Electric universe theories here.

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I don't doubt that there are lots of flying things in a coronal mass ejection process.

So we should be able to observe it in the original images, and also the RD images as "changes over time".

The point is, there are no "things", flying or otherwise, in an RD image.

That is false. If there were no 'flying things", (specifically plasma), we would not have a CME at all. The fact it's a CME *requires* that there be lots of flying plasma to be observed in both the original images, and as moving things in the RD images as well.

All of this still seems to me to be refuted by the fact that RD images aren't showing actual physical features.

That is false. A RD image from LASCO shows physical things. It shows physical stars in the background. It shows physical waves of plasma flying off the sun. It shows these things because it shows us changes over time, and also more persistent features too, as in the case of the stars and planets in the background. They physically exist in nature and they show up in the original and RD image. They show up a bit differently in the RD images than in the original images, but that "flying stuff" and those patterns exist in nature and can be observed in RD images.

Appeal to authority is only a fallacy when the authority is inappropriate.

No, it's when you *ASSUME* a person is right *ONLY* because they are in a place of authority.

(If that weren't the case, we would have to kiss the entire Common Law tradition goodbye). This Hurlburt chap seems to a very appropriate authority.

Then let him come over here and provide us with actual explanations to the details observed in these images. I'm certain he will not do a worse job that GM, but until I hear his actual explanations to these details, I can't say whether than means anything to me or not.


Then you know nothing at all about these images or the processes they show us. There is no way you can "analyze" these images properly if you don't understand what you're looking at. This is a CME event. There is no way that things are not flying around in the images because that is what the images show us. They show us "changes over time" and things that do not change over time as well. If there are changes happening we will observe them.
 
No, it's when you *ASSUME* a person is right *ONLY* because they are in a place of authority.
In formal logic, it is fallacious. In informal logic, it is not. GeeMack used it correctly in its proper - i.e., informal - context.

As to the rest: I don't seriously expect to dent your armour when you are oblivious to the blows of those far more qualified than me (or you). I just find your behaviour fascinating in a gory traffic accident kind of way.
 
That is false. If there were no 'flying things", (specifically plasma), we would not have a CME at all. The fact it's a CME *requires* that there be lots of flying plasma to be observed in both the original images, and as moving things in the RD images as well.

That is false. A RD image from LASCO shows physical things. It shows physical stars in the background. It shows physical waves of plasma flying off the sun. It shows these things because it shows us changes over time, and also more persistent features too, as in the case of the stars and planets in the background. They physically exist in nature and they show up in the original and RD image. They show up a bit differently in the RD images than in the original images, but that "flying stuff" and those patterns exist in nature and can be observed in RD images.
This is one of the delusions that Michael Mozina is spewing in this thread (others include that 171A band images can detect the tiny contribution from the photopsphere, magnetic fields do not contain energy, etc.).

RD images never show "physical things". They are computer generated animations of changes in the radiation emitted from physical things. Thus they never show persistant physical features.




The "features" in the TRACE RD animation have been explained to MM many times before but here we go again:
  1. Every pixel in every frame in the animation is a record of the change of the pixel from the previous frame.
  2. The "mountain ranges" are changes in the flares in the corona. They are probably getting brighter as they climb toward the detector. In addition the flares seem to be expanding a bit - the mountains in the "mountain range" actually appear out of nowhere during the animation (see the upper part of the animation).
  3. The "flying stuff are changes in position and temperature of the material ejected by the CME in the corona.
    They are neither "flying" or "stuff" in the RD animation..
    They are flying stuff in the original images.
Is that simple enough for you Michael Mozina?

Is there any "feature" that is not explained? If so can you tell us the frame number and list the pixels in it (see the first explanation above).

Also a link to the "RD image from LASCO shows physical things" would be good. My guess is that the "stars in the background" are actually a record of the changes in positions of the stars in the background.

ETA:
Added the bits in red.
There is no way to tell from the RD animation what actvity in the corona is changing in temperature and/or position. Astronomers thus look at the original images to identify what is happerning:
This is a snapshot of Active Region 9143 observed with TRACE in the 171Å passband, showing bright material around 1 million degrees. This image, taken at 17:07UT on August 28, 2000, shows the corona during a C3.3 flare, associated with a mass ejection (towards the upper left of the image). The associated 3.3MB AVI movie (Cinepak compressed)shows the flare and mass ejection as a difference movie: where the image turns bright, the solar corona has become brighter after 16UT, and where it turns black it has dimmed. This shows the ejected material very well, first flying upward at several hundred kilometers per second. Later, some of it is seen to fall back as a dark cloud.
T171_000828_170708.gif
 
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Excuse me, but you can't "prove me wrong" by ignoring every single detail in the image. You'd have to actually address the image *DETAILS* and explain them in some fashion or another to 'prove me wrong'. Since the whole lot of you refuses to even address *ANY* of the details of the image, you haven't "proven" anything other than the fact you collectively can't and won't explain the image.


