Government run health care and government run schools

OK, you're wrong when you imply that you have clearly stated your position.

Is that better?

If you want to follow Architect's lead and engage in argument ad populum, then yes, I suppose for that purpose it is. Congratulations, Rolfe: you've proven me wrong by consensus.
 
Can you prove any of that? I don't think so.

You can't honestly believe that our justice system is cost effective. Here's a article, for instance, about a study that found "privately run prisons produce results equal to or better than publicly run correctional institutions and at a lower cost": http://www.prisonpolicy.org/scans/sparksfly.shtml . And you can't possibly think the prosecutorial side of our justice system is efficient. The trial of OJ is a case in point.

Why did you assume that I meant "prisons and prosecutions" when I said "justice", and why did you assume I was limiting my scope to the US? And why did you ignore the part of my post that talked about profit motives and perverse incentives? Are you completely ignorant of history?

Your link is also worthless -- a hodgepodge of quotes does not equal evidence. Show me the numbers.

Nor can you honestly believe that Medicare, Medicaid and other government run portions of the health care system are efficient and cost effective. Here's an article (http://blog.heritage.org/2009/06/22...e-costs-rise-faster-than-private-sector-care/ ) on how government-run health care costs are rising faster than private sector care.

Again with the US centric viewpoint. First, the article you link to appears to be very selective in its analysis of data -- something I expect from the Heritage Foundation.

Second, virtually every other developed Western democracy has universal health case in one form or another, and they end up paying about half what we do on a per-capita basis for better overall outcomes. Rolfe, darat, and several others have explained this ad nauseam in several different threads. Overall, they have health care systems that are cheaper and more effective than ours at making sure people stay healthy and don't get forced into bankruptcy due to things beyond their control. Maybe our government is uniquely incompetent at administering a healthcare system, but that does not excuse the huge amounts of wasteage our current hodgepodge of private insurers inflict upon us in the name of profit.

And do you really think the military can be fairly described as a "cost effective" organization? No, it's a get the job done no matter the cost organization. As the cost of numerous wars prove. As the cost of military equipment and parts prove. There is a reason that civilian organizations are asked to perform certain functions for the military. Cost.
My point was more along of the lines of the nightmare that would be a private military organization whose services were for sale to the highest bidder, or do you really think that society would be better served by having multiple mercenary military organizations instead of our current arrangement?

As for police, I again challenge your claim. What proof can you offer that a government-run police organization is less expensive than a private one? I can offer sources like this:

http://books.google.com/books?id=_b...5rjmDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2

Sorry, I can't be bothered to read the whole book to digest your point. Summarize it, please. So we have private security services, and rentacops are cheap. I don't care about that. I care about not returning to the days of Pinkertons distorting the market by enforcing the will of the highest bidder using quasi police powers, or justice not being done because you can't afford it -- those lines are blurry enough as is without a profit motive entering into it.


As for government funded air traffic control being less costly (you're not the first to suggest this one), are you kidding?

The cost inefficiency of the FAA is notorious. How could an organization that allows controllers to earn over $200,000 a year, not including benefits, be considered cost effective compared to a private run system? Even the FAA recognizes the problem (http://www.dot.gov/affairs/faa060205.htm ) but have they really done anything to fix it?

And if government run air traffic control is such a good idea, why have so many countries gone in the other direction? Here:

http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-34639774_ITM
I have never payed much attention to privatized air traffic control. As I said, they were examples pulled off the top of my head. It may be that a well-regulated for-profit market in that area is more efficient than a non-for-profit one, although how such a market would be structured is beyond me. I will concede the point for now.
 
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The argument against universal health care is ridiculously simple:

The government's too incompetent to run the few social progams that already exist. Giving it a broader mandate to waste taxpayer money is just the product of irrational idealism and wishful thinking.
 
I just don't understand American posters who assume that universal healthcare means that only the universal system will exist.
HR 676, which had almost 100 cosponsors in the House of Representatives last Congress, explicity stated that the government plan would cover all medically necessary procedures, and any insurance plan that covers a procudere the government covered would be illegal.

Gosh, I have no earthly idea where anyone could come up with the notion you've described.
 
The argument against universal health care is ridiculously simple:

The government's too incompetent to run the few social progams that already exist. Giving it a broader mandate to waste taxpayer money is just the product of irrational idealism and wishful thinking.
Really. Then how does every other developed Western democracy manage it?

Besides, UHC does not have to be perfect, it simply has to be more competent than our current system in the USA. Judging by the healthcare systems in most other developed nations, this is a fairly easy task -- at least it would be if the major HMOs and insurance companies were not so good at marketing and making a profit via arguably unethical means.
 
Piss-up, brewery....

Well, I'm pretty glad I don't live in America then.

