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Ironies in Conspiracy Theories

oldmajor

New Blood
Joined
May 22, 2008
Messages
19
Like a lot of people on here, I have a certain fascination with conspiracy theories even when I think they're completely nutty. Alex Jones et al can try to posture as 'patriots' all they want but ultimately they're just entertainers - witness the fact that it's more important to make DVDs about all these global crises than actually doing the much more difficult work to try to change them. And that's fine because there is something oddly entertaining about a nutcase with a bullhorn.

But it's this 'rebel' posturing that kind of bothers me. A conspiracy theory allows one to assume the role of the noble dissident bravely striking a blow against the empire, fighting the good fight while everyone else either 'just doesn't get it' or are 'in on it' themselves. The sheep. And the scarier the theory, the better - a 9/11 'truth' youtube video would not be complete without ominous music and solemn narration and even rumors that the evildoers actually - my god! - worship SATAN! So clearly a big part of the conspiracy agenda is to promote fear.

The rub here is that a culture of baseless rumors and fear of an all powerful authority presence is exactly the sort of environment required to facilitate the facistic sort of rule they're warning us about.

For example a conspiracy theory would have us believe that the CIA was responsible in the JFK assassination. They planned the whole thing, executed it perfectly, and then kept it covered in the face of forty+ years of unprecedented investigation. That's pretty frightening and more importantly it's paralyzing. What would be the point of voting or running for office or even voicing an opinion if all that were true? The CIA's got the whole on thing on lock so why bother? On the hand, we can look at the CIA as - via Bugliosi - "men who were committed and passionate enough to not be above whatever it took - including assassination of foreign leaders, even breaking bread with organized crime - to carry out their mission 'in the national interest.'" Now this is by no means a defense of the CIA and in fact my position is quite the opposite. I have serious concerns about some of things that are carried out in the name of 'national defense,' both in terms of their geopolitical effects as well as with my own morals of right and wrong. But how are we to address real concerns when there's an ever present chorus of 'truthers' who have the political depth of a GI JOE cartoon? What's a little military coup in Latin America compared to a Global Satanic Plan For World Domination(tm)?

So I submit that not only can these conspiracies impede real investigation and oversight, but they also have a corrosive effect on the culture. The Patriot Act said that THEY are watching every book you take out at the library and yet even though I know that's just a baseless rumor, why do I feel a slight pang of panic when I take Philip Roth's "The Plot Against America" to the front desk? Why do we still drive the speed limit even on a lonely road even when we're fairly certain there are no cops around? Because fear and the possibility that our fears are real is what often controls our behavior. That's not to say that it's always malevolent, but it is the basis of law and authority.

I might be wrong on some of this & I'm curious to know what others think about it but I do know that removing the whole 'rebel' cache from the arsenal of the conspiracy theorist pretty much takes all the fun out of it for them.
 
I find it ironic that (as you alluded to) a lot of the basis for NWO conspiracies is the belief that these people worship Satan (or Moloch) and have sex with male prostitutes at Bohemian Grove (among other supposedly "deviant" acts), yet AJ and his minions are supposed libertarians. In a true, libertarian world would I not be free to worship and have sex with whoever and whatever I want? What does someone's religious and sexual preferences have to do with their motivations towards the rest of society? If AJ were in charge of things (god forbid...) I bet the first thing he would do would be to round up the gays and the pagans.

I also find it ironic that when Luke or any other WAC job gets arrested for accosting someone at an NWO/Illuminati/Bilderberg type event the Infowars universe goes into a tizzy, yet when two REAL journalists are arrested and imprisoned in North Korea for covering the sex trade the general tone over there is "stupid b*****s shouldn't have been where they weren't wanted. Serves 'em right."
 
<snip>

The rub here is that a culture of baseless rumors and fear of an all powerful authority presence is exactly the sort of environment required to facilitate the facistic sort of rule they're warning us about.

For example a conspiracy theory would have us believe that the CIA was responsible in the JFK assassination. They planned the whole thing, executed it perfectly, and then kept it covered in the face of forty+ years of unprecedented investigation. That's pretty frightening and more importantly it's paralyzing. What would be the point of voting or running for office or even voicing an opinion if all that were true? The CIA's got the whole on thing on lock so why bother?

<snip>.