It's been done, so you're a liar.

You guys make up strawman cartoon characteratures of my ideas and attack them, you never actually listen or respond the model I've actually presented. I doubt you could even explain it properly let, let alone honestly critique it.


Interesting comment from a guy who apparently can't explain his own idea in a way that anyone can understand.

I'm willing to do that, but you seem to refuse to even address a single specific detail of the images.


Liar.

What can I do but throw up my hands in discust?


You could actually explain what in the hell you're talking about in a way that sane, intelligent human beings could understand. You haven't done that yet.

Don't you figure there was some reason I came to these conclusions that had something to do with the details we observe in these images?


Could that reason perhaps be mental illness? What other reason do you suppose would account for the fact that nobody else interprets the details we observe in these images the same way you do? I'm genuinely curious. One of my main reasons for even staying involved in these discussion, aside from the occasional pleasure I get out of seeing you set yourself up to take another lickin', is a serious interest in the mind set of someone who could be so stupid, so totally detached from reality on one issue, as you are, and still be mentally capable of tying his own shoes, feeding himself, and performing other mundane daily tasks.

If you can't and won't explain them, all that tells me is that none of you have any valid method to explain these images in terms of standard solar theory.


When it was explained, you ignored it. You're a liar. By definition, an ignorant liar.

I tried to explain them using standard solar theory myself, but alas it never fit. Birkeland's solar model does jive with these observations of "rigid" (I'll define that for Tim in the next post) features in these images at a depth that is consistent with his experiments.


But since you can't see anything below about 500 kilometers into the photosphere, you're clearly wrong. Also, and probably more importantly, since you've proven that you'll misrepresent Birkeland in order to support your delusion, your interpretation of any of his work is so subjective as to be scientifically useless.

This coming from the guy that hasn't touched a *SINGLE* specific detail that that specific image... Yawn. More personal attack, no focus on the science. You folks are becoming painfully predictable.


As are your incessant lies.

If you mean "learning about" all sorts of invisible metaphysical friends of yours, no, not really. If you mean learn about this image based on standard solar theory, I am interested in hearing your explanation.


No, you're not. You've proven that beyond a shadow of a doubt.

So far however, none of you have addressed any of the key observations of the image, so it is not as though any of you have actually "tried" to explain any of the "physics" for us.


Liar. You want actual physics, go take a course.

What can I do?


Since you asked, you could learn to read and write English in a way that allows you to actually communicate effectively with sane, intelligent human beings? You could maybe see a mental health professional and work on getting back in touch with reality? You know, since you asked.

I can't make you address the details of the image, but the fact you won't touch them tells me volumes. None of you really have a valid explanation of what's going on at the level of actual physics.


Start with a couple of sequential 171Å wavelength images of million-ish degree emissions from a CME located in the coronal region of the Sun, some 2000+ kilometers above the photosphere and outward. Run those images through a software program that compares them pixel by pixel and prints a graph or chart showing the difference between each corresponding pixel. Oddly, that output image may appear to show texture, surface features, and terrain. Of course that apparent terrain isn't actually a surface. It is a simple, easily understood optical illusion that has been thoroughly explained by the actual experts who were responsible for designing the research program, and acquiring and processing the data. There's all you need to know about the physics of your running difference image, Michael. You can probably learn about the physics of the CME itself by studying any starting level college textbook that deals with solar physics.

One paragraph. Boy, was that easy. And you've been lying about getting no explanation for how many years now?

If it's not a math formula, and it's about actual physics and physical processes, you guys don't understand diddly squat. You're all bluster, and no science. Not one detail in that image has been touched by any of you.


Details? Touched 'em all, liar.

And, how about this one? Why is there not one single researcher, educator, or other professional in any field related to solar physics who thinks you're right about your fantasy? How is it that you've never piqued anyone's interest in this solid surfaced Sun crap enough to get anyone to work with you, do some math that you obviously can't do, help you with the physics that you are so woefully ignorant of, explain your wacky conjecture in plain English since you are unable to do that yourself? Really, a sane person would look for rational answers to those questions. Only a dyed-in-the-wool lunatic crackpot would ignore them. Where are you on this, Michael?
 
