Give autodidacts and independent learners a chance

[lightfire22000]

"Without institutional dependency or even sovereignty"? What on earth does that mean?

The reason that the Chinese are doing so well in terms of education is because they have something like 100 state-run colleges and universities, graduating something like six million people per year. They're creating so many college graduates that most of them fail to find places in Chinese graduate schools and instead try to find places abroad (which is why something like 25% of US graduate students are Chinese citizens).

That's hardly a sign of "willingness to learn on their own." It's a well-functioning state-run educational system.

It's only well-functioning because those professors and teachers have to compete with other test prep services, which are widespread in China. Here, the professors have a sanctioned monopoly. This allows them to suck the money out of the American people. If the system revolved around standards related to work, they would have to change their method of instruction.

 

[lightfire22000]

Lightfire22000,

Your criticism of schoolteacher certification is spot-on. The preparation is homogenized and process-oriented. Persons from outside this system have difficulty obtaining teaching certification, but that is partially as it should be. Many school systems are not primarily in the business of delivering content. Thus, school teachers generally spend lots of time on discipline, individualized educational plans, parent conferences, repairing the Ritalin fog machine, meetings, pep rallys for the sports teams, and so on, but not so much on content. Many school systems do have teachers with very good content creds, but those tend to get shunted to AP classes.

In some areas there is a canon of knowledge that is needed in order to spend the first day on the job. A Physician's Assistant is not a junior Physician but allied. It is not reasonable to expect a PA to be able to beome a Physician through OJT. That rather Draconian memorization/lack of sleep/intense grilling/cut-throat competition that Physicians go through is not duplicated in the PA curriculum. Some may say that sort of preparation is outdated or even bad, but it produces people who can roll out of an on-call cot at a dead run when they hear a "Code Blue" at 3:15 am and begin treatment of the patient within 45 seconds of the code. Even for senior Physicians who are required to do that, it produces surgeons who are able, while repairing a seemingly minor hernia to deal with the aneurism that suddenly blows.

If the schools aren't geared towards teaching content, they shouldn't exist at all.

PA's could put themselves through that rather Draconian memorization/lack of sleep/intense grilling/cut-throat competition to become Physicians. If they wanted to do so, they should not be barred from it. Furthermore, they are probably more qualified to become Physicians than a complete layman and laws should respect that. The market certainly would.

 

[drkitten]

Uorw

The FDA has crucially missed regulation in the past.

Of course it has. No one has claimed the FDA is perfect. Merely that it's substantially better than the market-based (lack of) regulation that existed prior to the establishment of the FDA. In fact, the FDA was established precisely because the market was demonstrably incapable of regulating itself, even to the extent that products on the market were likely to be safe and effective.

There's a reason the term "snake oil salesman" was coined.

The market is a better regulator than government

This is simply untrue. It can be shown to be historically untrue when you look at the age of patent medicines and snake oil that existed before the FDA, and it can also be seen in the supplements market that runs alongside the FDA's regulation but are (by law) not subject to it.

Quality control issues are omnipresent, and outright false advertising is more common than not. From the LA Times:

Meanwhile, researchers and regulators have warned for years that many dietary supplements contain ingredients -- and contaminants -- not listed on labels, and dosages weaker or stronger than those advertised. A November 2005 report by New York-based ConsumerLab for instance, found that, of 11 weight-loss dietary supplements it tested, only six contained the ingredients in the strength advertised on their labels. One of those -- a product whose principal ingredient is hydroxycitric acid -- was found to be contaminated with five times the lead allowed by the state of California without a warning label.

Finally, supplement makers also respond to consumers' shifting whims by changing their formulations frequently. This week, safflower oil extract -- a source of polyunsaturated fat -- may be in; next week it might be replaced with chitosan, a lipid-absorbing powder derived from crustaceans.

For researchers or investigators, the shifting ingredients can be a serious obstacle to distinguishing between a product that's safe and a product that's a waste of money or -- worse -- a danger to consumers.

So, no, the market is NOT a better regulator than the FDA, unless you're suggesting that this cultural change has somehow happened since May 25.

 

[drkitten]

It's only well-functioning because those professors and teachers have to compete with other test prep services, which are widespread in China. Here, the professors have a sanctioned monopoly. This allows them to suck the money out of the American people. If the system revolved around standards related to work, they would have to change their method of instruction.

Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong.

As usual.

 

[Holler Hoojer]

If the schools aren't geared towards teaching content, they shouldn't exist at all.

But, they do exist. We might work toward correcting that, but we can hardly walk away from the whole idea of public education.

As you could see in the next post I wrote, I agree with some of your sentiments, but we do have to go carefully with the professions, I think. I don't really see anything wrong, for example, with the present system of nursing education. There are a variety of different paths to the RN. Some are more rigorous, some are more available. But, I would never want an RN who simply showed up and took a test, even a test that had a 3 day practicum. There is a set of ethics and values for any profession and those are learned through association with peers and mentors and, in my opinion, need to be present before the first day on the job.

Why such a dislike of traditional credentialling methods? Several of us have mentioned alternative types of education for some fields; are you not interested in any type of education except self-learning?

 

[drkitten]

If the schools aren't geared towards teaching content, they shouldn't exist at all.

Not at all. There's a lot of education that isn't content; you can't learn praxis from books.

PA's could put themselves through that rather Draconian memorization/lack of sleep/intense grilling/cut-throat competition to become Physicians.

No, they couldn't. What an asinine comment. How can you push YOURSELF further than you want to go? For that matter, with whom are you competing?

