• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

29 Structural & Civil Engineers Cite Evidence for Controlled Explosive Demolition

Chris,

Why is it that you will not respond to ANY of my questions, but have some of yours?? I am noticing a pattern here. Why is Chris ignoring me??? Is he afraid to try to debate with SOMEONE WHO WAS FREAKING THERE????????????
 
um
i was pointing out
that you linked a video that "truth?"ers would normally not post cause it shows the east mechanical penthouse collapse
False assertion. People referenced all the videos. Some videos showed the penthouse collapse, some didn't.

as opposed to this video that "truth?"ers like to cite as "evidence" that cuts out half the collapse

so the NIST video (that you linked) is unedited beyond that, the YT video uses the audio track from the previous cut over the raw audio of the collapse evidence of a "douche bag job" the fact that obviously altered video is used as a "smoking gun" by your movement"
Nice tap dance and subject shift. ;)

The computer generated model was truncated less than half way thru the collapse. There was no reason to stop at that point other than in the model the building was distorting badly and that did not happen in the videos.

You also ignored the fact that the horizontal collapse does not occur in the NIST video.
 
Chris,

Why is it that you will not respond to ANY of my questions, but have some of yours?? I am noticing a pattern here. Why is Chris ignoring me??? Is he afraid to try to debate with SOMEONE WHO WAS FREAKING THERE????????????

Chris has a real problem with the truth. (Here is where I gave up on him forever.) That's why he's ignoring you. I strongly suggest you consider Ignoring him as well...

And welcome, by the way. The Truth Movement shuns discussion with eyewitnesses and experts in general, apart from their hand-picked few, so expect to be treated as though you are radioactive. :D
 
I caan tell you what caused the collapse, and I am not a PE, or AIA, or ASCE, or any other professional orginization, other than IAFF UNION Firefighter.

You see, a REALLY FREAKING BIG building fell down right near there. Some of this REALLY FREAAKING BIG building HIT this smaller building, causing significant damage. (I have seen the damage first hand, with my own two eyes, on the very freaaking day it happened )

This caaused it to catch on fire. Usually, if something is on fire, especially something REALLY BIG, crashes into ANOTHER building, it USUALLY catches fire. Now, this smaller buidling is on fire. We tried to fight the fire, but it was TOO UNSAFE to continue to fight this afaorementioned fire. We know, even as lowly firefighters, that any building that gets hit with another building and caatches fire, its usually not a safe place to be. Especially when we could see the HUGE AMOUNTS OF FIRE in that smaller building. OVER MANY FLOORS.
This might be a little much for your tiny mind to understand, but even lowly firefighters know that fire + metal of ANY kind = NOT A SAFE BUILDING!!!


The fire burned out of control for a few reasons.
#1- We had lost, at that point, 343 firefighters, plus, many more were still missing and unaccounted for. We were not going to risk MORE LIFE to put out a fire that was burning out of control.

#2- The BIGGEST reason, is because were din't have any PRESSURE in our water lines to even TRY to fight a fire. Heck, I heaard many firefighter that day say " ◊◊◊◊ it. Let it burn to the ground." I myself miht have even said it, heck, I saaid alot of things that day. Some of it I do not remember, because stress and shock tend to play mind games with you.


Now, we know that a fire burning uncontrolled in any building is not safe. But, especially in a high rise, with significant structural damage.


So, does this explain whata happened?? I tried to use small words so you could understand what I was saying. Capise???

C7, Why won't you reply to this poster? He was there and he went through the whole scenario for you. Are you afraid to answer his post?
 
Yes dear, but the 'global' collapse is when the entire building is falling. The free fall acceleration has been documented and 'peer reviewed' by none other than NIST itself. Your inability to understand this simple fact has left you befuddled.

Of course perhaps there is another explanation, and I would be interested in C7's words of wisdom. Perhaps the interior collapse and the exterior collapse are related? As the interior collapses it puts energy into the perimeter frame, thus causing the perimeter frame to fail rapidly.

Try it with an elastic band.
 
Chris has a real problem with the truth.
Kiss my what?

(Here is where I gave up on him forever.) That's why he's ignoring you. I strongly suggest you consider Ignoring him as well...