It's been done, so you're a liar.

WHICH SPECIFIC detail did you address? Details? What details?

Interesting comment from a guy who apparently can't explain his own idea in a way that anyone can understand.

I've done so plenty of times to people who *WISH* to actually 'understand'.


This is your typically sleazy sort of response. You are the liar. You've not discussed a single detail in the image. The few things you actually stated were clearly false. "Flying stuff? What flying stuff?" You're pathetic
 
Yeah? Everyone else believes me and none of them believe you, so I'm kickin' your ass here, ain't I? :D

If anybody actually does believe you, you're only leading them ridiculously astray with pure BS. "Flying stuff? What flying stuff?" Sheesh.
 
This is one of the delusions that Michael Mozina is spewing in this thread (others include that 171A band images can detect the tiny contribution from the photopsphere,

Er, where did I say it could detect tiny contributions from the photosphere? You made that up on your own.

magnetic fields do not contain energy, etc.).

I didn't say that either. I said magnetic fields lack physical substance and they form as a complete and fully formed continuum, without beginning, without end, and without the ability to "reconnect" to other "lines".

RD images never show "physical things". They are computer generated animations of changes in the radiation emitted from physical things. Thus they never show persistant physical features.

They also show the changes *OF* physical things, like the location of the "flying stuff" blowing from the lower right toward the upper left after the CME event. It is because that "flying stuff" changes locations that we are able to watch it move! Get real.

The "features" in the TRACE RD animation have been explained to MM many times before but here we go again:
  1. Every pixel in every frame in the animation is a record of the change of the pixel from the previous frame.


  1. We all agree with that point. So how is that specific to any particular detail in the image?

    [*]The "mountain ranges" are changes in the flares.

    The features aren't "changing" however. Why is that?

    They are probably getting brighter as they climb toward the detector.

    Then why are the bases of the loops always brightest in the 171A solar moss images?

    In addition the flares seem to be expanding a bit - the mountains in the "mountain range" actually appear out of nowhere during the animation (see the upper part of the animation).

    They don't appear out of nowhere, the structures don't exist in the first frame because there is no image before that first frame to compare it to or subtract it from. All RD images become persistent with two usable original images, but you need a minimum of two of them. This particular image could be an "averaged' image but these items do not just "appear out of thin air". They last for days in SOHO and STEREO RD imagery.

    The "flying stuff are changes in position and temperature of the material ejected by the CME.

    Hey, you actually "explained" real visual detail of the RD image! Congrats.

    They are neither "flying" or "stuff" in the RD animation..

    Ooops, you then blew it. False. The plasma that comes from the CME is certainly visible in the original and RD image. There is "flying stuff" in both sets of images. The lighter parts of the RD image is where the hot stuff moved to, whereas the darker regions are where the hot stuff moved from. You can see the changes over time, but those changes are directly related to flying plasma in the solar atmosphere. These features are not there just because. They are there because there is flying stuff in the atmosphere which moves during the CME process.

    They are flying stuff in the original images.

    Ok, but now which is it? Is plasma flying around in these images or not? You can't have it both ways.

    Is that simple enough for you Michael Mozina?

    Not really. You more or less contracted yourself particularly on point 3. You didn't address any of the persistent features (why they are persistent), why we observe a peeling effect during the process, etc. It's a rather limited "explanation", but you did get on thing right.

    Is there any "feature" that is not explained?

    Ya, all those persistent angular features, that peeling effect we observe, the visual changes related to the "flying stuff" after the CME, etc. There's a lot you didn't touch.

    If so can you tell us the frame number and list the pixels in it (see the first explanation above).

    Pick any of the full frames and explain the angular features.

    Also a link to the "RD image from LASCO shows physical things" would be good. My guess is that the "stars in the background" are actually a record of the changes in positions of teh stars in the background.

    Try the SOHO archives. They are arranged by date in monthly folders. Look for *_dit images.
    http://lasco-www.nrl.navy.mil/daily_mpg/

    Show me any angular features in a LASCO RD images that are persistent over time and that are directly related to the RD imaging process rather than something actually in the image.
 
