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Optics: Light and it's interaction with matter

CaveDave

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In the thread about the Chinese building collapse, GreyICE posted this which linked to a "HowStuffWorks" article. That article mentioned a putative reason for glass' transparency having to do with atomic/molecular "looseness" and further linked to another HSW article.

The article spoke of the light getting through without being absorbed in transparent materials:
This progression from ordered to random organization is the primary reason that light can pass through liquids and gases
as the substance changes to liquid or gas and the molecules are not stacked neatly anymore, gaps and holes occur that allow portions of the light waves to pass through. The greater the randomness of the molecular organization of the substance, the easier it is for the light to pass through.
The atoms that bind together to make the molecules of any particular substance have electrons, usually lots of them. When photons come in contact with these electrons, the following can occur:

* An electron absorbs the energy of the photon and transforms it (usually into heat)
* An electron absorbs the energy of the photon and stores it (this can result in luminescence, which is called fluorescence if the electron stores the energy for a short time and phosphorescence if it stores it for long time)
* An electron absorbs the energy of the photon and sends it back out the way it came in (reflection)
* An electron cannot absorb the energy of the photon, in which case the photon continues on its path (transmitted)
[Bolding mine]

Now, this just sounds like a contradiction of what I thought I knew!

I thought that the electrons of a transparent solid, if dense and thick enough, absorbed photons and then re-emitted them.

Was I misunderstanding something?

Also, highly ordered crystalline substances such as diamond, quartz, and calcite are rigidly arranged with interesting optical properties and very nearly perfectly transparent.

Does the article author need correction, or do I need reeducation?
Please help me understand.

Cheers amidst confusion,:confused:

Dave
 
Sulpher has an amorphous state, which is just like glass, except that it is opaque.

There's more to being transparent than absorbing and reimitting photons, as you describe, were that to be how transparent materials work. for one thing the reemission would have to be coherent -- preserving the colour, phase and direction of the absorbed photon. If that wasn't the case windows would look more like light panels, rather than accurately conveying the image the other side. And forget about shining a laser through glass too.

Now, to get coherent reemission takes special circumstances (a laser, for example does this). But lasers are fixed wavelength (depending on the energy gaps in the material). Getting an electron to reemit exactly the same wavelength photon as it absorbed doesn't happen for arbitrary wavelengths.

Electrons can absorb photons if there is an energy transition matching the photon's energy. For a free electron there always is, for a bound electron there are limited choices (at the wavelengths we're talking about).

In gases the electrons are bound. The band gaps are greater than the energy of visible light, so it cannot be absorbed by that mechanism. A different mechanism is by excitation of the gas molecule (make it vibrate), but the energy to do that is (IIUC) much less than that of visible light, so absorbtion is tricky (think impedance mismatch). It is better in the infrared -- and guess what, gases are opaque to infrared.

Glasses are similar. The description you quote about glasses having voids in them allowing part of the light through is bogus[*]. If the proportion of light going through was related to the proportion of voids (which is what it seems to be claiming), then the density of glass would be tiny, for it lets through a lot of light. Furthermore there are lots of non-crystaline opaque materials with lower density than glass -- wood for instance.

[*] Does not imply deliberate intent to deceive.
 
as the substance changes to liquid or gas and the molecules are not stacked neatly anymore, gaps and holes occur that allow portions of the light waves to pass through. The greater the randomness of the molecular organization of the substance, the easier it is for the light to pass through.

This is entirely wrong. Light waves are much bigger than the average spacing of gases at standard pressure, by about a factor of 100. The general rule is that EM waves won't travel through openings smaller than the wavelength.
 
This is entirely wrong. Light waves are much bigger than the average spacing of gases at standard pressure, by about a factor of 100. The general rule is that EM waves won't travel through openings smaller than the wavelength.
Wow. And Wikipedia actually cited that in their transparency article. HyperPhysics to the rescue.
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/HFrame.html
Just use it for all your scientific questions.
I thought that the electrons of a transparent solid, if dense and thick enough, absorbed photons and then re-emitted them.

Was I misunderstanding something?
What you are thinking of is called Ralyeigh Scattering. And as nathan correctly pointed out it completely scatters the light in all directions.
In gases the electrons are bound. The band gaps are greater than the energy of visible light, so it cannot be absorbed by that mechanism. A different mechanism is by excitation of the gas molecule (make it vibrate), but the energy to do that is (IIUC) much less than that of visible light, so absorbtion is tricky (think impedance mismatch). It is better in the infrared -- and guess what, gases are opaque to infrared.
In order for a material to really absorb infrared it actually has to contain a dipole moment which is painful considering the most abundant chemical around is water and it is a really good absorber of infrared.
 
