No pizza in post #1. You are supposed to use your brains!
The Heiwa Challenge
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No pizza in post #1. You are supposed to use your brains!
Senenmut
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this is alittle of topic but since there are alot of building professionals here, i was wondering what you guys think of this observation by Dr. Abolhassan Astaneh-Asl.
He says that, in some places, the fireproofing used to protect the WTC steel has “melted into a glassy residue.” [New York Times, 10/2/2001
http://www.historycommons.org/searc...ects=on&titles=on&descriptions=on&dosearch=on
i have looked at the msds of blazeshield and it says it melts at greater than 1800F. so i emailed them and underwriters labs about the specific temp. i got an email back from underwriters that just said email blazeshield. they havent responed yet.
anyone know the specific temp that blazeshield melts at?
He says that, in some places, the fireproofing used to protect the WTC steel has “melted into a glassy residue.” [New York Times, 10/2/2001
http://www.historycommons.org/searc...ects=on&titles=on&descriptions=on&dosearch=on
i have looked at the msds of blazeshield and it says it melts at greater than 1800F. so i emailed them and underwriters labs about the specific temp. i got an email back from underwriters that just said email blazeshield. they havent responed yet.
anyone know the specific temp that blazeshield melts at?
bill smith
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Very interesting question. How long ago did you mail Blazeshield ? Please keep us up to date on their answer. (if they answer)
PS: That NYT article from October 2 2001 was fascinating.
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/10/02/science/scarred-steel-holds-clues-and-remedies.html?pagewanted=1
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Unsurprisingly, you even have this effect ass-backwards.
Why don't you explain, in detail, why you think that friction favors collapse arrest.
Then I'll explain why it favors collapse progression.
tom
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Is that supposed to read "Please, tom ..."??
"Please" presupposes a certain level of courtesy exists between us, Anders. I've asked you ("please" several times over) to answer dozens of my questions that pertain directly to the topic of this thread.
You have returned my (& everyone else's) polite requests for dialogue by routinely & rudely ignoring them. You've taken yourself completely out of the conversation.
Sorry, Anders, you have not earned the right to feign civility. You've also forfeited any influence you might have had to direct the conversation.
It's called "the consequences of your actions".
tom
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Seeing that I've already answered this exact question perhaps 8 time (theoretically) and at least twice (evidence based), there seems little point in answering it again for someone who doesn't care about the answer in the first place...
Senenmut
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its been a couple of weeks now. underwriters sent an email about 4-5 days later.
yeah, that article is interesting because i think it gives dr sisson and gang a timeframe to work their slag attacking the steel theory. Dr. Astaneh-Asl got to groundzero on sept 19 and from what the article states is that he saw steel "once five-eighths of an inch thick, had vaporized."
plus this steel was most likely on top of the pile and not deep down in the rubble since it was only a week after the collapse. and of coare we had avaris fly over that saw some hot spots on top of the rubble pile where wtc 7 stood (pretty close if not right on where column 79 was) that measured 727C. what temp did jones' chips ignite at again?? haha...i know the answer. how much u wanna bet column 79 looked like swiss cheese when they pulled it out!!
then sisson comes out with this saying "Microstructural examination of a beam from Building 7 showed that temperatures higher than 940 °C were experienced in localized regions. Concurrent examination of the beam surfaces and surface layers showed evidence of extensive metal removal, and the analysis suggests that this removal occurred while the beam was exposed to the fire in the rubble pile after the building had collapsed."
http://www.springerlink.com/content/g5w603461r3078t3/
well ****, looks like aviris only saw temps up to 727c over wtc 7 on sept 16th, maybe sisson has to work with even a faster rate of corrosion.....like less than 5 days.
those were my thought after reading that article.
Justin39640
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please site page and paragraph
i was under the assumption that fire weakened the trusses that connected the core to the tube and disconnected them
thereby transferring too much load and failure occurred (overloading caused buckling of the core columns not heat)
i believe some around here have posted that the core columns didn't get hot enough to be weakened by heat
unlike some around here (you heiwa)
when i discover something i think to be true is actually wrong
i can change my mind based on the info given
its called learning
why didnt you use square tube?
round tube is stronger vertically
your paper still doesnt properly reflect the collapse
you never responded to this that i pointed out HERE POST 1421
the only models for a challenge in the 911 CONSPIRACY forums should be the twin towers, 7, or the pentagon
the fact that you say those collapses dont count makes this an off topic thread
it should be moved
bill smith
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Newtons Bit
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bill smith
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It's gotta be....
no analysis of the collapse can exclude the 47 upstanding massive core columns as NIST's did in their FAQ. Nor the offset descending 47 core columns in the disconnected upper block. Both upper and lower columns will chew the concrete floors that they meet into a rain of loose rubble that has little concentrated force, just like a bag of loose nails, while heavier will never hammer a nail into a plank.
...you may judge for yourself whether there really was a rigid and intact upper 10% left to act as a coherent force to hammer the other and stronger 90% of the building into the ground.(see videoclip)
http://www.911research.com/wtc/evidence/videos/docs/north_tower_collapse.mpeg Hammer ?
So the overall destructive power of the descending upper block on the lower intact stronger 90% of the building is massively diluted by comparison with a rigid and intact upper block
Then, as the upper and lower columns move deeper into each other bodies they will strip some floor connectors off their suporting upstanding core columns but often only on one side and perhaps sometimes only partially on both sides.. The concrete floors themselves, both upper and lower by now have each been shattered nto rubble by the action of the 47 core columns acting on them . So the one-side-attached floor skeletons may swing down to hang off the other column. This should be happening both above AND below so the chance of a friction arrested collapse increases enormously- entnglement in other words.
no analysis of the collapse can exclude the 47 upstanding massive core columns as NIST's did in their FAQ. Nor the offset descending 47 core columns in the disconnected upper block. Both upper and lower columns will chew the concrete floors that they meet into a rain of loose rubble that has little concentrated force, just like a bag of loose nails, while heavier will never hammer a nail into a plank.