And welcome, by the way. The Truth Movement shuns discussion with eyewitnesses and experts in general, apart from their hand-picked few, so expect to be treated as though you are radioactive. :D
Intellectual cowardice and acute snobbery.

ETA: My response to Here
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=4402841#post4402841
It seems you are the one with a truth problem.

You knock down strawmen but refuse to deal with critical issues like; free fall acceleration cannot occur in a progressive collapse or the NIST video does not match the collapse videos.

You have nothing of value to offer, just the usual JREF hand wave and insults.
 
Last edited:
Of course perhaps there is another explanation, and I would be interested in C7's words of wisdom. Perhaps the interior collapse and the exterior collapse are related? As the interior collapses it puts energy into the perimeter frame, thus causing the perimeter frame to fail rapidly.
Rapidly yes, free fall acceleration no.
 
So you responded to ONE of my many posts.

Think about this for a minute.

There are unexplained annomolies (Sp?) in this world. Ie: How was the earth formed.

Well, there is one side, and that is religion, they believe that God spoke and it happened.

Then there are the scientists that believe in a big bang.


Does this mean that something could have happened that we cannot explain? Yes. Does it mean it CANNOT happen?? No. It just means we cannot explain it.

What part did you not understand?? I have pleanty of free time tomorrow to walk you through it, step by step, with vivid detail and graphic descriptions for you if you'd like.
 
The exterior columns were intact except for 7 on the south west side.
Yes, read what I wrote though. The columns were not connected to one another. The report says they were not supported horizontally. This is a very unfavourable situation for a column. The fact that the columns were all free to buckle between floors 7 and 14, means they weren't supported over at least that length.

[The core was pulling the exterior columns inward as it fell according to NIST.
This is about the top part of the building, as I understood it. The above is about floors 7-14. There is no contradiction between these two things.

The the weight of the core area has been transferred to the exterior columns.
Exactly, and at the bottom of the building, this added weight adds up to more than the buckling strength of the columns. When a column starts to buckle, its loading becomes ever more asymmetrical, causing it to buckle more, and to support less. That's why it took only seconds for all exterior columns to buckle.

Give it up. NIST verrified David Chandlers data. You are lying about the camera being shakey in a desperate attempt to deny that statement of fact in the NIST report.
I'm not lying; you're missing the point. I'm not disputing the data. I'm just pointing out that deriving accelerations from a movie is difficult, so an error of a percent is not hard to make, especially since you have to differentiate the movie data twice. And a percent resistance is about all the columns could have provided after buckling.

Double talk. The floor beams were pulling the exterior walls in on all floors above the collapse zone. The load was transferred to the exterior columns. 50 exterior columns had to be crushed or pulled/pushed out of the way.
Yes, and over at least 7 floors height these columns were not braced, heated by fires and loaded asymmetrically. My crude estimate shows that this reduces their load bearing capacity to virtually nothing.

Let's look at the "Physics based model" NIST has provided.

http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/releases/wtc_videos/wtc_videos.html

Note that the horizontal collapse across floors 7 - 14 doesn't happen.

Houston, we have a problem!
What? What are you talking about? You can see the columns buckle over a length of (I count) 9 floors right at the end of the film you linked to. This means that over that height the columns were not laterally supported. And tell me, at what acceleration does the top part of the building fall in the simulation? Oh, that's right, it says right in figure 12-77. Well, I guess it must have been a demolition then, eh?

Oh, did you try standing on an empty soda can already?

ETA: I also notice in figure 12-77, that the time derivative of the curve fit trough the movie data is at one point steeper than the red line that represents g (32.2 ft/s2). I hope you agree that this indicates that curve fitting this data isn't exactly an exact science.
 
Last edited:
The exterior columns were intact except for 7 on the south west side.
Yes, read what I wrote though. The columns were not connected to one another. The report says they were not supported horizontally. This is a very unfavourable situation for a column. The fact that the columns were all free to buckle between floors 7 and 14, means they weren't supported over at least that length.
Man, have you got that all wrong.
There were moment frames on every other floor. I don't remember all the details but the exterior walls were extremely well tied together.

Where did you get your info?

