choose from other universities the eligible courses to make up his degree. Or am I overlooking something?
 
I'd say, the reason for that requirement is to be able to have courses you followed at another university count for your graduation at your "own" university. As I said, students are encouraged to do some courses abroad. So they should know for how much their courses from abroad will count. But as I was raised in a credits/course based system, help me think outside the box: what's the alternative? Let a student follow courses whatever he fancies, and after four years, he's up to one big, final examination?

That's a widely-followed approach, yes. I believe that's how things worked at Oxbridge when I taught there, for instance. There wasn't even any guarantee that two tutors would cover the same material.


Not much - but you know that before you start the course, don't you?

But that doesn't help if/when one university slices the coursework differently than another -- differently enough that the material isn't comparable across universities.

No, but now you're introducing an additional variable, viz. that the coursework is different than what the student knows/thinks he knows. Let's put the situation more direct: student/autodidact reads the description of the course on the web, thinks "I know that stuff", and goes to the professor and asks him if he can do the test directly. What's against that - according to Bologna?

Absolutely nothing.

But there's nothing against that not according to Bologna, either. In that regard, Bologna changes nothing. All universities with which I'm familiar have a process in place for challenging requirements.

The difference is that the Bologna process is supposed to homogenize what the courses and procedures are, so that whatever requirement is fulfilled at U. van Amsterdam will also be fulfilled at Cambridge or the Sorbonne. Which means, in turn, that there will be fewer different offerings, because whatever UvA offers must fit the Bologna framework.

I don't follow your last conclusion. You argued above, in fact, that a stupid combination like DiffEq/LinAlg (and I concur with that qualification) is bad for the autodidact. An autodidact is much more likely to have mastered on his own the coursework for a DiffEq class or for a LinAlg class than for a combined class.

This is simply wrong. An autodidact is much more likely to have mastered on his own whatever material he had in front of him, which may or may not correspond to any standardized course material. He'll read DiffEq until it gets too dull, too difficult, or too time-consuming, and then abandon it.

The effect is that he ends up with 1/2 of a Diff Eq class. By definition, an autodidact doesn't have a fanged instructor breathing down his neck telling him to master chapter 4 or else, so he's much more likely to ignore chapter 4 than a student who has to master it for a grade or credit.

The credit system makes it easier for him to pick a "base" university where the obligatory coursework matches as much as possible what he already (thinks he) knows, and then pick and choose from other universities the eligible courses to make up his degree. Or am I overlooking something?

Yes. You're overlooking the fact hat the whole point of Bologna is to homogenize the offerings across university to minimize the variance. It will be "easier to pick a 'base' university" only in the sense that there is much less real choice --rather like Ford's famous "any color as long as it's black" pronouncement.

Oxbridge, again, provides a good example. You can literally study anything within the confines of the system as long as you can sit the finals at the end of three years. If you want to spend the entire second year of your math course studying cryptography and never touch calculus -- or for that matter, spend your entire second year studying calculus-free plant growth mechanics -- you're fine as long as your tutor doesn't object. (And if there's a question on the exams about plant growth, you're golden.)

And if you came in already knowing all about cryptography and plant growth, you needn't waste your tutor's time with that stuff (and would probably spend your year doing post-graduate level material if you were interested).

_BUT_ you can't transfer any of that study to another, course-based, university. So the Bologna protocols insist that Oxbridge must provide course-based teaching, including a list of what's covered and what's not, and cryptography-based plant growth mechanics is probably not on that list.

So the Bologna protocols limit the flexibility of the _university_ offererings, which in turn limits the flexibility of what they can accept from autodidacts, which in turn limits the autodidact's choices. You can get credit for any first-year math course you like as long as it's differential and integral calculus.
 
drkitten,

Yes, I see your point about Oxbridge (I hadn't known about this term until your post; I'm hopelessly out of date.) and I sympathize (empathize) with you about the DiffEq course. But, the other part of my post was that we ought to somehow differentiate between career training and personal education. When I was at University (I went there for a ten day course in soil testing;)), they had a scholar's program in which one student at a time could design his/her own program of study and follow that to any end. The fellow who graduated with me did a degree in something like 14th century French abstract architecture. When he received his diploma, he mentioned that he had been working part-time at the Post Office and that he would now do that full-time as a living; the degree had been only for his personal value. I always admired him as someone who knew what he was about.
 