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RC just explained it clearly. Again.
Not only is he incapable of understanding the many simple explanations of the RD animation that he has been given over many years, he is also unable to comprehend the actual caption for the TRACE 171A image and RD animation:
Coronal mass ejection
This is a snapshot of Active Region 9143 observed with TRACE in the 171Å passband, showing bright material around 1 million degrees. This image, taken at 17:07UT on August 28, 2000, shows the corona during a C3.3 flare, associated with a mass ejection (towards the upper left of the image). The associated 3.3MB AVI movie (Cinepak compressed)shows the flare and mass ejection as a difference movie: where the image turns bright, the solar corona has become brighter after 16UT, and where it turns black it has dimmed. This shows the ejected material very well, first flying upward at several hundred kilometers per second. Later, some of it is seen to fall back as a dark cloud.
The bright and dark areas of his "mountain ranges" are explained by the scientists who took the images as temperature changes!
The movement of his "flying stuff" is the CME ejected material flying upward and then falling back.
 
Not only is he incapable of understanding the many simple explanations of the RD animation that he has been given over many years,

You mean like "flying stuff, what flying stuff"?

he is also unable to comprehend the actual caption for the TRACE 171A image and RD animation:
Coronal mass ejection

The bright and dark areas of his "mountain ranges" are explained by the scientists who took the images as temperature changes!

Nobody is disputing the statement that the bright process observed is a CME, so what does that have to do with 'mountain ranges" prior to the CME event and after the CME event is over? Those angular features are there before, during and after the CME.

The movement of his "flying stuff" is the CME ejected material flying upward and then falling back.

They didn't claim "flying stuff? What flying stuff?", did they?
 
Flying stuff in the CME. No flying stuff in the RD images. Why is this so difficult to understand?

The RD images do show the flying stuff too. You can see it move from the CME event location in the lower right, and move toward the upper left during the CME process. There is certainly "flying stuff" that shows up as brighter, *AND FAR MORE MOBILE* regions in the image. What's so difficult to understand about that?
 
I didn't say that either. I said magnetic fields lack physical substance and they form as a complete and fully formed continuum, without beginning, without end, and without the ability to "reconnect" to other "lines".

You seem to be losing track of your claims in this thread:

Um, they keep talking about how energy is "stored" in a magnetic field of loops composed of light plasma. How exactly is that energy "stored" in your opinion? The reason we have powerful magnetic fields to look at is *BECAUSE OF* the CURRENT flowing inside the thread. Energy isnt' stored in the magnetic field. That's like claiming a lightning bolt "stored" magnetic energy just prior to release. What are you talking about and what are they talking about when you claim that plasma "stores" magnetic energy?
 
The RD images do show the flying stuff too. You can see it move from the CME event location in the lower right, and move toward the upper left during the CME process. There is certainly "flying stuff" that shows up as brighter, *AND FAR MORE MOBILE* regions in the image. What's so difficult to understand about that?

Allow me to be clearer:

Flying stuff in the CME. Illusion of flying stuff in the RD images. Better?
 
http://trace.lmsal.com/POD/images/T171_000828_170708.gif
FYI, here is an original image from that set which you can find on RC's link.

Notice that the "flying stuff" can be seen moving up and toward the top of the image. That flying stuff moves over time and therefore it shows up in the RD image as a moving light and dark pattern moving from the lower right toward the upper left of the image. The only reason we observe these things in the RD image is because they exist in the original images too.
 
Allow me to be clearer:

Flying stuff in the CME. Illusion of flying stuff in the RD images. Better?

Not really. It's not an "illusion" of any sort. It's a real process having a real effect on the RD images. The movement of the hot material is visible in both the original 171A images and also in the RD images. There is no "illusion" involved. It's real in every way.
 
Not really. It's not an "illusion" of any sort. It's a real process having a real effect on the RD images. The movement of the hot material is visible in both the original 171A images and also in the RD images. There is no "illusion" involved. It's real in every way.

You're one in a million Michael. You really are.

@RC and GeeMack
Thanks for the educational info and I hope your blood pressure is OK.
 
You seem to be losing track of your claims in this thread:

The part you highlighted was perhaps overly simplistic and confusing. My bad. What I was trying to point out is that the magnetic field that we measure in this light plasma is *CAUSED BY* the flow of electrical current through the loop. A coronal loop is not a "frozen" magnetic line, but rather it is a moving column of flowing plasma full of kinetic energy, much like any discharge in the Earth's atmosphere. The magnetic fields are not there all by themselves doing all the work by themselves, and they are not driving the parade. The magnetic fields exist *BECAUSE OF* the current flow inside the loop and they are generated by the current flow inside that loop that is heating the plasma inside the loop. The field that forms does in fact "store energy", but only while the current flow remains. Once that current flow stops flowing through the loop, the field dissipates and it fades away just like when you turn off an ordinary plasma ball.
 
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