Exactly, and at the bottom of the building, this added weight adds up to more than the buckling strength of the columns. When a column starts to buckle, its loading becomes ever more asymmetrical, causing it to buckle more, and to support less. That's why it took only seconds for all exterior columns to buckle.
The problem is, the building went from not falling to free fall acceleration instantaneously. That means all the exterior columns failed simultaneously and instantaneously. That can't happen. The buckling takes a short amount of time but not fast enough to result in simultaneous, instantaneous free fall.

C7 said:
Give it up. NIST verified David Chandlers data. You are lying about the camera being shaky in a desperate attempt to deny that statement of fact in the NIST report.
I'm not lying; you're missing the point. I'm not disputing the data. I'm just pointing out that deriving accelerations from a movie is difficult, so an error of a percent is not hard to make, especially since you have to differentiate the movie data twice. And a percent resistance is about all the columns could have provided after buckling.
H, the camera was NOT shaky and the rest of that doesn't make nay sense.

C7 said:
Double talk. The floor beams were pulling the exterior walls in on all floors above the collapse zone. The load was transferred to the exterior columns. 50 exterior columns had to be crushed or pulled/pushed out of the way.
Yes, and over at least 7 floors height these columns were not braced,
At this point none of the exterior columns were braced by any of the floors but the moment frames braced the exterior walls in the vertical and horizontal planes of the wall.

heated by fires and loaded asymmetrically.
Most of the fires had burned out and the walls cooled down when the fires moved on. Only a few small areas were hot.

My crude estimate shows that this reduces their load bearing capacity to virtually nothing.
Very crude and based on bad data. Show your math before making those kind of statements.

C7 said:
Let's look at the "Physics based model" NIST has provided.
http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/r...tc_videos.html
Note that the horizontal collapse across floors 7 - 14 doesn't happen.
What? What are you talking about? You can see the columns buckle over a length of (I count) 9 floors right at the end of the film you linked to.
But that is not the way NIST said it happened. NIST said the all the core columns collapsed over 7 floors progressing from east to west and they had all collapsed before the onset of 'global collapse'. That did not happen in the video.

They say the model collapsed at free fall acceleration but it can't buckle the walls as shown and fall at free fall acceleration.
 
Last edited:
Man, have you got that all wrong.
There were moment frames on every other floor. I don't remember all the details but the exterior walls were extremely well tied together.

Where did you get your info?
I got it from two lines before the freefall phase quote you like so much. It says that just before the final collapse, and after the core columns had collapsed, all perimeter columns were laterally unsupported on three out of four sides.
NCSTAR 1-9 p.588 said:
As the interior columns buckled across the building, the exterior columns were left laterally unsupported normal to the east, south and north faces.

The problem is, the building went from not falling to free fall acceleration instantaneously. That means all the exterior columns failed simultaneously and instantaneously. That can't happen. The buckling takes a short amount of time but not fast enough to result in simultaneous, instantaneous free fall.
It went from not not falling to freefall in almost 2 seconds. Buckling is an unstable phenomenon. Asymmetric loads cause buckling, which creates more asymmetry etc. Now your hunches as to how long that takes are not really useful. I prefer numbers.

At this point none of the exterior columns were braced by any of the floors but the moment frames braced the exterior walls in the vertical and horizontal planes of the wall.
...leaving them free to buckle in any perpendicular direction. Read the quote from the report above.

Most of the fires had burned out and the walls cooled down when the fires moved on. Only a few small areas were hot.
Do you have a source for this claim? Where were the hot spots?

Very crude and based on bad data. Show your math before making those kind of statements.
Didn't you see the math? The model shows exterior colums buckling between at least floors 7 and 14. (figures 12-62 and 12-63), meaning these columns were unsupported over about that length before buckling. Normally the columns are unsupported over the length of one storey, but at that point a length of 7 storeys or more. Load bearing capacity for columns is proportional to the inverse square of the unsupported length. That is, if I increase the unsupported length by a factor of 7, the load bearing capacity will decrease by a factor 72. Asymmetry in the loading can further decrease this dramatically, as you will see as soon as you stand on an empty soda can.

