Potential (voltage) and electromagnetism are two entirely different concepts

Uncayimmy

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This thread was originally in GS&P and died. I am bringing it back to life here so that experts can discuss it. This first post is a quote from VisionFromFeeling with the title being the subject of this thread.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=4600615#post4600615
Electrical charge
The center of an atom consists of the nucleus, which is made out of individual particles of protons and neutrons. Both protons and neutrons have roughly the same mass, but protons also have an electrical charge of +1 for each whereas neutrons have no charge. If you look at the Periodic table of the elements, which is a tabular depiction of all the different types of atoms, N, which is short for Nitrogen, has the number 7 which means that nitrogen is an atom that has seven protons in its nucleus. Therefore a nitrogen nucleus will have a total electrical charge of +7.

The atomic nuclei attract electrons. Electrons are other particles, that are much smaller than the proton or the neutron, but each electron carries an electrical charge of -1. Electrons and protons are attracted to each other in a similar way as the north pole of a magnet is attracted to the south pole of a magnet. There exists an attractive force between these opposite electrical charges that will actually pull these particles closer together. Electrons shimmer around the nucleus. If you add seven electrons to the nitrogen nucleus the positive and the negative charges cancel and you end up with an electrically neutral nitrogen atom. If you add extra electrons to nitrogen it becomes overall negatively charged. If you remove some electrons from nitrogen it becomes overall positively charged.

So every proton and every electron has an electric charge around it. When they come together into atoms, the electrons tend to move around the nucleus in a symmetrical way to cover the space surrounding the nucleus in a uniform electron distribution. All types of atoms attract electrons but some types of atoms are much stronger in that attractive force than are other. So when atoms connect together into molecules we start to see electric dipoles because of that, which are "uneven electron sharing". Oxygen for instance will keep the molecule's shared electrons more to itself and leaves carbon and hydrogen atoms with less electron density. Molecules of all kinds, with very different molecular dipoles form the material of the human body.

Charge separation and voltage
When opposite charges are separated, they want to get together. Ions are atoms that have either more, or fewer, electrons than protons and so ions have an overall positive or negative electrical charge. A battery contains two separate containers. One contains positively charged ions and the other contains negatively charged ions. When a battery is connected to an electronic circuit or appliance, electrons will move from the negative side and across the wire to the positive side, and of course the battery is dead when all of that electron flow has taken place.

A battery has a voltage. Voltage comes about due to charge separation. Many things in the body are run with voltage. For instance there are channels in cell walls that open once the inside of the cell has a large enough amount of sodium ions to create just the right voltage, or charge build-up.

Electrical fields
Electrical charges, stemming from the protons and the electrons, and therefore existing in the atoms, in the molecules, and in the human body, will always be surrounded by an electric field. An electric field is a force field and is simply the description of how the + and - electrical charges attract each other across space and how + and +, and - and -, repel one another. This electric force is always the strongest the closest to the actual charge and it gets weaker as you go further away from it. It is similar to the gravitational field of earth, which attracts objects toward itself, but you also know that the gravitational field gets weaker as you go further away from the earth. When you see dust clinging to the computer screen it is because of the electric force taking place in an electrical field, and charges in the screen and charges in the dust are attracted to each other! When charges are stationary, their electric field is stationary as well. But when charges move, their electrical fields move with them.

Magnetic fields
When an electrical field moves, it creates a magnetic field. There is always some magnetism even around stationary atoms because of the way electrons move about the atoms. Another form of magnetic field is created when individual electrons, or atoms, move from one place to another.

Electromagnetic fields
When charges move, their moving electric field can create a magnetic field, and a magnetic field can create an electric field. Electromagnetic radiation consists of both an electric and magnetic field interwoven and they take turns creating the other and vanishing.

Once electromagnetic radiation has been created it will move in a certain direction outward from its source and continues. Like the sun creating sunshine which is electromagnetic radiation and has traveled this far. Even if the sun were to be destroyed, the electromagnetic radiation it had created so far would continue even with its source no longer there. So, electromagnetic radiation is self-sustaining once it has left its source.

Electromagnetic radiation, is the same as light, and vibrates as it moves along. Depending on how fast it vibrates, its frequency, it will seem to be very different. Electromagnetic radiation that moves among the fastest is for example gamma radiation and X-rays. Radiation that is slower, is for instance the ultraviolet rays. Slower than that we have the visible light, through violet light, indigo, blue, green, yellow, orange and red light. Light that moves even slower than red is infrared light and that is the same as heat! Electromagnetic radiation can have any value of its frequency and this is a continuous range, rather than the individual steps I have given.