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So the bottom line seems to be that I had the wrong idea about transparent solids, but that the author of the article was also wrong. Am I correct?

I guess I must be dense, but I still don't understand what DOES cause light to pass through dense solids and what causes refractive index and slows the photons down without distorting their path enough to just scatter them.:confused:

I read the HyperPhysics entry, but all I seemed to find was similar to what you guys said. I think most transparent materials are dielectrics, but I have heard of transparent conductors, so I don't think that could be it, either.

HELP! I'm drowning in my confusion.:o

Dave
 
Light interacts with matter, period.

The only question is how.

Light propagates through matter unless it is absorbed or surface reflected. Any material that does not absorb the light will reemit it by propagation acording to refractive index, or reflection can occur at any change in refractive index.

That said, absorbtion is frquency dependant. A material can be transparent at one frquency and opaque at another.
 
I read the HyperPhysics entry, but all I seemed to find was similar to what you guys said. I think most transparent materials are dielectrics, but I have heard of transparent conductors, so I don't think that could be it, either.

HELP! I'm drowning in my confusion.:o

Dave

Light can either be stopped by reflecting it, which occurs at any interface, or by absorbing it. Most white powders (clouds, sugar, snow) have a lot of interfaces with different indexes of refraction, so reflections occur and very little light can directly pass through. This is dielectric reflection, which is always only partial reflection, except at angles where total internal reflection occurs.

Classically, conductors will move in response to the electric field of light waves, perfectly stopping the light and reflecting it backwards. This is why metals can be polished to a "mirror finish".

To absorb light, the material needs to be able to be able to make a quantum jump from one state to another. For an individual atom, these occur at specific energies and hence specific frequencies of light, which means only certain colours can be absorbed. In a solid, however, these get spread out so a range of energies can be absorbed. However, there are only bands of these: an electron needs to either get enough energy to jump over the difference between a band, or it needs to get a small enough amount of energy to stay inside a band. Bands can overlap as well, but for insulators and semiconductors the important ones are separated.

In an insulator, the electrons fill up the lowest energy bands, so they need to get enough energy to jump over a band. For something like diamond, the energy required (called the band gap) is about 5 electron volts, which is roughly 5 times the energy in a photon of visible light*. As a result photons can't be absorbed, and diamond crystals are transparent.

To get a transparent conductor, you first need to make sure no absorption happens. Then you need to have a conductor, but not one that responds to the electric field of visible light. To do this, we need to think about what happens to the electrons that are doing this conducting: the electric field is shoving them one way, and then the other, and they are moving in response. But the electrons are also attracted to the ions they came from.

The bulk electrons are attracted to the bulk ions like they were connected by a spring: if you shift the electrons, they bounce back and forth, at the natural frequency. For conduction electrons, this is the plasma frequency. Electrons can't easily move faster than the plasma frequency, and as a result the material stops acting like a conductor: it can't respond to the electric field of the light fast enough, so it can't cancel the field inside the conductor, at least not entirely. So if you just adjust the plasma frequency (which can be done in semiconductors by adding fewer conduction electrons) to below the frequency of visible light, and use a material with a band gap large enough to let visible photons through, the material will conduct and be transparent at the same time.

This is rather unusual though, most conductors are reflective, and possibly coloured if they also absorb certain energies. It's also a good idea to keep it thin, as some of the light will still be reflected.

Of course, you can describe conduction quantum mechanically rather than classically, but it doesn't change the results all that much. And if you have a good imagination, you can see how this stuff would apply to glass and liquids (disordered and dense) and gases (disordered and not dense). The article in the OP is especially bad about that, as it mentions glass and candy as examples of how disorder leads to clearness. Crystallized glass is largely quartz, and crystallized sugar is rock candy, both of which are transparent.

*Note that while you could hypothetically use 5 photons at once and have enough energy, this is really unlikely. If it can't be done with 1 photon, it probably isn't a visible effect.
 
The way I read what you two said might be paraphrased:
The light does not necessarily need high disorder or low density to pass through a material, what it needs is that no atoms near it's path have available energy levels for the electrons to jump to and absorb a photon as it moves past in the mostly empty space between the atoms, notwithstanding what Dilb wrote earlier:
... Light waves are much bigger than the average spacing of gases at standard pressure, by about a factor of 100. The general rule is that EM waves won't travel through openings smaller than the wavelength.
(I do not doubt s/he is correct in the stated facts, but it must not apply in this case).

Do I have it anywhere close to correct?