Now assuming that the loadbearing capacity is 1% of its orignal value, the opposing force to the collapse is 1% of the weight of the top part of the building. The top part will then be pulled down by a force of 99% of its own weight, causing it to fall at 99% of g. This gives us a ballpark estimate showing us that a collapse over 8 storeys at g is well within the error margins of extrapolating acceleration from video.

So tell me, where is my error?

But that is not the way NIST said it happened. NIST said the all the core columns collapsed over 7 floors progressing from east to west and they had all collapsed before the onset of 'global collapse'. That did not happen in the video.
What? No they had all buckled, not collapsed. that is, the insides of the building were not supported anymore, and therefore also not structurally connected to the perimeter anymore.

They say the model collapsed at free fall acceleration but it can't buckle the walls as shown and fall at free fall acceleration.
I'm sure this made sense to you when you wrote it down, but I'm not sure where you get this bizarre disconnect from.
The exterior columns clearly buckle in the model, and the top part falls at freefall acceleration in the model, and does so while the columns are buckling.

H, the camera was NOT shaky and the rest of that doesn't make nay sense.
Okay it wasn't shaky. Doesn't change much though. It's not exact data. It's data that's as good as it gets. They fit a curve through the data and see that the acceleration is not distinguishable from freefall, meaning that the load bearing capacity of the supporting columns is not distinguishable from zero in the context of having to support two thirds of a building.
 
Last edited:
Chris,

Others here, with more experience dealing with you than I have, have concluded that you're an average, garden variety troll. I'm starting to agree with them.

Patterns, patterns, patterns...

There were moment frames on every other floor. I don't remember all the details but the exterior walls were extremely well tied together.
.
It's not that you don't remember the details. You don't understand the details.

If the last few days of discussion is any indication, you don't care about the details.

No part - especially the structural support members - of ANY building that is IN THE MIDST OF A TOTAL COLLAPSE can be accurately described as "extremely well tied together".

That presupposes one is concerned with "accuracy". And honesty.

The problem is, the building went from not falling to free fall acceleration instantaneously. That means all the exterior columns failed simultaneously and instantaneously.
The buckling takes a short amount of time but not fast enough to result in simultaneous, instantaneous free fall.
.
"... instantaneously..."?? Oh really.

And here you were giving lectures on the difference between "lying" and simply "being mistaken"...

Christopher7 said:
There is a difference between being wrong and lying. Lying is "knowingly" saying something that is not true.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=4403368#post4403368

You know, you're absolutely correct about that.

And here, just yesterday, you finally admitted that the "near G" fall was NOT instantaneous. But took 1.75 seconds to rise from zero to G.

Christopher7 said:
I will change my position when presented with evidence, you will not.

You know, Chris, this is starting to sound damn ironic. And empty.

I presented PROOF. You accepted it yesterday.

And the very next day, you're back to "same old, same old".

At this point none of the exterior columns were braced by any of the floors but the moment frames braced the exterior walls in the vertical and horizontal planes of the wall.
.
Gee, I wonder what happens to a 470 foot high, incredibly narrow wall that is NOT supported in the direction normal to the plane of the wall? They are incredibly unstable. They collapse.

Most of the fires had burned out and the walls cooled down when the fires moved on. Only a few small areas were hot.
.
Irrelevant.

Very crude and based on bad data. Show your math before making those kind of statements.
.
Funny. I showed you math. You ignored it completely.


tom
 
Last edited:
WTC7Column79.jpg

Anyway, I was looking at WTC7 and I noticed that it wasn’t looking like it was straight. It was really weird. The closest corner to me (the SE corner) was kind of out of whack with the SW corner. It was impossible to tell whether that corner (the SW) was leaning over more or even if it was leaning the other way. With all of the smoke and the debris pile, I couldn’t exactly tell what was going on, but I sure could see the building was leaning over in a way it certainly should not be. I asked another guy looking with me and he said “That building is going to come down, we better get out of here.” So we did. http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2041454#post2041454

...
The problem is, the building went from not falling to free fall acceleration instantaneously. That means all the exterior columns failed simultaneously and instantaneously. That can't happen. The buckling takes a short amount of time but not fast enough to result in simultaneous, instantaneous free fall.

