Home made energy scams

Wow! where do I begin? What is a carbon motor? AC-DC transformer? Step down DC? not a simple feat.
Where are all the engineers? Too much woo!

You can generate AC or DC with a windmill. If you had an AC generator and a governor that kept it at 60 Hz, you could not store the power easily, and would be limited to having to use it only while the wind is blowing.

You could rectify the AC to make it DC, and store it in batteries.

Generating DC permits you to store "power" in batteries directly for use when the wind is not blowing. Now, you have to convert the DC in the batteries to AC at 60 Hz using an inverter.

Solar gives you only DC. Converting a house to DC is absurd. Making your own efficient solar cells is not an option.

I recommend reading the link I provided. This guy knows what he is talking about.

http://www.nlcpr.com/Deceptions6.php
 
Olowkow said:
Wow! where do I begin? What is a carbon motor? AC-DC transformer? Step down DC? not a simple feat.
Where are all the engineers? Too much woo!
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Ok.If I understood your post:
AC-DC transformer: Device used to scale down voltage and then rectify to form DC. (usualy transformator and then diodes or similar)
Step down DC:Decreasing voltageof DC. (No transformator)

(Any correcitons welcome ;) )
 
I've got a friend running on Solar and batteries. He has a generator for backup, but claims he only uses it when he pumps water to fill his holding tank. He's in the AZ high desert so gets good sunlight like 347 days a year.

But his land is off the grid, and his (small) house was built intended for DC from the beginning. And it wasn't cheap; IIRC, it was like $20K for the panels and batteries about 10 years ago.
 
Klimax said:
Ok.If I understood your post:
AC-DC transformer: Device used to scale down voltage and then rectify to form DC. (usualy transformator and then diodes or similar)
Step down DC:Decreasing voltageof DC. (No transformator)

(Any correcitons welcome ;) )
Click to expand...
Ok. I am an electronics engineer.
A "transformer" is a device that converts AC of one voltage to AC of a higher or lower voltage. It consists of a pair of isolated windings on a core of iron plates, or a toroid made of powdered iron.
There is no such thing as a AC to DC transformer. That would be called a "rectifier".
To "step down" DC you would either use a voltage divider (wastes power as heat) or you would have to convert DC to AC then back to DC again at a lower voltage. These devices are quite common these days. Called DC to DC converter. "Transformator" is not a word that I understand. I am still wondering what a "carbon motor" is.:)
 
CynicalSkeptic said:
I've got a friend running on Solar and batteries. He has a generator for backup, but claims he only uses it when he pumps water to fill his holding tank. He's in the AZ high desert so gets good sunlight like 347 days a year.

But his land is off the grid, and his (small) house was built intended for DC from the beginning. And it wasn't cheap; IIRC, it was like $20K for the panels and batteries about 10 years ago.
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Good for him. There would be something so satisfying about being that self sufficient.
 
Terminology may vary a bit, particulary across languages.
There is no such thing as a AC to DC transformer. That would be called a "rectifier".
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To me it would be a transformer with a brigde diode and capacitator.
It would e.g. turn 230VAC into 24VDC.

To "step down" DC you would either use a voltage divider (wastes power as heat) or you would have to convert DC to AC then back to DC again at a lower voltage. These devices are quite common these days. Called DC to DC converter.
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Or one of those swichtmode converters you have in computers and lightweight stereos.
They take your input voltage and swicht it on and of really quickly to maintain the desired output voltage acros a capacitator.

"Transformator" is not a word that I understand. I am still wondering what a "carbon motor" is.
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Transformer and universal motor, the later having carbon brusches.
 
Toke said:
To me it would be a transformer with a brigde diode and capacitator.
It would e.g. turn 230VAC into 24VDC.

Or one of those swichtmode converters you have in computers and lightweight stereos.
They take your input voltage and swicht it on and of really quickly to maintain the desired output voltage acros a capacitator.

Transformer and universal motor, the later having carbon brusches.
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1. analog power supply using a transformer, bridge, and filter cap
2. switching power supply, using a transformer, bridge, and filter cap, opertating at a higher frequency than 60 hz to save weight on the transformer
3. oh! carbon brushes, now I get it.
 
I get a lot of questions on how one could go about reducing/eliminating energy cost/dependance and since I'm doing generators 24/7 right now- its at the forefront of my mind. ( there aint no power grid in the mountains of Afghanistan to tap into- everything is run by generators)

First, unless one wants to live like a pioneer- there is no way to get away from electric power. Its 'doable" ( obviously) but probably not "desirable" but thats an individual choice.

Forget this "cheap" crap- no such thing exists. Its really a case of "cost to benefit" over time.

You have to consider the initial investment/maintenance/replacement of components at the end of their service life/ risk over cost of not doing it over a period of time ( say about 20 years)

So, if you want the "full Monty"- heres an outline of the proper way to do it.

IMPORTANT SAFETY NOTICE- this is simply an informational guide, if anyone wants to do this, FIRST go to a local EE and LICENSED electrician and have your individual situation evaluated for load factors, code compliance etc. Electricity WILL kill you and or damage/burn everything to the ground. Dont be a fool- this type of project is NOT for an untrained person.

I personally dont recommend DC because its too equipment/labor intensive for the average person as well as it has too many limitations but for those who want to try it- it works


Start at the beginning

1) what is the anticipated need?

In the US ( other countries will vary so this doesnt apply to them)- the average house is wired for a 200 amp service @ 220 VAC on the line side.

Thats 44,000 watts available ( W= V*A). Thats considering peak loads and estimated on the high side[ and what they want to set your bill rate at] The power companies do that so they can know how much power they have to generate.

In reality, the average house uses less than 50% of that on average

( I have an industrial 30kw generator for my farm as a back up and during hurricanes and ice storms I have never overloaded mine but I took a junker and rebuilt it)

The average home can live with a 15kw generator. ( you may have to do some load planning but thats OK)

You will need a load survey to see what your requirements are and size the power plant accordingly.

2) The alternative power plant

First, lets define a few terms. The word "generator" has a different meaning in different circumstances.

Even tho the terms are used interchangeable- they are not

A GENERATOR generates DC current

An ALTERNATOR generates AC

The PRIME MOVER is the device that TURNS the alternator. ( be it an engine, water wheel, fan blades etc)

I say that because I get calls a lot from people who damaged stuff because they have a portable welder or other device with a GENERATOR on it and they plugged it into their house and almost blew up everything.

( important safety note- READ the specs and dataplate- if it doesnt specifically state AC current- dont use it)

If you purchase one- make sure your generator has an ALTERNATOR on it. Ask and make sure it is TRUE AC current. ( read the fine print) ( some people, ignorantly or on purpose try to pass off rippled DC as AC current)

Outlets like Home Depot/Lowes etc sell home generators but like everything else- theres a catch ( read that fine print)

Those are BACK UP power. They are NOT designed for continuous duty ( as in replacement power running 24/7/365 with constant peaks and surges)

The difference is in the engine ( prime mover), winding size and insulation, bearings and service factor. Those home units have a service life ( before you just throw them away- they are not worth overhauling) of about 2000 hours. ( a 30 day month is 720 hrs so do the math)

I say that because I know some farmers who tried to alter the laws of physics and run their houses off of them because they could get fuel cheaper and it didnt work.

So, make sure your ALTERNATOR has a service factor of 1.5 or greater and is rated for continuous duty. ( plan on spending about 20k US to get an alternator, transfer switch and all the controls)

Sounds like a lot but over 20 yrs and factoring other risks as well as possibly multiple houses- its not.

The Prime Mover.

Something has to turn that alternator at a constant speed and torque. ( the critical factor is the torque because as demand increases, the magnetic field increases and makes the alternator harder to turn)

Forget an engine- for the long haul- it just doesnt work.

The prime mover is the big problem because of the RPM/torque requirements, the "homeowner" is basically limited to either air or water.

If you dont a river with running water close by ( thats assuming local codes/laws would allow it) thats not an option.

We are now back to air ( windmill)

Sounds good but there are considerations and complications.

The "windmill" as seen on TV is a combination of the generator/alternator- the prime mover ( blades) and a transmission. ( just like your car, you have to have torque, constant speed and braking/freewheeling capability)

To properly size the windmill ( no such thing as 1 size fits all) you need a survey of what height you have non turbulent wind as well as the average speed. ( that tells you the size blades, their pitch and how tall the tower)

Heres the downside- there will be times of not much wind ( unless you have a 300' tower- the funny thing is that if you had a few mil to build that monster- your power bill wouldnt be a big concern in the first place so you would just buy a yacht and go sailing and reduce your power bill by not being home)

So, you are back to a storage bank with regulator and inverter. ( more cost)

In short- for the average homeowner- the investment/benefit ratio isnt worth it.

However, depending on remoteness of location or business considerations ( like my case on a farm where a few days without power can cost money in lost product)- it may be worth it due to the risk alone.

Dont fall for the scams- it aint free, you cant change the laws of physics and it requires planning and discipline
 
[pedant mode]

Windmills are devices that use the wind for mechanical purposes.
Wind turbines are devices that use the wind to generate electricity.

[/pedant mode]
 
Before the New Deal and the Rural Electrification Administration, wind power systems were popular for rural dwellers who were out of reach of utility power lines. These systems typically used a DC generator and lead-acid batteries for storage. The de facto standard was 32VDC nominal.

This created a market, which electric-appliance manufacturers did serve, for devices rated to operate from 32VDC power. You could get 32V light bulbs, small kitchen appliances, e.g., mixers, and other useful things that you could plug into your 32V system.

Gadgets requiring higher DC voltages at low power, e.g., a vacuum tube radio receiver, could operate from 32VDC using a vibrator power supply to provide a few hundred volts for the plate supply while the tube heaters ran (usually in series) directly off the raw 32V. (A vibrator supply is a kind of electromechanical DC-DC converter in which an electromechanical buzzer chops your DC supply into an AC square wave which can then be stepped up by a transformer and then rectified and filtered into HVDC. Vibrator supplies were very common in tube car radios, which had to work from a 6VDC or 12VDC source.)