All electromagnetic radiation, regardless of how fast it moves, is essentially the same thing. But the human body can only see light whose frequency is within the visible range, even though it is plausible that light that moves faster or slower than that would actually "look like something" too if only our eyes were perfect! And also, infrared light is the only light that we can feel, and that our brain interprets as heat, even though all of light would essentially "feel like something" just as well. Human perception gives a narrow experience of light.

Light emissions from the human body
The human body emits a lot of infrared light, or heat. Our bodies take energy from the chemical bonds of food and as that energy is used it becomes converted into heat, and that is a form of electromagnetic radiation.

Every nerve signal in the body, whether to transmit to your brain what your hands are feeling, enable a muscle contraction, or the thoughts that you have, all involve charged particles in the body moving. And that creates electromagnetic emission. In and around your body is electromagnetism of many forms, and all the time.

Electromagnetic radiation that is emitted and released and begins to move out and away from its source such as your body, can't be expected to last forever. This light, as it bumps into atoms in the air, in walls, and in all the other things, gets bent and distorted, or even absorbed inside of atoms where it is picked up by electrons, its energy spent, and released out again with less energy than it came with and therefore a lower frequency. X-rays are dangerous because they have so much energy that the electrons that intended to pick up this radiation can actually become removed from the atoms because of that, making those atoms upset and looking for new electrons to replace them and stealing electrons from other atoms and in the process ripping molecules in the body apart. When X-rays are used in medical imaging, doctors and patients sometimes wear lead screens, because the X-rays are taken up by lead atoms and converted into harmless heat radiation!

Radio waves, that are used for transmission of radio channels, are electromagnetism as well and last quite well because they already have very low frequency, less so than heat, to be disturbed much.

The electromagnetism that your body creates comes from many functions in the body, from a muscle contraction, heartbeat, nerve signal, and your thoughts, are continuously emitted around you and radiate outward. They are not contained as a bundle of electromagnetic radiation that would somehow cluster and stay in the body as an electromagnetic aspect of yourself. If this were the essence of a human soul, it would rather seem that this soul radiates out from you and far from your body at all times. And if it were instead constantly re-created, once the body dies it no longer generates new electromagnetism in this way and what electromagnetism was there would probably end up scattered. I do not think that a human soul would consist of electromagnetism.

So, if there is a soul in the body, perhaps it would be made of something different than the electromagnetism that our bodies generate. As for the soul being composed of the voltage distribution pattern across the body, I somehow seriously doubt that as well.

Keep in mind that science is still in its youth, there are so many things that can not be accessed by the human consciousness or sensory perception, or even with the current most modern scientific instrumentation that can detect and interpret many of the things that we humans can not reach ourselves. It is only plausible to expect new and more discoveries of the world we live in, and with this we must remember to remain open-minded and to consider alternative ideas without immediate rejection simply due to the fact that they are not already part of what is known.
 
Sol Invictus responded with this:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4602586#post4602586
Some of that post is correct, but the title - "Potential (voltage) and electromagnetism are two entirely different concepts" - is totally wrong. Electric potential is an integral part of electromagnetism, and cannot be separated from it. It is not true that it always arises from charge separation, and it is also not true that there is some fundamental distinction between it and other EM phenomena.

For example, a non-constant electric potential gives rise to a non-zero magnetic field in every frame (except possibly one). Another example is EM radiation, in which the electric potential in some gauges oscillates (even though there is zero charge).
 
In a private exchange between myself and VisionFromFeeling I asked her about this thread because she never responded to Sol. This is her response (paraphrasing and actual quoting).

VFF disagreed saying, "They sure as hell are not the same thing! LOL LOL you guys suck. I was right after all. They are NOT the same thing. NOT NOT NOT."

She argues that electromagnetism can "exist as a self-sustaining propagation of an electrical and magnetic field. Voltage, although within it or perhaps part of its origin, is not the SAME AS electromagnetism."

She seems to be hung up thinking that Sol said voltage and electromagnetism are the "same thing" when it's pretty clear that Sol wrote, "Electric potential is an integral part of electromagnetism."

She went on to say that voltage not changing over time "does NOT have any magnetism" and that magnetism is the "other half" of electromagnetism because "voltage on its own is not the same thing as electromagnetism."