That's a convenient position for the CIA to be in. TheyTM don't even have to suffer the guilt of executing evil conspiracies anymore. TheyTM can just discretely leak fabricated self-incrimination for any awful world tragedy theyTM choose and accomplish the same goal of controlling the population by paralyzing them with fear of the CIA.

....nah. I'm sure truthers would catch on and you would end up hearing them argue that the CIA are really the good guys just pretending to be part of the evil NWO...

right before their heads asplode.
 
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I find it ironic that (as you alluded to) a lot of the basis for NWO conspiracies is the belief that these people worship Satan (or Moloch) and have sex with male prostitutes at Bohemian Grove (among other supposedly "deviant" acts), yet AJ and his minions are supposed libertarians. In a true, libertarian world would I not be free to worship and have sex with whoever and whatever I want? What does someone's religious and sexual preferences have to do with their motivations towards the rest of society? If AJ were in charge of things (god forbid...) I bet the first thing he would do would be to round up the gays and the pagans.

Not to mention the fact that he's out there screaming into a bullhorn for the good of all humanity...with the one possible exception of Mexican immigrants because we can't have that and then maybe Canadians too because the North American Union is an evil NWO plot, and while we're at it let's throw in everyone in the mainstream media and anyone who works for a corporation. And the French too. But other than that he's fighting for all humanity.
 
Alex Jones was one of my first exposures to the paranoid. And paranoid...whooaaa. He is very hard to miss. Usually, someone who has something to fear is a little more...discreet? This was the first clue I got that Alex Jones wasn't all he appeared. The next clue was a YouTube video. Jones claimed the military was preparing to take over American cities and towns for martial law. Well, there were some...problems.

For one thing, a woman on her porch was saying something silently (Jone's sound guy didn't pick it up.) and a kid's bike could be seen. And what the hello was Jones doing following solders around with a camera (and a sound crew) during a YouTube video in the middle of the day, then the night while they do training exercises (video's gone).

If something truly dastardly was being prepped...wouldn't an annoying truth fly be swatted?

The other YouTube watchers felt the "wrong". One noted the town was between two military bases. Another noted that urban combat training would properly be done some place safe...such as a friendly American city?

The video's gone.
 
Alex Jones was one of my first exposures to the paranoid. And paranoid...whooaaa. He is very hard to miss. Usually, someone who has something to fear is a little more...discreet? This was the first clue I got that Alex Jones wasn't all he appeared. The next clue was a YouTube video. Jones claimed the military was preparing to take over American cities and towns for martial law. Well, there were some...problems.

For one thing, a woman on her porch was saying something silently (Jone's sound guy didn't pick it up.) and a kid's bike could be seen. And what the hello was Jones doing following solders around with a camera (and a sound crew) during a YouTube video in the middle of the day, then the night while they do training exercises (video's gone).

If something truly dastardly was being prepped...wouldn't an annoying truth fly be swatted?

The other YouTube watchers felt the "wrong". One noted the town was between two military bases. Another noted that urban combat training would properly be done some place safe...such as a friendly American city?

The video's gone.
That does seem a little ironic. Float a paranoid idea. If it catches on, fine. If it becomes an embarrassment, disappear it.

I've sometimes wondered if twoofer's paranoia was based on projection: I should be afraid of this or that because that's what I'd do, if I could.
 
I've sometimes wondered if twoofer's paranoia was based on projection: I should be afraid of this or that because that's what I'd do, if I could.


A lot of confirming evidence for that comes from looking into what they actually do, when they can. Such as how dissenting opinions are treated on 9/11 truth forums; or more specifically, how scientific arguments are treated when they fail to support the "correct" politics.

It's pretty clear that many Truthers have distorted notions of how ordinary people balance morals with self-interest when they make decisions. Accusations that police and firefighters would stay silent about multiple murders to "save their pensions" are pretty routine. ChristopherA once claimed that any brain surgeon -- not some hypothetical evil brain surgeon, but any one -- would cover up a superior alternative treatment for brain dysfunctions currently treated with surgery, because it would adversely affect the surgeon's own livelihood. He made this claim as a supporting example for some other accusation, as if the claim were so obviously true as to go without saying.