...
You can't handle the truth, the building was falling and at one point the building failed and part of the building was not supported and it fell. Wowzer. The building burned, the building failed; thousands of buildings have burned and failed. If you use steel you get failure fast; this is why we have fire systems, insulation, and when things go bad we have evacuation.

What is the point? You have failed to make a case for explosives, silent explosives, thermite which never was used because there is no thermite products on the steel or in the building ruble. Failure comes in many forms in your case it is a massive failure due to lack of knowledge and evidence.

There were no explosions from high power explosives, and your thermite delusions would need massive amounts to do anything more than weld things together.

All 29 plus x-perts in the this OP failed to do anything to support their moronic delusions and you continue to beat your free-fall idiocy into the ground with zero ability to tie it to explosives or super-nano-big-lie-thermite.

One of the 29 expert spews how the WTC buildings are like trees and should fall over like a tree. He offers zero evidence for thermite and explosives just like you and he has to makes up chitchat to lay a smoke screen to sucker in the unaware as he hides behind the fact he is an engineer who has unknown experience save watching redwood trees falling over like all the 110 story high-rises he never built. Why does Robertson think your ideas and these failed 29 people are ridiculous? Yes, he built the WTC towers and Robertson knows you are full of lies and delusions.

Nathan Lomba, Structural Engineer, of Eureka, California, states more junk ideas and compares trees to the WTC.
"I began having doubts about, so called, official explanations for the collapse of the WTC towers soon after the explanations surfaced. The gnawing question that lingers in my mind is: How did the structures
collapse in near symmetrical fashion when the apparent precipitating causes were asymmetrical loading? The collapses defies common logic from an elementary structural engineering perspective. “If” you accept the
argument that fire protection covering was damaged to such an extent that structural members in the vicinity of the aircraft impacts were exposed to abnormally high temperatures, and “if” you accept the argument that the temperatures were high enough to weaken the structural framing, that still does not explain the relatively
concentric nature of the failures.

Neither of the official precipitating sources for the collapses, namely the burning aircraft, were centered within the floor plan of either tower; both aircraft were off-center when they finally came to rest within the respective buildings. This means that, given the foregoing assumptions, heating and weakening of the structural framing would have been constrained to the immediate vicinity of the burning aircraft. Heat
transmission (diffusion) through the steel members would have been irregular owing to differing sizes of the individual members; and, the temperature in the members would have dropped off precipitously the further away the steel was from the flames—just as the handle on a
frying pan doesn't get hot at the same rate as the pan on the burner of the stove. These factors would have resulted in the structural framing furthest from the flames remaining intact and possessing its full
structural integrity, i.e., strength and stiffness.

Structural steel is highly ductile, when subjected to compression and bending it buckles and bends long before reaching its tensile or shear capacity. Under the given assumptions, “if” the structure in the vicinity of
either burning aircraft started to weaken, the superstructure above would begin to lean in the direction of the burning side. The opposite, intact,
side of the building would resist toppling until the ultimate capacity of the structure was reached, at which point, a weak-link failure would undoubtedly occur. Nevertheless, the ultimate failure mode would have been a toppling of the upper floors to one side—much like the topping of a tall redwood tree—not a concentric, vertical collapse.

For this reason alone, I rejected the official explanation for the collapse of the WTC towers out of hand. Subsequent evidence supporting controlled,
explosive demolition of the two buildings are more in keeping with the observed collapse modalities and only serve to validate my initial misgivings as to the causes for the structural failures."

What evidence is this super-nano-expert hiding? He never presented the evidence. He did present nut case engineering. Trees fall over so the WTC would fall over. With experts like this who needs evidence we have pure moronic opinions from an expert in making up stuff. He failed to make a case for whatever he think did the failure. Sad man who makes up lies based on his own lack of knowledge and failure to research the WTC towers or 911. All 29 are failures on 911. A list of 29 people with doltish ideas for the gullible.

Please stop looking knowledge free on 911 and support the 29 people with dirt dumb moronic conclusions like you have. Bring out the evidence. It is time to step up and present the evidence and stop the failed opinion fest.
 
Falling over like a tree:confused:
He makes some pretty fast handwaving at the hinge part, guess he realice the difference in strenght of trees and skycrabers.
 

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom