How does the Qur'an stack up to the Bible?

[Safe-Keeper]

OK, so like many others here, I've been trying to read the Bible, and, uh, well...

Yeah. That sums it up nicely.

Anyway, after spending way too much time at both Bible Gateway and The Brick Testament, I've decided that maybe the Qur'an might be a better bet. 'Cause, you know, the Muslims moderates are always insisting it's so lovely and full of laws insisting you think critically and love your neighbor and doesn't contain evil at all. Now, granted, this is exactly what Christians and Jews say of the... work referred to above, but whatever, I'm feeling naive, so I might as well give it a try. Before I venture further into it, however, let me ask those of you who have read it to tell me what to expect. Is it better than the OT? Better than the NT? What should I expect?

ETA: Wow, we've got this right at the first page:

Muhsin Khan
: The Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace , not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger (such as the Jews), nor of those who went astray (such as the Christians).​

Granted, the parentheses are an interpretation (I think), but still... can you spell foreshadowing?

 

[oldhat]

Try reading it first instead of using starting this thread as an excuse to bash it for you beforehand.

You've already formed an opinion. Why are you asking?

 

[Safe-Keeper]

I'm not bashing it. I'm asking a question. There's no law stating I can't ask questions about a movie, book, song or other work before delving into it myself. In fact, this is common practice. Should I buy this CD? You've watched the new Star Trek film, right, is it any good? Harry Potter seems really childish, but should I give it a chance?


ETA:

You've already formed an opinion.

My opinion/hypothesis, not stated in the OP, is that there will probably be a huge improvement over the OT and maybe even the NT, seeing it took form in a later time, but that there will still be a lot of bad stuff down the road.

 

[Hokulele]

What do you mean by "better"? I found it to be an interesting complement to the OT, but other than that the language is a little more poetic than the NT, but the message is basically the same. "We're right, they're wrong."

One thing to watch out for is the translation (are you reading it in English or Norwegian?). There are as many different translations of the Qur'an as there are of the bible, and some of them seem to be specifically written so as to minimize the shock of some of the nastier passages (such as the bit about beating one's wife).

 

[HansMustermann]

I've actually read a translation of the Quran, though sadly I no longer have it. So this is just from memory.

On the whole, I'm not left with the impression that it's any worse than any other religion.

In a sense, I think it's more coherent than the Bible, since it's what one single guy preached, as opposed to a collection of retcons and changing myths over the span of a thousand years or more.

Do note though, that it's not 100% coherent though, or even close. I'm just saying "more coherent than the Bible", i.e., pretty much on par with saying that someone is more honest than Uri Geller

It contains a dose of verses which are less than certain to have been actually said by the prophet (the whole thing was collected some time after his death, not in real time after each speech) and even the so called "satanic verses." (Also of Salman Rushdie fame) Supposedly there the devil tricked the guy that he's the other party and gave him awfully wrong orders.

And bear in mind that you can't have any major religion if it's not malleable like Play Doh. It can support pretty much any twist you want to support.

E.g., historically the Islam has been fairly benevolent towards at least the other two abrahamic religions. The Jews for example did a lot better under the Cordoba caliphate than under Spain, and christian serfs escaped to the turkish lands were generally treated better than in their own christian lands.

Or the saracens were pretty benevolent to the christians in Jerusalem and allowed christian pilgrims to come and go as they wish. Though they did ask for a tax to enter the city. But they were smart enough to not slay the goose that lays golden eggs, so you'd be fairly well treated as a ticket-buying christian pilgrim in their lands.

And of course you can find the verses that support that.

But the Wahhabi sect which begat the modern fundamentalists is also just as muslim, and can find the verses to support _their_ interpretation.

Or in the Barbary wars a major issue was that the Barbary states took christian slaves, and thought that they have full support in the Quran for that. But the funny thing is that equally you can find support for the idea that they _shouldn't_.

So, basically, as I was saying it's Play Doh, like any other religion.

In case you don't know much about it, it claims to be basically Judaism 3.0, with Christianity being Judaism 2.0. Or rather a deviation from what Judaism 2.0 was supposed to be. They do recognize Jesus as a prophet, along with all the prophets of the OT, but IIRC not as "son of god" or anything equally silly. On the whole, IMHO it's really more of a sequel to Judaism than Christianity, and really pretty much a sequel rather than continuation.

 

[I Ratant]

"In case you don't know much about it, it claims to be basically Judaism 3.0, with Christianity being Judaism 2.0. Or rather a deviation from what Judaism 2.0 was supposed to be. They do recognize Jesus as a prophet, along with all the prophets of the OT, but IIRC not as "son of god" or anything equally silly. On the whole, IMHO it's really more of a sequel to Judaism than Christianity, and really pretty much a sequel rather than continuation."
,
That's my take on it also.
Basically an updated form of Judaism, with some Arabic culture specific conditions added.
And can be interpreted any old way the Imam or Mullah wishes.

 

[davefoc]

For anybody else like me that wasn't aware of the source for the opening post:

It's Numbers 31:17
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=4&chapter=29&version=31

The targeted group is the Midianites. They seem to be a group that Moses and the Israelis fleeing Egypt came across in the desert. Apparently they had been bad to the Israelis and the Moses wanted his armies to seek vengeance. Initially his army just killed all the adult men, but God as per Moses thought this wasn't sufficient and that all the boys and non-virgin women should be killed also.

Note, I don't think any of this happened. I think the whole Moses thing is almost a complete fabrication.

 

[ixolite]

Is it better than the OT?

No. Imo it's even worse. In the Koran you have not only the (explicit) permission of pedophilia (Q 65:4 + 33:49), but also the (general) order to murder infidels (Q 9:5), as well as the permission of violence against women (Q 4:34).

 

[linusrichard]

No. Imo it's even worse. In the Koran you have not only the (explicit) permission of pedophilia (Q 65:4 + 33:49), but also the (general) order to murder infidels (Q 9:5), as well as the permission of violence against women (Q 4:34).

I get how that makes the Koran bad, but I don't get how it makes it worse than the OT.

"Isn't there one person in the city worth saving?"
"Well, yeah, the guy who offered to let a mob gang-rape his daughters."
"Oh, yeah, him! He's worthy! What about his wife?"
"Maybe, providing she doesn't look back as she's fleeing the city."
"Yeah, that would be bad."

-- typical moral lesson from the Old Testament

 

[Marduk]

when I read it the only conclusion I came to is that it is written for normal uneducated people to read while the bible was written to be read by educated priests

 

[headscratcher4]

I've been reading a biography of Mohammad which has been interesting on a number of levels. First, I guess I hadn't fully realized how culturally volitile the Arabian penninsula was at that time. Pagan, Jewish, Christian influences abounded and each clearly had some influence on Mohamad.

Another intersting assertion in the bio is that the Q'ran was orginally designed as a oral communication of Allah/God's words. Mohammed recited god's word and did so, apparently, almost as a chant and very much in keeping with the oral/story telling tradition of the Arabian people. The point was that the Q'ran (which, I gather literally means recitation) wasn't writen down until after Mohamad had died. The bio suggested that the power of the Q'ran was in the words and the recitation and cant. That listening to it is like hearing a song and can be almost trance inducing (which leads me to wonder if it is ever possible than to translate it out of the Arabic for seemingly the Arabic give it its power, and if it can't be tranlated out of the Arabic faithfully, how can it be the universal word of god?).

The novelty of Mohamad's preaching, apparently, wasn't apparently in his call for fealty to Allah (the High God of Mecca -- and not unlike the Torah's various incarnations of god who is superior to other gods but not quite clearly a sole god), but rather in Mohamad's incorporation of God's judgement and life after death. The pagan Arabs', seemingly, believed that Gods were eternal and people only had this life to live. That the suggestion that there was life after death and of god's judgement on this life as a measuring factor for how one would enjoy or suffer eternity, was apparently a profoundly revolutionary vision for 7th Century Arabs.

Anyway, I guess I was struck by the bit about the Q'ran's power as an orally transmitted story as opposed to a written story. If you don't know Arabic and can never experience it as poetry in the orginial language, what is its real power?

 

[TimCallahan]

Generally speaking, I found the Qur'an (though admittedly its translation into English) to be tediously repetitive and generally inferior to both the Hebrew and Christian Scriptures in terms of narrative. While the Qur'an is roughly the same length as the New Testament, it contains much less material becuse of its repetition. Apparently, the archangel Gabriel forgot that he had already revealed particular stories to the Prophet and thus repeated himself over and over again. One of thse stories is about how Iblis (pronounced ihb-LEESE), one of the jinn, refused to bow to Adam as commanded by God. For his disobedience, Iblis is condemned and driven out by God and becomes Satan. He later revenges hmself by tempting Adam and Eve as the serpent.

While some of the narratives of the Old Testament are at least partially historical, all of the narratives of the Qur'an are myth, often cobbled from many sources. For example, Surah al-Kahf ("the cave," Surah 18) contains three stories. One of them, about a group of pious youths who sleep for over 100 years in a cave, is based on a sixth century Christian legend, "The Seven Sleepers of Ephasis." Another tells how Duh'l-Qarnayn ("two horns") a.k.a. Alexander the Great, put up an iron gate at a pass in the Caucasus to keep out Gog and Magog, who were molesting the civilized lands. This story and the gate are alluded to by Josephus in his "Jewish Wars." The third story tells of Moses journeying with a semi-divine being who is probably a pagan Arabic presonage called al-Khidir, "the Green One," a version ofthe Green Man. The story may derive from a Jewish tale of Rabbi Joshua ben Levi travelling with the prophet Elijah, or that story may derive from the one in the Qur'an. Elijah could be compared to al-Khidir, since Elijah, having been caught up into heaven, didn't die and thus, like al Khidir, was thus ever-young (or evergreen). Surah 18 has the virtue of having fairly well developed narratives. Most narratives in the Qur'an are fragmentary and allusive.

The Qur'an is also excessively self-refencing, particularly in the openings of the surahs. Here are a few examples. The surahs are listed by number. For example Q2 is surah 2. The "Q" stands for Qur'an.

Q2:2a This is a Scripture in which there is no doubt.

Q11:1 This is a Scripture whose verses are perfacted, then set out clearly from One who is wise, all aware.

Q12:1, 2 These are the verses of the Scripture that makes things clear - We have sent it down as an Arabic Qur'an so that you may understand.

Q15:1 These are the verses of the Scripture, a Qur'an that makes things clear.

Q32:2 This Scripture, free from all doubt, has been sent down from the Lord of the Worlds.

Q40:2 This Scripture is sent down from God, the Almighty, the All Knowing . . .

Q45:2 This Scripture is sent down from God, the Mighty, the Wise.

 

[FireGarden]

While the Qur'an is roughly the same length as the New Testament, it contains much less material becuse of its repetition. Apparently, the archangel Gabriel forgot that he had already revealed particular stories to the Prophet and thus repeated himself over and over again.

I found that annoying, too.

While some of the narratives of the Old Testament are at least partially historical, all of the narratives of the Qur'an are myth, often cobbled from many sources.

Plenty of myths given, much as parables are given.
But there are some historical stories. The local histories are the ones that come to mind at the moment: Mohammed being accused of just retelling fairy-tales of the ancients; various battles/politcal disagreements. There's also the prediction given in
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ar-Rum
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith_of_the_prediction_in_Sura_al-Rum

The pagans in Mecca were having a laugh because the Romans, followers of the One and Only Abrahamic God, had just lost to pagan Persians. The Quran predicts a turn around within a few years.

 

[headscratcher4]

Don't you think the repetition is as much a function as the fact that it was an verbally transmitted story...like Homer?

 

[FireGarden]

And another thing which I thought was strange...
The suras are collected pretty much in order of length. (The opening sura, al-fatiha, is short. Given the meaning of the word, it would have been silly to put it at the end!).

Surely choronological order would have been best. Even if some had to be left out because no-one knew when they were written. Or ordered according to topic, though that would mean splitting Suras (which weren't necessarily "revealed" all in one go anyhow. In fact, I don't know why verses are collected in suras the way they are.)

As it is... the early Suras tend to be short, and therefore towards the end of the book.

 

[FireGarden]

Don't you think the repetition is as much a function as the fact that it was an verbally transmitted story...like Homer?

That may be a factor.
I also find Mozart's Eine Kleine Nachtmusik annoying. I forget which movement, but it is absolutely brilliant, brilliant, brilliant... Then it starts again. No! If I wanted to hear it again, I'd hit a button and start the track again. Why didn't Mozart think of that?

OTOH, I listen to heavy metal. I don't mind the repetition there.

 

[Nogbad]

I think you need two korans for a bible - otherwise the table will wobble.

 

[davefoc]

... While the Qur'an is roughly the same length as the New Testament, it contains much less material because of its repetition....

I wonder if that is true. Matthew and Luke repeat most of what is in Mark and there is some other shared material between Matthew and Luke so there is much less material dealing directly with the life of Jesus in the NT than is assumed by many people I suspect. The repeated sections of the NT also belie the idea that there are four independent sources about the life of Jesus in the NT.

 

[JohnG]

Anyway, after spending way too much time at both Bible Gateway and The Brick Testament, I've decided that maybe the Qur'an might be a better bet.

The Skeptic's Annotated Quran might interest you. The same site also contains an annotated Bible and Book of Mormon.

The third story tells of Moses journeying with a semi-divine being who is probably a pagan Arabic presonage called al-Khidir, "the Green One," a version ofthe Green Man. The story may derive from a Jewish tale of Rabbi Joshua ben Levi travelling with the prophet Elijah, or that story may derive from the one in the Qur'an. Elijah could be compared to al-Khidir, since Elijah, having been caught up into heaven, didn't die and thus, like al Khidir, was thus ever-young (or evergreen). Surah 18 has the virtue of having fairly well developed narratives. Most narratives in the Qur'an are fragmentary and allusive.

At one point I became strangely obsessed (long story) about learning about al-Khidir and all of his manifestations (some believed that St George was an incarnation of the same being). The stories you reference about Moses and al-Khidir seem designed to quell skepticism regarding acts of god that are seemingly immoral or nonsensical.

 

[Marduk]

Don't you think the repetition is as much a function as the fact that it was an verbally transmitted story...like Homer?

Its tradition and dates to the days when compositions were set down on clay tablets, it became neccesary to repeat each end passage at the start of each new tablet so that the text was read in the correct order, page numbers weren't invented then