She concluded with, "Voltage and electromagnetism are NOT the same thing. I'm only in my second year of Optical Physics, but I'm sure of it. Voltage that is not changing over time has no magnetic field associated with it. Therefore pure voltage as is, is not sufficient to be called electromagnetism. A changing voltage can induce electromagnetism, but a stationary voltage does not."

She assures me that she will ask "real" physicists who have "physics jobs" and not "JREF physicists" about this, which is why I chose start this thread.
 
Electric fields are created by differences in voltage: the higher the voltage, the stronger will be the resultant field. Magnetic fields are created when electric current flows: the greater the current, the stronger the magnetic field. An electric field will exist even when there is no current flowing. If current does flow, the strength of the magnetic field will vary with power consumption but the electric field strength will be constant.
(Extract from Electromagnetic fields published by the WHO Regional Office for Europe in 1999 (Local authorities, health and environment briefing pamphlet series; 32).
 
Sort of a weird question. E&M and voltage have just the relationship Sol said.

The word "electromagnetism" is usually taken to mean "Maxwell's equations", which describe oscillating fields and time-varying-but-not-oscillating fields and static fields. Anywhere there's an electric field---static or otherwise---you can define a voltage; V is just an integral of E.

They are not synonyms. But voltage is not a subset of EM, nor is it something that comes up only in electrostatic problems.
 
Electric fields are created by differences in voltage: the higher the voltage, the stronger will be the resultant field
Thanks. I was going to say that the units for an electric field are Volts per unit meter. I don't see anything wrong with what Sol said. He basically just gave the standard physics spiel about voltage
 
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I was going to say that the units for an electric field are Volts per unit meter.

That's a convenient unit, but when constructing electromagnetism, one usually starts with Newtons/Coulomb. Volts are later defined as Joule/Coulomb, and so you end up with 1 Newton/Coulomb = 1 Joule/(Coulomb meter) = 1 Volt/meter. Sol is of course correct, but voltage is usually derived from the electric field, not the other way around.
 
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Well, she is also wrong about nerve conduction.

There is a layer of lipids that creates the cell membrance, in it are channels for ion transmission. When a signal travels in a neuron it is through the opening of these chanels and a wave of ions moving out of the cell. This creates a very small EM pulse. So it is a wave of biochemical polarization and osmotic pressure differential. It is not an electrical impulse like a phone wire uses.

However neurotransmission between cells that are not joined dendritically is through neurotransmitters across the post synaptic cleft.
 
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Voltage and electromagnetism are not "the same thing". Yes they are related, and I never argued that they'd not be related concepts, yet they are not the "same thing".

You can have voltage without electromagnetism. Thus they are not the same thing.

You can have a stationary system in which there is charge separation (such as in a charged capacitor that is set aside without any electricity running through the circuit) in which there will exist a voltage across the capacitor. If there is no current (no charge flow) running through the circuit, then there is no magnetism. And there is also no electromagnetism.

Thus they are not the same thing.

Voltage is charge separation. Electromagnetism is propagating electric and magnetic fields.
 
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Voltage and electromagnetism are not "the same thing".

True. A brick and a brick building are not the same thing either.

You can have a stationary system in which there is charge separation (such as in a charged capacitor that is set aside without any electricity running through the circuit) in which there will exist a voltage across the capacitor. If there is no current (no charge flow) running through the circuit, then there is no magnetism.

Electromagnetism is a subject which includes both magnetic and electric fields. The subject still exists regardless of the value of either the electric of magnetic field and any particular point. But you're still wrong, because the electric and magnetic fields are both part of a single electromagnetic field (which is a tensor quantity). If you change reference frames, the components of the electromagnetic field transform, and a field which has zero magnetic components in one frame will have nonzero magnetic components in another. In other words, your capacitor will in fact have a magnetic field in most reference frames.

Electromagnetism is propagating electric and magnetic fields.

No, actually, it isn't. Your confusion is apparently a misunderstanding of the definition of electromagnetism.
 
Voltage and electromagnetism are not "the same thing". Yes they are related, and I never argued that they'd not be related concepts, yet they are not the "same thing".
When you start off saying they are "two entirely different concepts" it's only fair to believe you mean they are not related.
 