Furthermore, they are probably more qualified to become Physicians than a complete layman and laws should respect that.

They are indeed, which is why they have an advantage if they should choose to apply to medical school -- and the laws most certainly respect that.

 

[Holler Hoojer]

Here, the professors have a sanctioned monopoly. .

Yes, and the plumbers and the flight attendants and the police and the truck drivers and massage therapists and EMS crew and... Everybody tries to control their profession or trade, both for economic reasons and quality. Why is that bad?

 

[lightfire22000]

Yes, and the plumbers and the flight attendants and the police and the truck drivers and massage therapists and EMS crew and... Everybody tries to control their profession or trade, both for economic reasons and quality. Why is that bad?

It slows innovation. Sometimes it doesn't slow it down by much, but other times it slows it down a lot. Keep in mind that the licensing agencies would still exist in a free market system. However, they wouldn't be legally binding. You would never have to hire someone that didn't have a certain license. You simply would be legally allowed to do so. Also, there'd be more than one licensing agency to prevent frauds.

 

[drkitten]

Further to previous. Check out http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31190909 for another recent example of how wonderful the free market is at regulating itself in the absence of the firm hand of the FDA.

 

[lightfire22000]

They are indeed, which is why they have an advantage if they should choose to apply to medical school -- and the laws most certainly respect that.

In the past this was true. Recently, there has been a developing backlash against people who apply to PA programs who consider the prospect of later applying to Medical School. There are lobbies for screening programs and such that want to phase out PA's that want to become M.D.s This is over the line in my opinion.

No, they couldn't. What an asinine comment. How can you push YOURSELF further than you want to go? For that matter, with whom are you competing?

They could want to go that far! They'd be competing with other medical students with test scores, lab results, and such. In fact, there are a couple of present systems in place such as SMPs that recognize this to a degree.

 

[drkitten]

It slows innovation.

Which is good, when you consider that some proposed innovations are really bad idea.

Keep in mind that the licensing agencies would still exist in a free market system.

The difference is, they wouldn't be effective.

We know how effective voluntary licensing and quality control has been in the pharmaceutical industry....

 

[drkitten]

In the past this was true. Recently, there is a developing backlash against people who apply to PA programs who consider the prospect of later applying to Medical School.

I see. So now all of a sudden you want to remove the ability of "the market" to decide for itself who gets to become doctors, by eliminating the ability of medical schools to select for themselves?

Apparently public sentiment is great as a guide to truth when it leads to more openness, but not otherwise.

One more example of how your position is irrational, I guess. I would think you would love it when "the market" decided not to provide training to a certain group of otherwise qualified people, because (as you said in another thread) "the market is never wrong."

 

[lightfire22000]

The backlash isn't from the general public. The backlash is from other PAs. Medical Schools should have absolute autonomy when it comes to whom they admit. However, they shouldn't set up barriers for other medical schools as far as accreditation is concerned.

 

[realpaladin]

It slows innovation. Sometimes it doesn't slow it down by much, but other times it slows it down a lot.

Prove it!

Here in India the system is as follows; you can do pretty much as you like and if you want a government certificate you have to pass their tests (or bribe a few people), but otherwise you can still do as you please.

I am not living in the worlds most innovative country...

 

[Toke]

So with free marked, you could instead of hiring an electrician with an oldfasioned goverment approved certificate, try one of the autodidact ones* and get some innovative household wiring.

*Who would of course have arranged individual approval from the fireinsurance company.

 

[drkitten]

The backlash isn't from the general public. The backlash is from other PAs.

From a medical school's perspective, the general public includes PA's; lobbying by PA's is equivalent to any other organized group applying pressure to a firm in the marketplace.

 

[lightfire22000]

So with free marked, you could instead of hiring an electrician with an oldfasioned goverment approved certificate, try one of the autodidact ones* and get some innovative household wiring.

*Who would of course have arranged individual approval from the fireinsurance company.

Good question,
Those certificates would still exist. If you want to hire one without those certificates, be my guest. Just pay for any property damage that you cause.
The cream would rise to the top naturally. It always has before. When it rises to the top frequently, we ultimately call it "government." The training programs that the electricains as well as their test scores, which would test practice as well as written work, would amply suffice as indicators of performance.

 

[lightfire22000]

From a medical school's perspective, the general public includes PA's; lobbying by PA's is equivalent to any other organized group applying pressure to a firm in the marketplace.

Oh, I wasn't clear enough. The PAs aren't lobbying medical schools to block other PAs from entrance. They are lobbying PA programs to block people that are considering becoming doctors eventually, from entering PA programs.

 

[realpaladin]

The training programs that the electricains as well as their test scores, which would test practice as well as written work, would amply suffice as indicators of performance.

No they would not. It would indicate the ability and willingness to work hard for a test. It says zilch about what they would do in real practice.

 

[Toke]

Good question,
Those certificates would still exist. If you want to hire one without those certificates, be my guest. Just pay for any property damage that you cause.

Who would pay?
You?
The "craftsman"?
The insurance company?
What happens if you sell the house and the buyer discover the "work" done, who will set the craftmanship standards for arbitration.

The cream would rise to the top naturally. It always has before. When it rises to the top frequently, we ultimately call it "government." The training programs that the electricains as well as their test scores, which would test practice as well as written work, would amply suffice as indicators of performance.

Not sure what this means.
That best practice end up being adobted by goverment?
That is what is being done now.


My aunts upstairs bathroom shower leak into the kichen.
The guy installing it went bankrupt before fixing it.

That is with licencing, what do you think will happen without?