Nowadays virtually every farm in the country is within reach of commercial electric power service, so the low voltage DC appliance market has gone the way of the rubber buggy bumper market and anyone who wants "off-the-grid" electricity is pretty well stuck with having to produce 120VAC 60 Hz sine wave power.

If you want to do such an installation in your home, hiring a licensed EE to draw up the plans and a licensed contractor to do the installation isn't just a very sensible idea, it may well be required by your local building code authorities before a permit can be issued.
 
ktesibios said:
Gadgets requiring higher DC voltages at low power, e.g., a vacuum tube radio receiver, could operate from 32VDC using a vibrator power supply to provide a few hundred volts for the plate supply while the tube heaters ran (usually in series) directly off the raw 32V.
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Let's not forget the "dynamotor". Motor-generator set.
Anyone know what happened to the proposed "56 volt standard" for car electrical systems...to save copper on wiring?
 
I believe it's a 36V standard, and there's the usual chicken-or-egg problems.
 
Olowkow said:
Ok. I am an electronics engineer.
A "transformer" is a device that converts AC of one voltage to AC of a higher or lower voltage. It consists of a pair of isolated windings on a core of iron plates, or a toroid made of powdered iron.
There is no such thing as a AC to DC transformer. That would be called a "rectifier".
To "step down" DC you would either use a voltage divider (wastes power as heat) or you would have to convert DC to AC then back to DC again at a lower voltage. These devices are quite common these days. Called DC to DC converter. "Transformator" is not a word that I understand. I am still wondering what a "carbon motor" is.:)
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Sigh.Cought on terminology again...
And sorry for "Transformator",I have accidently used czech word...
Transformator = transformer.
As for 'AC-DC Transformer' I'd say it is imprecise term used by folks to describe both stages. (AC transform then rectify it)

(And fortunately I know usually what those things are... ;) )
 
There is a great deal of misinformation in the above posts.

In evaluating the veracity of claims made by the people that want to either sell you information as to how you can get "free energy" or sell you machinery to do it, the operative word is POWER. While you certainly CAN get free power from solar, wind, hydro (if you've got a river next to you), the MAIN problem is that you can't get much POWER from any device that you might be able to afford to buy or build. Trust me on this. I am a college graduate electrical engineer with over 50 years hands on experience with this subject. I am also very aware of what can be bought "on the cheap".

The discussions in this thread about "pulsed DC" versus AC sine wave are absurd in many respects. For MANY years, people on boats have had need for 120 v power.

Consider a boat (say about 65 feet ion length) to be analagous to a small house. It obviously needs considerable POWER. I recently outfitted such a boat with an electrical system that gives the owners a very practical, working system. While the 15kw generator (NOBODY calls a 15 kw genset an "alternator" even though it might be more accurate.) which is driven by a small deisel motor can run EVERYTHING on the yacht, the only time the genset runs is if the batteries are low due to a lack of wind or sunlight or if the owner wants to run the clothes dryer or air conditioner. As in most homes, the amount of POWER being consumed at any given time is quite well within the capabilities of an economical owner-installed renewable energy system that charges batteries.

The battery bank powers an inverter that can provide as much as 2500 watts of clean, pure, true AC sinewave power. The 120 volt AC is probably "cleaner" that what you have in your home right now. While a true sine wave inverter is more costly, there are also "modified sine wave" converters available. These are basically switching power supplys that change the 12 volt DC input to a 120 v RMS "square wave". This type of inverter works fine with many electronic devices, but does have some drawbacks. Do your homework and you can find out what they are.

The point is that in most homes, unless you regularly leave lights on in vacant rooms, TV's running with no one watching, etc. then you probably are not using a LOT of POWER at any given time. The BIG BIG BIG power consumers in any home are electric water heaters and clothes dryers. Even a modern, full size refrigerator uses VERY little POWER.

So, if you want to be pretty much "off the grid" it IS possible. You will probably have to have access to deisel fuel to OCCASSIONALLY run the generator for an hour or so, but solar and wind CAN keep a serious battery bank charged to the point that you will not need to draw from the power grid.

The cost of an installation that will do this is still around $ 20,000 - $ 30,000. Your deisel fuel costs will depend primarily on how many loads of laundry you must run through the clothes dryer every day (as opposed to a clothesline), and whether you heat your water with solar (EASILY DONE) or an electric water heater.
 
Before rural electrification, a lot of farms had windmills charging lead acid batteries. Of course, their use of electricity was much lower than most homes now, often just lights and a radio. They likely had a wood or coal stove for heating and cooking, an icebox (using actual ice) to keep the food cold, and maybe a gasoline powered ringer washing machine.
 
scottksmith said:
There is a great deal of misinformation in the above posts.

In evaluating the veracity of claims made by the people that want to either sell you information as to how you can get "free energy" or sell you machinery to do it, the operative word is POWER. ..........
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Thanks. Hope I was not among the "misinformation" giver outers. Good stuff, and welcome to the forum.
 
Toke said:
universal motor, the later having carbon brusches.
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Um, just to keep me up to speed, what sort of brushes are not carbon?

thse have been around forever havn't they? not sure there's any other kind...
 
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