Yes, I see your point about Oxbridge (I hadn't known about this term until your post; I'm hopelessly out of date.) and I sympathize (empathize) with you about the DiffEq course. But, the other part of my post was that we ought to somehow differentiate between career training and personal education.

I'm not sure that's relevant to Bologna, though -- and where it is, it's to the detriment of "personal education."

When I was at University (I went there for a ten day course in soil testing;)), they had a scholar's program in which one student at a time could design his/her own program of study and follow that to any end.

That would be more difficult, if not impossible, under Bologna precisely because such a program would not transfer well to other schools. The best you could reasonably hope for is that some portions of what one has studied will fit in to a different curricular structure, but this (in turn) hinges on the availablility of "portions" that are both measurable and interchangeable. (Oxbridge provides its usual appalling counterexample.)

The fellow who graduated with me did a degree in something like 14th century French abstract architecture. When he received his diploma, he mentioned that he had been working part-time at the Post Office and that he would now do that full-time as a living; the degree had been only for his personal value. I always admired him as someone who knew what he was about.

No problem with that. However, that's explicitly not what lightfire is interested in. Indeed, it's almost the reverse. This person followed an explicitly laid-out course of study under the oversight of a formal educational institution that led to a recognized and accredited degree, even if it wasn't in a formally recognized major. Once he got the degree, he didn't do anything with it.

Lightfire wants the opposite. He doesn't want a formal degree that he has no intention of using. He wants to be able to act as though he has a formal degree despite not having one.
 
Lightfire wants the opposite. He doesn't want a formal degree that he has no intention of using. He wants to be able to act as though he has a formal degree despite not having one.

What's wrong with that? If someone can do a job without a piece of paper, why should someone stop him/her? Who's to say whether a degree is "formal".

This is simply wrong. An autodidact is much more likely to have mastered on his own whatever material he had in front of him, which may or may not correspond to any standardized course material. He'll read DiffEq until it gets too dull, too difficult, or too time-consuming, and then abandon it.

The effect is that he ends up with 1/2 of a Diff Eq class. By definition, an autodidact doesn't have a fanged instructor breathing down his neck telling him to master chapter 4 or else, so he's much more likely to ignore chapter 4 than a student who has to master it for a grade or credit.

You're wrong, very wrong. First off, note the "independent learner" part of the thread. One wouldn't necessarily learn all by themselves if their education weren't declared traditional. Secondly, I don't think you can stereotype autodidacts. I would learn a subject for practical purposes however. DiffEq would be no different. I would learn DiffEq as well as I could to get the results that I wanted. This would entail a thorough examination of topics and an examination of all the book chapters. Standardized course material is only relevant regarding the purpose of which it's standardized. Only the applications of the material are relevant.


But there's nothing against that not according to Bologna, either. In that regard, Bologna changes nothing. All universities with which I'm familiar have a process in place for challenging requirements.

Do you know how insanely bureaucratic those processes can be? It's hard enough to change your major. It can take weeks of phone calls and forms just to prepare to challenge a class. Plus, you don't receive a grade for the class that is successfully challenged.
 
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What's wrong with that? If someone can do a job without a piece of paper, why should someone stop him/her? Who's to say whether a degree is "formal".
There's nothing wrong with being able to do a job without a peice of paper. The problem is that its difficult to tell the people who can do the job well from those who will do it poorly.
That paper is one standard upon which to make that judgement.
And I should point out, it's not just the people hiring for the job that face this challenge, its also those who want to do it as well. How do you measure yourself? How do you know how deep your understanding of a particular subject is?
Completing that course is one way to do so. Of course its not perfect, but its useful.

That doesn't mean there aren't any other ways, but this is probably the best standardized method.
 

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