Childlike Empress' Thread on Freemasonry

Not that different. You would have gotten a tour of a snazzy lodge room, but its not likely to be life changing.
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Maybe, but he wanted to initiate me. Not just give me a guided tour. He went really weird on me after I refused.
 
Squidgy said:
Maybe, but he wanted to initiate me. Not just give me a guided tour. He went really weird on me after I refused.
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This is going to be long but I'm not sure of a simple way to say this without offending you, so bear with me. This is probably the one thing that most non-masons don't understand, even those with perfectly good intentions:

Freemasons don't invite anyone to join. You must ask to become a member. Inviting is just not done - its a major taboo and completely disregards one of the pillars of masonic philosophy (that candidates seek masonry of their own free will and accord). In some jurisdictions they even have a tradition where a potential candidate must ask and be denied three times before being given a petition. Its not just a tradition thing either, its a practical impossibility. You can't just be "invited" and be initiated. You have to be voted on, your background investigated, and interviewed. At any time and at any point, it takes 1 freemason to halt everything and stop you from joining. And 99% of masons would be that 1 person if they saw any indication that you were "invited."

The only exception to this is people who are made "honorary" masons using the "make a mason by sight" powers that most Grand Masters have, but the number of times that power has been used could probably be counted on two hands. The only recent one I'm aware of is Ronald Reagen, and that was a long time ago. Then, such people are invited, as making people honorary masons by sight without their consent would be rather rude.

What people almost always mistake for invitations to become a member are instead invitations to take a tour of the lodge, come to a lodge dinner, or participate in some community event. You might be invited to learn more about the lodge and its members. If anyone ever "invites" you to join explicitly, they are almost certainly not a regular masonic body or the member in question has lost his mind. We have lots of fakemason groups that pretend to be real freemasons (why they do that is beyond me, it just isn't THAT special...).

I'm not trying to say you aren't being truthful about what you perceived whenever you thought this person invited you, but the two main possibilities is that it was a invitation to an event (not to join) or a non-masonic group that was trying to be fakemasons.
 
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funk de fino said:
lets throw the British Legion into the woo pot as well.

I am not a mason but have been to the local lodge with my friend who is, and my grandfather was also a mason.

People who get their knickers in a twist about them are seriously paranoid.
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The Legion is a pretty good addition, fdf.

My guess is that neither CE nor JJ have ever been invited into a club where they got to imitate Groucho Marx and refuse to join.

I'd been in De Molay, only by accident, as a youth and it was only because everyone else on the high school debate club joined.

That's the thing. These clubs are for joiners. If you aren't a joiner there's little likelihood you'd have any interest in them. When you mature and have another "chance" you usually decline because you're doing other things for your community.
 
LightinDarkness said:
Inviting is just not done - its a major taboo and completely disregards one of the pillars of masonic philosophy (that candidates seek masonry of their own free will and accord).
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Sorta. It's like you shouldn't be invited to the Kiwanis or the Elks.

There are pillars and there are "pillars".
 
stilicho said:
Sorta. It's like you shouldn't be invited to the Kiwanis or the Elks.

There are pillars and there are "pillars".
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While there may be practical traditions beyond the Kiwanis or Elks not inviting, there are deeply philosophical reasons for freemasons not doing it.

Now, there are millions of freemasons and the fraternity has been around for hundreds of years. Someone has gotten invited at some point - just as people have gotten past our background checks and interviews. But this is in the minority. Most jurisdictions have language in their rituals inquiring whether a candidate comes of his own free will and accord, that he alone sought out the fraternity, has no mercenary motives, etc. It would be extraordinarily hard for a honest candidate to answer "yes" to such questions if he were invited. But I have no doubt many have - it just seems strange to me - to lie to your future "brothers" about something so basic.

Its just a personal irritant of mine because on the interwebs everyone LOVES to proclaim they were "invited" to the masons - almost as if by being "invited" they are proving their importance or something. (NOTE: Not at all saying the person I responded to meant it this way, I'm talking about some other posts I've seen on non-JREF boards).

Freemasonry is just a club, in many ways like the Elks and Kiwanas just a social club. Like those other social clubs, all its really seeking is to do better in the community. But there is a philosophical aspect to it that sets freemasonry apart. The philosophy isn't ground shattering by any means, but adherance to those philosophical principles are pretty strict by most members..which includes no invitations, ever.
 
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LightinDarkness said:
Silly Jihad, there you go projecting on yourself again. Just because you'd never be found eligible based on immaturity doesn't mean your arch-enemies (those who dare use logic, reason, and critical thinking) would not.

Back on topic, sans troll(s):

I suppose here at JREF we are all woos too. We are a social club that promotes good things like logic and critical thinking - just like freemasonry (slightly different ideas, but things like believing in EQUALITY are the result of logic and critical thinking).

Clearly, we are woo. Someone inform Randi immediately.
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Do you consider yourself one of my arch-enemies? Hee hee! I don't take anyone seriously who uses baby language to support their "critical thinking" .

(Post reported, BTW)

LightinDarkness said:
The only exception to this is people who are made "honorary" masons using the "make a mason by sight" powers that most Grand Masters have, but the number of times that power has been used could probably be counted on two hands. The only recent one I'm aware of is Ronald Reagen, and that was a long time ago.
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What has Ronald Reagan got to do with equality?

Why was he invited to join the equality club?

:confused:

My grandfather was a freemason and his wife considered their activities to be the height of childish, self-indulgence! She had to wash and iron his garments afterwards.
 
