Deeper than primes

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Lewis Carroll on acid

Sounds like my cue for another attempted explanation of what Doron's about.
I can't resist the puzzle.
And I don't mind chucking up another false answer.
It's the journey, you know.

Yes, I hear you, "Give it up, Apathia. There’s no answer to this puzzle!"
You're very likely right.
No answer except of the sort of the sound of one hand clapping.

"Friend Vrs. Enemy"
Doron says that our existence as a species is at steak, because we continue to categorize people.
One is in the "set" of Friend. Another in the "set" of enemy. And there's no overlap.
Setting a person as exclusively a member of a category, localizes that person.
But there is an aspect of us, indispensable to being a person that isn't "local."

That is that you are a "distinct" (another important Doron word) individual whose relation to categories is such as to be both within and without them.
First of all, before analyzing you into a category identity, you are just who you are.

Doron feels science misses this important aspect of our being and forever wants to make us localized objects of analysis that are identified by restrictive categories.

What is to be done to rescue our humanity from this death?

Doron's answer: rework, retool mathematics (since it's the language of science), so that it involves as well the non-local distinctiveness of things being primarily just what they are in their own distinct light.

So, he sets out to give numbers that same respect.
Enter the Organic Numbers ("organic being used here in contrast to analytical numbers), where a number has not only the "serial," analytic aspect that we are accustomed to, but also has that "parallel" existence outside being counted. It's sitting within/without prior to being some sum or difference.

Doron's fractal diagrams set out the various combos of these aspects, each combo being an Organic Number.
It's his way of bringing that essential, outside, independent, distinct, transcendent selfhood into a conceptual framework.

This is by means of the fractal combos.
To be way over simple (but not much off the mark),
here's "friend" and "enemy."
Applying the "non-local" to these categories, we find a person, not merely a friend or an enemy, but there are combos such as "friend-enemy" or "enemy-friend," or "friend-friend." ("friend-enemy-friend" would be to much fracturing for this particular, except the ongoing fracturing practically deconstructs the whole business.)

That's pretty much the program.
The question than becomes: is this actually how we deal cognitively with the relationship between the individual and the collective?
Add to that the question: Does treating the concept of number in this way humanize mathematic cognition?

Now everyone asks Doron (and I did for a long time till I saw it wasn't in his intention):
given this new system of number, what mathematical results can be derived?
And can you use it to reconstruct the theorems we use in everyday practical and scientific mathematics.

Doron's not going there.
In fact we are expecting him to do something that isn't in the Organic Math agenda, except in the restricted "serial," step by step department.
In his broader notion of non-locality, such analytic approaches as if-then deduction, and use of the Law of Contradiction are too restrictive to grasp the intuition of number being prior to serial counting. How many is merely a restricted aspect of a thing or things that can stand alone outside the count.
He's content with showing his underlying bridgework between the Local and the Non-Local. It's not about proofs and theorems as we know them, especially when the tools of deduction are cleared off the table.

Making a conceptual framework of what is beyond concept is the business of Metaphysics of the old school.
Doron, uses mathematical language and terms metaphysically,
OK, if the disclaimer is made up front.
Otherwise, it can’t but look like gibberish, when you’re expecting deductive mathematics.
 
Sounds like my cue for another attempted explanation of what Doron's about.
I can't resist the puzzle.
And I don't mind chucking up another false answer.
It's the journey, you know.

Yes, I hear you, "Give it up, Apathia. There’s no answer to this puzzle!"
You're very likely right.
No answer except of the sort of the sound of one hand clapping.

"Friend Vrs. Enemy"
Doron says that our existence as a species is at steak, because we continue to categorize people.
One is in the "set" of Friend. Another in the "set" of enemy. And there's no overlap.
Setting a person as exclusively a member of a category, localizes that person.
But there is an aspect of us, indispensable to being a person that isn't "local."

That is that you are a "distinct" (another important Doron word) individual whose relation to categories is such as to be both within and without them.
First of all, before analyzing you into a category identity, you are just who you are.

Doron feels science misses this important aspect of our being and forever wants to make us localized objects of analysis that are identified by restrictive categories.

What is to be done to rescue our humanity from this death?

Doron's answer: rework, retool mathematics (since it's the language of science), so that it involves as well the non-local distinctiveness of things being primarily just what they are in their own distinct light.

So, he sets out to give numbers that same respect.
Enter the Organic Numbers ("organic being used here in contrast to analytical numbers), where a number has not only the "serial," analytic aspect that we are accustomed to, but also has that "parallel" existence outside being counted. It's sitting within/without prior to being some sum or difference.