Whether that is a projection of how they themselves would make decisions, or based on the behavior they observe in the people close to them, is not clear. If it's the latter, then I can only pity them and advise them to find some less-psychopathic people to hang out with. But as I pointed out before, evidence of how they treat others when given the chance to, more strongly suggests the former.

Respectfully,
Myriad

ETA: By the way, oldmajor, welcome to the forum! Explosions from overloaded irony meters are actually a familiar hazard for those who engage in discussion with 9/11 conspiracy theory proponents here. So much so, that we have a smiley for it:

:i:

:id:
 
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Why do we still drive the speed limit even on a lonely road even when we're fairly certain there are no cops around? Because fear and the possibility that our fears are real is what often controls our behavior. That's not to say that it's always malevolent, but it is the basis of law and authority.

Yes and no. On the one hand, laws and enforced by, well, force. However, you also have to remember that, in most places at least, laws didn't just spring up out of nowhere - they're usually based on what people actually want, or what is good for them. And that doesn't just apply to modern laws, the majority of religious laws, for example, have very obvious reasons for existing, or can be seen to have evolved from ones that did.

That's an important point, because it means that most of the time, no force or fear is needed. I don't avoid killing people because I'm scared the police will catch me, I avoid killing people because I think it's generally wrong and I don't want to do it. The same is true for most people. When it comes to something like speeding, there may not be so many people who don't want to do it at all, especially on deserted roads at night, but most can still understand why we have speed laws and comply with them because they think they're a good idea. Although there are of course a fair number who disagree with the particular implementation of speeding laws and speed anyway, even with the fear of the law supposedly preventing them.

In the end, it's a sad fact of human nature, and indeed all life that we know of, that the person with the biggest stick wins. Laws are nothing if they can't be enforced, and as long as there are people willing to use force as their first resort, the only way to keep them from exploiting everyone else is to use more force.
 
I'm really enjoying where this discussion is going - really constructive. I think a lot of the irony regarding PCTs (paranoid conspiracy theorists) stems from their complete inability to reason or accept criticism. My sister has recently started believing in many of these theories and I repeatedly find myself being told that the government and the media are fear-mongering and spreading terror. All the while she is telling me about chemtrails, masonic world domination, fema camps (all, at face value, terrifying concepts) and the like. She does not realize that it is in fact the PCTs (and her) that are the fearmongerers, not the media. Of course, they would never accept this criticism and would simply accuse us of either being "in on it" (which i find hilarious) or of being "closed minded" (also hilarious and ironic).

EDIT- spelling
 
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I think it is also telling that the Conspiranoids so often conflate fiction with reality. How often do they site a movie as evidence of how something (like the government or big corporations) work and behave? Too many to count. Then there is the fact that they think that real world conspiracies could be pulled off like ones seen in movies while at the same time they are constantly watching those same movies for "clues" because apparently foreshadowing of evil plots is always buried in popular media years before it actually happens.........for some reason.
 
My sister has recently started believing in many of these theories and I repeatedly find myself being told that the government and the media are fear-mongering and spreading terror. All the while she is telling me about chemtrails, masonic world domination, fema camps (all, at face value, terrifying concepts) and the like.

Yeah. I found the whole "the media is exaggerating the threat posed by H1N1 to scare you, but the NWO is going to use this as an excuse for mass, forced vaccinations and FEMA camp imprisonment" series of articles on Infowars to be very ironic.
 
You might slip the "Chaos" theory into conversation with your sister sometime. While designed for understanding weather, it can predict other things too, and why it is so hard to keep a secret outside of one person.

http://www.imho.com/grae/chaos/chaos.html

Government leaks are more pandemic than Swine Flu, especially thanks to modern media. Even North Korea is having a harder time keeping everything under covers. Highly illegal cellphones hide in home spun bags taking illicit pictures. That was the primary reason the extent of their food crisis got out. Executions of prisoners found their way to YouTube and a storm of controversy via cellphone.

Twitter is getting information out via citizen reporters on the goings on of Iran and China. The recent Iran election mess elevated Twitter so high that President Obama requested Twitter postpone upgrades until the Iranian night so the leaks could continue.

North Korea is having information leaks, Iran and China are Twittering, YouTubing, and Facebooking. Do you really think the United States government, with it's massive case of information diarrhea, be able to keep a decent conspiracy quiet for longer than it takes a cell phone to snap a picture of the drawing board?
 
North Korea is having information leaks, Iran and China are Twittering, YouTubing, and Facebooking. Do you really think the United States government, with it's massive case of information diarrhea, be able to keep a decent conspiracy quiet for longer than it takes a cell phone to snap a picture of the drawing board?

Who would believe a decent conspiracy? The most audacious, unbelievable, unfathomable conspiracy has the highest probability of being disbelieved. Even if lots of evidence were leaked, it could be discounted or rationalized away due to the audacity and ridiculousness of the conspiracy.
 
Who would believe a decent conspiracy? The most audacious, unbelievable, unfathomable conspiracy has the highest probability of being disbelieved. Even if lots of evidence were leaked, it could be discounted or rationalized away due to the audacity and ridiculousness of the conspiracy.

Occam's razor's a bitch, ain't it? :rolleyes:
 
Who would believe a decent conspiracy? The most audacious, unbelievable, unfathomable conspiracy has the highest probability of being disbelieved. Even if lots of evidence were leaked, it could be discounted or rationalized away due to the audacity and ridiculousness of the conspiracy.

So, the more ridiculous something is the more likely it is?
 
Travis said:
Who would believe a decent conspiracy? The most audacious, unbelievable, unfathomable conspiracy has the highest probability of being disbelieved. Even if lots of evidence were leaked, it could be discounted or rationalized away due to the audacity and ridiculousness of the conspiracy.

So, the more ridiculous something is the more likely it is?

That's right. Tippit is finally admitting that he is the person responsible for 9/11.
 
So, the more ridiculous something is the more likely it is?

No, of course if you attributed the Principle of charity to what I said, you wouldn't have had to ask that stupid question. It means the more unfathomable the deed is, the less likely it is to be believed even if evidence surfaces. In other words, if you do happen to have the logistical power to execute some really nutty-sounding conspiracies, then you're protected by some aura of disbelievability.

It's like the schoolkid in the quiet classroom who picks up all of his books and throws them on the floor while crying out and pointing to his friend as the culprit. Nobody saw who actually threw the books, but the sheer incredibility of someone throwing their own books lends credibility to the accuser.
 
No, of course if you attributed the Principle of charity to what I said, you wouldn't have had to ask that stupid question. It means the more unfathomable the deed is, the less likely it is to be believed even if evidence surfaces. In other words, if you do happen to have the logistical power to execute some really nutty-sounding conspiracies, then you're protected by some aura of disbelievability.

It's like the schoolkid in the quiet classroom who picks up all of his books and throws them on the floor while crying out and pointing to his friend as the culprit. Nobody saw who actually threw the books, but the sheer incredibility of someone throwing their own books lends credibility to the accuser.

Okay. So they secretly and convolutedly blew up WTC7 and flew over the Pentagon, unlikelihood equalling evidence.
But then again: what the f*ck for?
 
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No, of course if you attributed the Principle of charity to what I said, you wouldn't have had to ask that stupid question. It means the more unfathomable the deed is, the less likely it is to be believed even if evidence surfaces. In other words, if you do happen to have the logistical power to execute some really nutty-sounding conspiracies, then you're protected by some aura of disbelievability.

It's like the schoolkid in the quiet classroom who picks up all of his books and throws them on the floor while crying out and pointing to his friend as the culprit. Nobody saw who actually threw the books, but the sheer incredibility of someone throwing their own books lends credibility to the accuser.


Sure, stuff like that happens, but rarely. Your default position seems to be that sort of thing happens all the time. Let me guess; when that guy attacked figure skater Nancy Kerrigan your first thought was "I bet she did it to herself". I think you've been watching too many murder mysteries, where murky motivations and red herrings abound. Real life (for better or worse) isn't like that...or at least is rarely like that.

At the end of the day in the business of figuring out who did what to whom, it all comes down to evidence and that, believe it or not, is ultimately a good thing.
 
But it's this 'rebel' posturing that kind of bothers me. A conspiracy theory allows one to assume the role of the noble dissident bravely striking a blow against the empire, fighting the good fight while everyone else either 'just doesn't get it' or are 'in on it' themselves.

Which is why references and memes about films like "The Matrix" and "V for Vendetta"
are so big among the Cters. This is why at any CT rally you see a bunch of morons standing around with Guy Fawkes masks on.
 

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