This creates a very small EM pulse. So it is a wave of biochemical polarization and osmotic pressure differential. It is not an electrical impulse like a phone wire uses.
Don't say that because a pedantic ass will point out that an telephone wire uses em pulses. I am that pedantic ass. It does actually matter once your telephone lines string across the United States otherwise you can treat the phone wire as an electrical impulse/traditional ohms law.
 
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Ziggurat said:
your capacitor will in fact have a magnetic field in most reference frames.
The question is: are voltage and electromagnetism the same thing? So explain to me how a stationary charged capacitor, which does contain voltage due to charge separation, and is not connected to a flowing circuit hence there is no induced magnetic field due to a changing electrical field since the electrical field is stationary since the charges remain stationary, how is electromagnetism occurring at the capacitor? Just explain that.

Because I still believe voltage and electromagnetism are not the same thing. Related, within the subject of electromagnetism, but not the same thing.

UncaYimmy said:
When you start off saying they are "two entirely different concepts" it's only fair to believe you mean they are not related.
No it ain't. If I say "they are two different concepts" I mean they are not the same concepts, they are not the same things. To not be related is a vastly different thing, had I meant that they are not related I would have said "they have got nothing to do with each other".
 
The question is: are voltage and electromagnetism the same thing? So explain to me how a stationary charged capacitor, which does contain voltage due to charge separation, and is not connected to a flowing circuit hence there is no induced magnetic field due to a changing electrical field since the electrical field is stationary since the charges remain stationary, how is electromagnetism occurring at the capacitor? Just explain that.

Ofcourse, if you look at a voltage and you look at "electromagnetism" you are not looking at the same thing. That is because on is an "object" and one is a "conglomerate". Electromagnetism consists of everything that has to do with electric fields and charges and magentic fields and charges (where the latter only appear as dipoles). The whole thing here is like saying ducks and birds are not the same thing, well DUH!!

What you forget, unfortunately, is that your voltage (which can be created by a charge separation, but also induced by a time varying magnetic field) is totally described by electromagnetic theory.

If you start off with a non sensical claim, then don't be surprised that you get "attacked" for making such a claim.

This whole discussion is ludicrous.
 
tusenfem said:
Ofcourse, if you look at a voltage and you look at "electromagnetism" you are not looking at the same thing.
Case closed, then. I did not bring up this discussion, UncaYimmy did, since he is trying to discredit me by attacking my professional life which has got nothing to do with my paranormal claim.

Of course I know that voltage is covered within the subject of electromagnetism, but, voltage and electromagnetism are not the same thing. I was right. Case closed.
 
Case closed, then. I did not bring up this discussion, UncaYimmy did, since he is trying to discredit me by attacking my professional life which has got nothing to do with my paranormal claim.

Of course I know that voltage is covered within the subject of electromagnetism, but, voltage and electromagnetism are not the same thing. I was right. Case closed.
The problem is that all Sol said was that the phenomeon are related. The fact is that he is right. The fact is that for some strange reason you couldn't comprehend that fact.
 
Case closed, then. I did not bring up this discussion, UncaYimmy did, since he is trying to discredit me by attacking my professional life which has got nothing to do with my paranormal claim.
Correction. You joined a discussion that had nothing to do with your discredited paranormal claim and posted a scientific lecture. Sol corrected you. You never responded. I asked you about it. You said Sol was wrong but that you would not respond here, so I did. Now you're here. Did you ask Dr. Carlson? What did he say?

Of course I know that voltage is covered within the subject of electromagnetism, but, voltage and electromagnetism are not the same thing. I was right. Case closed.
You're changing things around. Sol said, "Electric potential is an integral part of electromagnetism, and cannot be separated from it. It is not true that it always arises from charge separation, and it is also not true that there is some fundamental distinction between it and other EM phenomena."

Your response upon reading that was to say, ""They sure as hell are not the same thing! LOL LOL you guys suck. I was right after all. They are NOT the same thing. NOT NOT NOT."

Do you still believe that?

You continued on to refute that voltage is an "integral part of electromagnetism" by saying, "voltage on its own is not the same thing as electromagnetism." When you say "voltage on its own" you are separating it from electromagnetism, which Sol says you cannot do.

Nowhere did Sol or anyone else say that voltage and electromagnetism were the "same thing" - an imprecise phrase you put into the discussion. Again, look at what Sol said and tell us if he is right or wrong:
"Electric potential is an integral part of electromagnetism, and cannot be separated from it. It is not true that it always arises from charge separation, and it is also not true that there is some fundamental distinction between it and other EM phenomena."
 
:faint:
technoextreme said:
The problem is that all Sol said was that the phenomeon are related. The fact is that he is right. The fact is that for some strange reason you couldn't comprehend that fact.
OF COURSE they are related concepts. Yet, they are not THE SAME THING! He is right to say that they are related. I am right to say that they are not the same thing. UncaYimmy is wrong in trying to stir up some discussion when there is nothing to talk about!

UncaYimmy said:
Did you ask Dr. Carlson? What did he say?
He wasn't at the meeting. I can ask Physicists and Electrical Engineers, since this little 'dispute' going on is obviously of great interest to you.
UncaYimmy said:
You're changing things around. Sol said, "Electric potential is an integral part of electromagnetism, and cannot be separated from it. It is not true that it always arises from charge separation, and it is also not true that there is some fundamental distinction between it and other EM phenomena."
Yes, but voltage and electromagnetism are not the same thing. Related, yes, but not the same thing.

UncaYimmy said:
Your response upon reading that was to say, ""They sure as hell are not the same thing! LOL LOL you guys suck. I was right after all. They are NOT the same thing. NOT NOT NOT."
No, my response to reading you say to me that voltage and electromagnetism would be the same thing, was this. And I said this in a private conversation at Skype and asked you not to post what I said here, so that I could come and reply to your nonsense here myself. But you obviously chose to disregard what I said.

And I said this after you told me that there was some fundamental error that I had posted regarding science, so that caught my attention and I was eager to find out what that was. When you then posted this nonsense I thought it was funny since I was right after all. At least, no one has proven me wrong yet. Voltage and electromagnetism are not the same thing.

UncaYimmy said:
Do you still believe that?
Yes. I still believe that voltage and electromagnetism are not "the same thing".
UncaYimmy said:
You continued on to refute that voltage is an "integral part of electromagnetism" by saying, "voltage on its own is not the same thing as electromagnetism." When you say "voltage on its own" you are separating it from electromagnetism, which Sol says you cannot do.
If you have a charged capacitor it has voltage between the capacitor plates. If you set the charged capacitor aside and there is no electric current going through the circuit or the capacitor then there is no electromagnetism, as in electromagnetic fields. There is an electric field, but not an electromagnetic field. Voltage and electromagnetism are not "the same thing". I have never separated voltage from the vast subject of electromagnetism. I said that voltage and electromagnetism are not "the same thing".
UncaYimmy said:
Nowhere did Sol or anyone else say that voltage and electromagnetism were the "same thing"
Oh? Then it was what you said to me, and what I responded to.
UncaYimmy said:
- an imprecise phrase you put into the discussion. Again, look at what Sol said and tell us if he is right or wrong:
No Honey, you told me that I had said that voltage and electromagnetism are not the same thing. You told me. You invented the phrase, and I was simply responding to it.
UncaYimmy said:
"Electric potential is an integral part of electromagnetism, and cannot be separated from it. It is not true that it always arises from charge separation, and it is also not true that there is some fundamental distinction between it and other EM phenomena."
Hm, yea, but they are still not the same. You can have voltage without electromagnetism. You can have voltage in a situation where there is no magnetism and no electromagnetic fields or waves.

VisionFromFeeling said:
You can have voltage without electromagnetism.
Tim Thompson said:
Unless you have figured out a way to have a voltage in the absence of any electric charges, this is clearly quite impossible. After all, they don't call it electromagnetism for nothing.
How did you get what you said, from what I said? I already said that charge separation leads to voltage. Now you are saying that I supposedly said that we have voltage in the absence of electric charges? What's with you guys? :confused: Here's what I said:
VisionFromFeeling said:
You can have voltage without electromagnetism. Thus they are not the same thing.

You can have a stationary system in which there is charge separation (such as in a charged capacitor that is set aside without any electricity running through the circuit) in which there will exist a voltage across the capacitor. If there is no current (no charge flow) running through the circuit, then there is no magnetism. And there is also no electromagnetism.
Now why exactly are you saying that I supposedly said there would be voltage without charge? What's with you guys? :confused:
 
Voltage and electromagnetism are not the same thing. UncaYimmy contacted me and said that I had made a great error in what I had said about science. I was very eager to find out what that was and I found out that I had not made an error after all. Now there's a whole thread in which UncaYimmy is trying to stir up something when there is nothing to discuss.

Since voltage and electromagnetism are not the same thing. Related, yes, but not the same thing.
 

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