If I am close enough on that, that leaves index of refraction.
I know it is a measure of speed of light in a material relative to c.
Is it more of an example of the wave side of the duality, sort of the "drag" on the EM fields as they penetrate the substance rather than something better visualized as particle (photon) behavior?

Cheers,

Dave
 
Light interacts with matter, period.

The only question is how.

Light propagates through matter unless it is absorbed or surface reflected. Any material that does not absorb the light will reemit it by propagation acording to refractive index, or reflection can occur at any change in refractive index.

That said, absorbtion is frquency dependant. A material can be transparent at one frquency and opaque at another.
You are using the wrong terminology. If the light reemitted then it has been in fact absorbed by the material.
 
How could one test to see if a photon is the same or a different one?
If you are using a laser beam its easy because any sort of remission will whack the coherency out. Then again I don't even think you can actually detect a single photon alone so the question is a bit rhetorical.
 
If you are using a laser beam its easy because any sort of remission will whack the coherency out. Then again I don't even think you can actually detect a single photon alone so the question is a bit rhetorical.
And the reason I asked is because the OP seems to think that has been done.
 
Ignore that previous post. I was wrong. You can in fact detect a single photon and your question can be answered without detecting one photon. Namely there are two ways to figure out whether or not the photon was remitted. It either comes out at a completely weird direction or in fact the frequency shifts ever so slightly (It is detectable). My one professor actually uses a technique to detect the photons that get scattered the least in the human body in that the quickest path between two points is the most direct which means they get scattered the least.
 
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Ignore that previous post. I was wrong. You can in fact detect a single photon and your question can be answered without detecting one photon. Namely there are two ways to figure out whether or not the photon was remitted. It either comes out at a completely weird direction or in fact the frequency shifts ever so slightly (It is detectable). My one professor actually uses a technique to detect the photons that get scattered the least in the human body in that the quickest path between two points is the most direct which means they get scattered the least.
Got a reference please. AFAIK you can't detect a single photon nor can you "tag" one for later identification. Remember we are not talking about a photoelectric effect.

ETA - Let me clarify that. I do not exactly mean detect more than I mean identify the photon as it enters the "glass" and identify it as the same or a different photon as it exits.
 
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ETA - Let me clarify that. I do not exactly mean detect more than I mean identify the photon as it enters the "glass" and identify it as the same or a different photon as it exits.
Its extremely easy though. If its heading in a random direction its an photon that has been emitted by the glass. If its a different frequency its an photon that has been emitted by the glass. The only case where you have no certainty is if you are getting photons heading in the right direction and the frequency hasn't shifted. Its an interesting question related to my one professors research. Namely how do you improve the contrast of an imaging system going through the body. In that case you can try to detect the early arriving photons which are the ones that haven't been absorbed and reemitted.
http://www.technologyreview.com/biomedicine/21707/
Your right you can't tag the photon but you should be able to tell easily which ones have been scattered. Every time you have seen a laser beam crossing the sky all those photons were absorbed and reemitted by the atoms.
 
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And the reason I asked is because the OP seems to think that has been done.

Do you mean me?

I don't understand what I might have said that would imply that.

Unless possibly you refer to:
I thought that the electrons of a transparent solid, if dense and thick enough, absorbed photons and then re-emitted them.
But even so I'm not certain that in an absorption/reemission scenario one could say it's the "same" photon.

I know MacM and maybe some others have mentioned detecting a photon at one place and then later at another place further along the path (I think MacM says photons don't travel through space, but some OTHER traveling disturbance creates them locally to each of the detectors).

My understanding is that "detecting" a photon takes it out of the race and "it" cannot be detected somewhere else later.

But I might be at odds with the others who DO know physics.:)

Cheers,

Dave
 
Its extremely easy though. If its heading in a random direction its an photon that has been emitted by the glass. If its a different frequency its an photon that has been emitted by the glass. The only case where you have no certainty is if you are getting photons heading in the right direction and the frequency hasn't shifted.
You mean detecting a photon traveling in a random direction is a scientific test that identifies a photon as being a different photon? You mean there is no possibility according to science that the photon (let's call it A) has interacted with another particle and transferred some energy resulting in a lower frequency and or another direction? I gotta take your physics class cause I bet everyone gets an A.
 
But even so I'm not certain that in an absorption/reemission scenario one could say it's the "same" photon.
Nobody can say it is the same or different photon but lets watch the mental gymnastics techno tries.
 
You mean detecting a photon traveling in a random direction is a scientific test that identifies a photon as being a different photon? You mean there is no possibility according to science that the photon (let's call it A) has interacted with another particle and transferred some energy resulting in a lower frequency and or another direction?
Just double checked my Optics book. You failed.
 

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