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LightinDarkness said:
This is going to be long but I'm not sure of a simple way to say this without offending you, so bear with me. This is probably the one thing that most non-masons don't understand, even those with perfectly good intentions:

Freemasons don't invite anyone to join. You must ask to become a member. Inviting is just not done - its a major taboo and completely disregards one of the pillars of masonic philosophy (that candidates seek masonry of their own free will and accord). In some jurisdictions they even have a tradition where a potential candidate must ask and be denied three times before being given a petition. Its not just a tradition thing either, its a practical impossibility. You can't just be "invited" and be initiated. You have to be voted on, your background investigated, and interviewed. At any time and at any point, it takes 1 freemason to halt everything and stop you from joining. And 99% of masons would be that 1 person if they saw any indication that you were "invited."

The only exception to this is people who are made "honorary" masons using the "make a mason by sight" powers that most Grand Masters have, but the number of times that power has been used could probably be counted on two hands. The only recent one I'm aware of is Ronald Reagen, and that was a long time ago. Then, such people are invited, as making people honorary masons by sight without their consent would be rather rude.

What people almost always mistake for invitations to become a member are instead invitations to take a tour of the lodge, come to a lodge dinner, or participate in some community event. You might be invited to learn more about the lodge and its members. If anyone ever "invites" you to join explicitly, they are almost certainly not a regular masonic body or the member in question has lost his mind. We have lots of fakemason groups that pretend to be real freemasons (why they do that is beyond me, it just isn't THAT special...).

I'm not trying to say you aren't being truthful about what you perceived whenever you thought this person invited you, but the two main possibilities is that it was a invitation to an event (not to join) or a non-masonic group that was trying to be fakemasons.
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I'm not at all offended. I don't know anything about freemasonry, I am the first to admit it.
It was a long time ago so I don't remember the details of the conversation.
My friend was a former RAF officer and we became quite good friends. Using the word 'invite' was just a simple way of relaying what he said. He did tell me about nominations and votes etc. Anyway, point is he wanted to give me a shot at becoming a freemason.
I don't dwell on it much, just think maybe I should have given it a shot.
 
why is Freemasonery woo?
what do they belive or promote?
 
Wow, there's more of us than I thought..



LightinDarkness said:
What in the world? You ask me for a simple answer and I give it to you, then you claim its superficial?
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Yeah, that was pretty funny.

"Just give me a couple of sentences."

...

"...wait, that's it? Oh, I suppose I'm too STUPID for more than a couple of sentences, HUH?"
 
lionking said:
I am not a freemason, but if this is the best critique you can come up with it's a good thing you have seemingly left the thread.
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I didn't ask for this thread. Read answer #1 which contains the post leading to LightinDarkness starting this thread. Notice the following:

  1. It was an attack on LightInDarkness, not Freemasonary. It's in AAH now - I received a deserved yellow card for it. It's way too hot here the whole week.
  2. My opinion on Freemasonary is low.
  3. I don't think they rule anything.
So, "Childlike Empress' Thread on freemasonary" shouldn't exist in the first place, because i'm not very interested in discussing it, but as it exists, it should be moved to "Religion and Philosophy".

Check?
 
JihadJane said:
Do you consider yourself one of my arch-enemies? Hee hee! I don't take anyone seriously who uses baby language to support their "critical thinking" .

(Post reported, BTW)
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Your posts have been reported for trolling, BTW. :)

I am happy to see you are so obsessed with me Jihad, but its not healthy. I know critical thinking isn't something you are familiar with, but you really should pick it up and learn about it.


JihadJane said:
What has Ronald Reagan got to do with equality?
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Who said he was made a honorary mason only due to his feelings on merit based equality? Freemasonry is about more things that, including service to your community - which Ronald Reagen was a big proponent of at the local level.

JihadJane said:
My grandfather was a freemason and his wife considered their activities to be the height of childish, self-indulgence! She had to wash and iron his garments afterwards.
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Sure he was. I'm sure his wife based her opinions on the same sources you use to come to your conclusions, so I really don't care.
 
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Childlike Empress said:
I didn't ask for this thread. Read answer #1 which contains the post leading to LightinDarkness starting this thread. Notice the following:

  1. It was an attack on LightInDarkness, not Freemasonary. It's in AAH now - I received a deserved yellow card for it. It's way too hot here the whole week.
  2. My opinion on Freemasonary is low.
  3. I don't think they rule anything.
So, "Childlike Empress' Thread on freemasonary" shouldn't exist in the first place, because i'm not very interested in discussing it, but as it exists, it should be moved to "Religion and Philosophy".

Check?
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Well, Childlike Empress is now admitting that my other thread was completely derailed and trolled on not because of any genuine interest on freemasonry, but based on a purely personal attack which had no merit.

However, you have still made claims about freemasonry which are false, and which are made using the same logic as other conspiracy theorists. Indeed, our resident woos like Jihad have even joined to defend you and troll me. So actually it should stay in the conspiracy theory section, and it should remain here.

However, if you'd stop bumping it, it would go to the bottom of the page.
 
Dictator Cheney said:
why is Freemasonery woo?
what do they belive or promote?
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Freemasonry is not woo by even the most strict JREF standards, although with the diversity of members it has you will find those with woo beliefs. The fraternity is not woo, but there are some wooist freemasons just as woos make up every demographic in real life.

For most lodges there is a requirement that members believe in a Supreme Being, although some pretty important lodges (like the Grand Lodge of France) admit atheists. The "Supreme Being" doesn't have to be a God in any sense (although it is for some), I've met masons whose "supreme entity" was science. We don't really ask for details - if you can say that you put your faith in some sort of supreme entity it meets the requirement.

But the philosophy and point behind freemasonry is founded in enlightenment and the age of reason ideas. Equality, tolerance, separation of church and state (this is a particularly big issue for side orders like the Scottish Rite), community service, etc. Completely normal ideas now, but quite radical and heretical for their time.
 
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