Doron's fractal diagrams set out the various combos of these aspects, each combo being an Organic Number.
It's his way of bringing that essential, outside, independent, distinct, transcendent selfhood into a conceptual framework.

This is by means of the fractal combos.
To be way over simple (but not much off the mark),
here's "friend" and "enemy."
Applying the "non-local" to these categories, we find a person, not merely a friend or an enemy, but there are combos such as "friend-enemy" or "enemy-friend," or "friend-friend." ("friend-enemy-friend" would be to much fracturing for this particular, except the ongoing fracturing practically deconstructs the whole business.)

That's pretty much the program.
The question than becomes: is this actually how we deal cognitively with the relationship between the individual and the collective?
Add to that the question: Does treating the concept of number in this way humanize mathematic cognition?

Now everyone asks Doron (and I did for a long time till I saw it wasn't in his intention):
given this new system of number, what mathematical results can be derived?
And can you use it to reconstruct the theorems we use in everyday practical and scientific mathematics.

Doron's not going there.
In fact we are expecting him to do something that isn't in the Organic Math agenda, except in the restricted "serial," step by step department.
In his broader notion of non-locality, such analytic approaches as if-then deduction, and use of the Law of Contradiction are too restrictive to grasp the intuition of number being prior to serial counting. How many is merely a restricted aspect of a thing or things that can stand alone outside the count.
He's content with showing his underlying bridgework between the Local and the Non-Local. It's not about proofs and theorems as we know them, especially when the tools of deduction are cleared off the table.

Making a conceptual framework of what is beyond concept is the business of Metaphysics of the old school.
Doron, uses mathematical language and terms metaphysically,
OK, if the disclaimer is made up front.
Otherwise, it can’t but look like gibberish, when you’re expecting deductive mathematics.
Aphatia,

First, thank you very much for your profound post, it is beautiful.

Doron's not going there.
Not correct.

This is the whole point, I am going both directions and show that, for example, the concept of Number is not less than the result of the interaction between the researcher's memory and the researched subject (abstract or not).

By using this fundamental attitude, we can't ignore ourselves as a significant factor of any investigation that uses numbers.

This "tiny change" has a tremendous influence on our abilities to define a bridge between our ethical and logical\technological skills, where Complexity\Simplicity development is in direct ratio with what is considered as good, and Complicated\Trivial "development" is in direct ratio with what is considered as bad.

Furthermore, I explicitly show how OM causes a tremendous change on fundamental mathematical concepts like, Non-finite, Limit, Number, Relation, Element, Function (mapping), Logic, and more …

At the beginning of the 21th centaury we can't ignore ourselves as significant factors of our actions (abstract or not) because we achieved the power that enables to destroy ourselves, and it will happen if we continue to ignore ourselves as significant factors that have a real-time responsibility during any abstract or non-abstract scientific development.

The days of dichotomy between local Ethics and non-local Logic\Technology are gone, and if we very soon not get it and define the non-local foundations of both our Ethical AND Logical\Technological skills under a one organic framework, we are gone (we will determine the final value of parameter L in Drake's equation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_equation ) ).

Here is again an example that uses direct perceprion in order to understand the real-line:

According to Standard Math, there is one and only one set of elements, called real numbers, along the real-line, which are filtered according to some principles.

We can use Ford Circle ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_circle ) in order to rigorously demonstrate it:

[qimg]http://www.geocities.com/complementarytheory/FordC.jpg[/qimg]

The whole numbers are the result of a filter that ignores the existence of elements between some two given locations (the whole numbers are based only on elements like these two given locations).

The rational numbers are the result of a filter that ignores the existence of elements that are not based on tangent circles, between some two given locations (the two given locations are included in the collection of rational numbers).

The irrational numbers are the result of any location between some two given locations that are not the results of the previous two filters.
 
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Doron,

I'm glad that I get the skinny of it. Maybe we can move on to productive discussion after all.

But I have to get off to work right now. I'll comment more later.

Furthermore, I explicitly show how OM causes a tremendous change on fundamental mathematical concepts like, Non-finite, Limit, Number, Relation, Element, Function (mapping), Logic, and more …

Indeed, you come at these in a unique way, but not such that makes of them the analytic building blocks contemporary mathematics is accustomed to.
 
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Doron,

I'm glad that I get the skinny of it. Maybe we can move on to productive discussion after all.

But I have to get off to work right now. I'll comment more later.
Thank you,

Have a nice day.


Indeed, you come at these in a unique way, but not such that makes of them the analytic building blocks contemporary mathematics is accustomed to.
What you call "the analytic building blocks" are the particular serial case of OM's reasoning.

Also the serial case is changed by a paradigm-shift, because under OM it is not anymore the one and only one view, as it is used by Contemporary Mathematics.
 