Ziggurat, the more money you have, the more choices you have, in almost every area. Nobody is disputing this. If people didn't have to pay taxes, then the vast majority of them will have more money. This is also axiomatic.

These are commonplace platitudes. I think everyone was paying you the compliment of assuming you were repeating them because you had a point you wanted to make.

We have now established that no, you don't actually have a point.

Will that do?

Rolfe.
 
HR 676, which had almost 100 cosponsors in the House of Representatives last Congress, explicity stated that the government plan would cover all medically necessary procedures, and any insurance plan that covers a procudere the government covered would be illegal.

Gosh, I have no earthly idea where anyone could come up with the notion you've described.


So once upon a time someone proposed a bad idea. Soome people supported it. One wonders whether their motives might not have been more of the wrecking variety than genuine enthusiasm (I've seen it before - interest groups supporting something that was blatant nonsense, because they wanted to discredit the idiots who were proposing it, and to make sure that the entire issue was buried for the next 10 years).

This does not mean that no other ideas can be considered, and that the entire concept must be rejected because of course there's no other way to do it but that discreditied proposal. :rolleyes:

Rolfe.
 
I think everyone was paying you the compliment of assuming you were repeating them because you had a point you wanted to make.

We have now established that no, you don't actually have a point.

Do me the favor of not pretending that you're being polite when you try to insult me.
 
I wasn't pretending I was being polite.

Now, about that point you didn't clarify whether or not you ever intended to make....

Rolfe.
 
So once upon a time someone proposed a bad idea.
HR 676 is back again this term. It's even got the same bill number.

Soome people supported it.
90+ Congressmen is a little more than "some."

One wonders whether their motives might not have been more of the wrecking variety than genuine enthusiasm
You need to take a look at who cosponsored the bill. I'll sum it up for you: the loudest whiners in the "health insurance for all" noisebox.

This does not mean that no other ideas can be considered, and that the entire concept must be rejected because of course there's no other way to do it but that discreditied proposal. :rolleyes:
You were the one who wondered why some are of the opinion that the plan would make government the only vehicle for health insurance.

If you didn't want the answer...
 
HR 676 is back again this term. It's even got the same bill number.
And aside from the no competition clause, it looks like a reasonable stab at a government run UHC system. It has the great benefit of being short and to the point.
 
The argument against universal health care is ridiculously simple:

The government's too incompetent to run the few social progams that already exist. Giving it a broader mandate to waste taxpayer money is just the product of irrational idealism and wishful thinking.

Our government could do a great job at all of it's social programs. The reason it doesn't do very well is because of the opposition, the conservatives tend to do things that handicap these programs. Medicare is not allowed to barter for lower prescription drugs because of a rule mandated by conservatives, for example. The government isn't always a failure, take our military, for example, it's the gold-standard in the world. The mandate to have universal health care is not the product of irrational idealism, but of observation of what we could have. Many, many other modern societies have universal health care, and it works well.
 
If you've got a point to make, make it. Otherwise I call derail.

Rolfe.

It's a common technique used by Truthers; refuse to say what you actually think happened because then everyone else can poke holes in it. Instead, "just ask questions". Ziggy is particularly adept at it, then acting hurt when people summarise his position.

BeAChooser, in comparison, does actually state a position and backs it up with links, etc. most of the time. I may disagree with him (profoundly), but it seems to me that he's much more interested in debate/discussion.
 
Really. Then how does every other developed Western democracy manage it?

Besides, UHC does not have to be perfect, it simply has to be more competent than our current system in the USA. Judging by the healthcare systems in most other developed nations, this is a fairly easy task -- at least it would be if the major HMOs and insurance companies were not so good at marketing and making a profit via arguably unethical means.

The United States is not "every other developed western democracy". Tiny countries with large revenues from natural resources (Norway) and a much more active lifestyle might be able to pull it off.

We can't. We can't run Social Security. We can't run Medicaid. We can't run the freaking Veteran's Administration and health care for our own soldiers.

If you think our government can somehow take on the health care of the entire population of the US then you're operating on the exact same kind of faith that tells a Christian that God will solve all his problems. Only in this case, your "God" is Government.

Hallelujah.
 
The United States is not "every other developed western democracy". Tiny countries with large revenues from natural resources (Norway) and a much more active lifestyle might be able to pull it off.


How do (say) France, Germany, or the UK fall into this category (popn. 50m, 60m, 80m or thereabouts respectively)?

We can't. We can't run Social Security. We can't run Medicaid. We can't run the freaking Veteran's Administration and health care for our own soldiers.

Aha. The "piss up in a brewery" argument. Really, why not get a competent government instead?

If you think our government can somehow take on the health care of the entire population of the US then you're operating on the exact same kind of faith that tells a Christian that God will solve all his problems. Only in this case, your "God" is Government.

See above.
 

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