...you may judge for yourself whether there really was a rigid and intact upper 10% left to act as a coherent force to hammer the other and stronger 90% of the building into the ground.(see videoclip)
http://www.911research.com/wtc/evidence/videos/docs/north_tower_collapse.mpeg Hammer ?
So the overall destructive power of the descending upper block on the lower intact stronger 90% of the building is massively diluted by comparison with a rigid and intact upper block
Then, as the upper and lower columns move deeper into each other bodies they will strip some floor connectors off their suporting upstanding core columns but often only on one side and perhaps sometimes only partially on both sides.. The concrete floors themselves, both upper and lower by now have each been shattered nto rubble by the action of the 47 core columns acting on them . So the one-side-attached floor skeletons may swing down to hang off the other column. This should be happening both above AND below so the chance of a friction arrested collapse increases enormously- entnglement in other words.
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If you at last acknowledge that your bogus challenge has no relation to the actual events of 9/11, why is this irrelevant drivel piling up in the 9/11 conspiracies sub-forum?
So, the thousand consultants, all experts in their fields, employed by NIST, the rearchers at Purdue and Berkeley, the FEMA team, the independent academics who concurred--all of these people are making errors obvious to a high school dropout? And not a single scientist or engineer from a country unfriendly to the U.S. has noticed those errors?
You are wrong. You are completely wrong. The real engineers here have explained over and over why you are wrong. The real engineers at the ASCE journal will tell your nutty guru that he is wrong.
But you won't quit. You confessed that in your dream world George Bush is still around, and so your errors are carved in stone. They will never go away.
Justin39640
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o yeah der
after all this nonsensical back and forth i lost sight of what happened on IMPACT
i did forget that columns were severed before hand and the inward bowing that implies such
nice Pdelta example with the straw
ty
bill smith
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FineWine; You are wrong. You are completely wrong. The real engineers here have explained over and over why you are wrong. The real engineers at the ASCE journal will tell your nutty guru that he is wrong. [/QUOTE said:
stateofgrace
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What Bill fails to realise is that he is actually destroying Heiwa's theory that one way crushing happened. Bill is actually showing that this did not happen.
Maybe he should check in with Heiwa and figure out what he is supposed to say.
I've said so. You can't understand why you are wrong, but then neither can your silly guru. I'm asking what your response will be to the ASCE journal's condemnation of Heiwa's mad garble of basic physics. Are you prepared to go on record as stating that any real engineer who points out the obvious errors made by your buffoonish hero must be an agent of the NWO?
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Bill's head is empty. Heiwa, however, has brought his lunacy to the attention of a journal run by real engineers. I want to know how Heiwa will spin the refutations of his idiocy that will accompany the discussion piece he submitted. I predict that every real engineer in the world will turn out to be a religious fundamentalist.
bill smith
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If you look at this video you can see pretty clearly that the upper block of WTC1 is in the process of advanced disintegration.
http://www.911research.com/wtc/evidence/videos/docs/north_tower_collapse.mpeg
This next image is a drawing of the hat truss which was spread over the top three floors. As you can see it is a massive tightly knit unit of interlaced steel the size of the top three floors.
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/arch/docs/hattruss.jpg
In this video you can see that the antenna, which rested on the top of the hat truss starts to fall before anythng else does. This must mean that the hat truss had come loose and was falling inside the shell of the upper block.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9-owhllM9k
So considering that the hat truss only had to fall the distance of eight floors or so to meet the top of the lower 90% of the building is it not obvious that this massive 'hat' would have become entangled in the upstanding columns and effectively 'capped ' the top of the intact part of the structure bringing immediate collapse arrest ?
http://www.911research.com/wtc/evidence/videos/docs/north_tower_collapse.mpeg
This next image is a drawing of the hat truss which was spread over the top three floors. As you can see it is a massive tightly knit unit of interlaced steel the size of the top three floors.
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/arch/docs/hattruss.jpg
In this video you can see that the antenna, which rested on the top of the hat truss starts to fall before anythng else does. This must mean that the hat truss had come loose and was falling inside the shell of the upper block.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9-owhllM9k
So considering that the hat truss only had to fall the distance of eight floors or so to meet the top of the lower 90% of the building is it not obvious that this massive 'hat' would have become entangled in the upstanding columns and effectively 'capped ' the top of the intact part of the structure bringing immediate collapse arrest ?
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It's not obvious at all. All the experts that reviewed it, and the engineering community in general, appear to believe that the collapse should have progressed as it did. I think that was the point of the investigation.
You are not really addressing any iof the ssues with your movies...but you specifically dont address the angle of impact, momemtum, connection effects and the scale.
The perimeter columns were only 14in wide, so even a small rotation of the top of the building would result in columns hitting floor beams rather than columns below. There are plenty of WTC1 videos that show significant rotations of the mast. So what is your argument when the top of the builing columns impact onto the bar joist trusses.??
The other thing that is worth noting is that once the collapse got going the perimeter columns did not really contribute to resisting the collapse...they got blown outwards and essentially unzipped.
Also the scale is deceptive. Your image of the belt truss implies it was almost solid..its over 99% air.
I am not sure how all this fits into you pizza box model, but I look foward to hearing. And ae911truth should be clear that what they really want is a new government investigation they will explain the collapses with pizza boxes.
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