Sounds like my cue for another attempted explanation of what Doron's about.
....
Making a conceptual framework of what is beyond concept is the business of Metaphysics of the old school.
Doron, uses mathematical language and terms metaphysically,
OK, if the disclaimer is made up front.
Otherwise, it can’t but look like gibberish, when you’re expecting deductive mathematics.
Many thanks for that, it makes some kind of sense, and seems to chime with the gist of what I gleaned from the papers. In the absence of a Rosetta Stone too ;)

What I don't see is how this formal language is applied - i.e. how the bridge to ethics & morality functions in the application of it. That's why I'd like to see some practical examples.
 
What you call "the analytic building blocks" are the particular serial case of OM's reasoning.

Yup, I see that.
That special serial case is what every mathematician here is looking for.
And you're not restricting yourself to, or even going down that track.
I'm not expecting you to, as I was before.

More comments on Organic Mathematics later.
 
Many thanks for that, it makes some kind of sense, and seems to chime with the gist of what I gleaned from the papers. In the absence of a Rosetta Stone too ;)

What I don't see is how this formal language is applied - i.e. how the bridge to ethics & morality functions in the application of it. That's why I'd like to see some practical examples.

I'm not seeing that either, and that's where I expect some dirivation.
But I suspect it comes more to a methodology of taking the two poles of an ethical issue (assuming it has two poles) and looking at how they can be combined in relation to each other.

Doron's up top example is Us vrs. Them.
The ethical landsacape changes when we look for the us of them and the them of us.
Perhaps there are issues where one needs to chart out a deeper fractal.

His goal is to escape black and white thinking in respect to moral issues.
Instead it's black-white-black-white thinking.
 
But I suspect it comes more to a methodology of taking the two poles of an ethical issue (assuming it has two poles) and looking at how they can be combined in relation to each other.
Via this pseudo-mathematical formal language... I can't see it happening.

His goal is to escape black and white thinking in respect to moral issues.
Instead it's black-white-black-white thinking.
Certainly, the goal is admirable enough (if that really is the goal), but black & white moral or ethical thinking is the preserve of the sort of people who can't undertake a mature objective analysis of the issues - even if a formal mathematical language could express or account for moral or ethical values, they'd only be interested if it supported their dogmas.
 
Via this pseudo-mathematical formal language... I can't see it happening.


Certainly, the goal is admirable enough (if that really is the goal), but black & white moral or ethical thinking is the preserve of the sort of people who can't undertake a mature objective analysis of the issues - even if a formal mathematical language could express or account for moral or ethical values, they'd only be interested if it supported their dogmas.

People who can see persons beyond black and white predjudice and bigotry do, and that within and in spite of a lot of different world views.
And however we do come to express our core values in our own personal philosophy, the decisions we must make never come as easy as a calculation.
(Well, maybe is like a non-linear quadratic equation. And the test period ends and I'm sitting there feeling like a loser.)
 
Doron, you are ignoring what has been said to you about this several times. We, I and others posting in this thread, have no interest in discussing Moshe's work with you, especially since you don't understand it.

I'll ask Moshe to make a registration.

It is going to be an interesting dialog with you, more than you expect, especially because your ignorance about Organic Numbers is going to be exposed and maybe the members of this thread will learn something about you and about Organic Numbers.

Remember, we are talking about http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4839507&postcount=3906 , and also do not forget that Moshe's English writing skills is less than my English writing skills, but English is not the case here.
 
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I'll ask Moshe to make a registration.
Good, it's better to be talking straight to the horse's mouth.

It is going to be an interesting dialog with you, more than you expect, especially because your ignorance about Organic Numbers is going to be exposed and maybe the members of this thread will learn something about you and about Organic Numbers.
Our "ignorance" of "Organic Numbers" is very unsurprising. We've been "educated" about it by someone who is wildly incompetent at both English and mathematics.
 
Many thanks for that, it makes some kind of sense, and seems to chime with the gist of what I gleaned from the papers. In the absence of a Rosetta Stone too ;)
Before you get too elated about Apathia's post, a small forewarning. Apathia's tried to do this before, and invariably, sooner or later he got burned when it turned out that his interpretation was not what Doron meant. So don't get your hopes too high up.

What I don't see is how this formal language is applied - i.e. how the bridge to ethics & morality functions in the application of it. That's why I'd like to see some practical examples.
Nor does anyone else here. Doron ties in the whole world and then some in his cooky theories. Ethics is just one thing. We've also seen political systems, and, let's not forget, the existence of ET can also be calculated from his "theories". This kind of "explains the whole world" theories should set off your crackpot meter.

Practical examples: none seen so far, and we've been asking for over a year.
 
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