WHO: Cocaine not so bad after all

[paximperium]

Bad counterargument. Certainly heavy cocaine use is involved in sickness, problematic addiction, and death. However, so is heavy usage of alcohol or tobacco.

The argument to make is whether it is, overall, worse than those two drugs which are legally sanctioned and culturally promoted. If we consider them good enough to be permissible, then logically, anything that is better than them in terms of public health outcomes should be too.

Do you have data to support that overall comparison?

Bad counterargument as in: Because X is worst, therefore Y must not be so bad? There is a logical fallacy somewhere in there....hmmmm...

 

[paximperium]

How many drunk driving mashup victims have you seen? Alcohol-related violence victims? Cyrrhosis? Korsakoff's? Acute intoxication?

Yes, both suck. The question is whether cocaine sucks worse than alcohol or tobacco, because that's where we've drawn the line of what is an acceptable amount of suckage.

How about we draw the line right here where coke is still banned and remained banned? I have enough work dealing with the drunks.

 

[Cainkane1]

Coke destroyed a friendship. PCP destroyed another. I can only draw from my horrible past experiences. Dope causes anger, stalking, theft and assault. I've never met a person who can use this stuff responsibly.

 

[saizai]

Bad counterargument as in: Because X is worst, therefore Y must not be so bad? There is a logical fallacy somewhere in there....hmmmm...

X has badness f(x)
Y has badness f < f(x)
We make things illegal based on badness *
X is legal, therefore f(x) < minimum legal f(x)
Therefore Y should also be legal

* is the only logically problematic part - namely that we don't, in fact, legislate based on logic and due consideration of the facts. Hence my caveat, "logically".

In any case, your argument is nonsensical - who said anything about "worst"?

And please, if you're going to call me on a fallacy, use the link in my sig and actually cite the fallacy. 'cause I think you're ********ting; 'fallacy' does not mean 'argument I disagree with', it means a specific flaw in the structural validity of the proof.

 

[Professor Yaffle]

I've always presumed that many people are drawn to drugs precisely because of its illegality.

 

[saizai]

Dope causes anger, stalking, theft and assault. I've never met a person who can use this stuff responsibly.

On these two points at least: not in my experience, and not according to the research surveys I've read (e.g. recent Lancet article).

I've met plenty of people who are perfectly capable of handling pot. I've never seen it 'cause' any of those things, though it might well be part of a self-reinforcing pattern of preexisting behaviors.

TTBOMK PCP is worse than cocaine in most respects, again ref. the Lancet.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

<snip>

My point is only about the fact that we've already decided that X is OK. Things that are more ok than X are thus necessarily OK too.

<snip>

No, that is not what we have decided. The reality is we can't stop alcohol and tobacco being used even though we know both are harmful and are definitively NOT ok.

 

[saizai]

I've always presumed that many people are drawn to drugs precisely because of its illegality.

Note the behavior of US adolescents and college students WRT alcohol vs European ones (at least where alcohol is legal at early age).

Kinda hamstrings the whole "let's rebel / be adults / get wasted" fun when it's legal and boring. Not to say they don't still have it, just it doesn't have as much oomph.

 

[Professor Yaffle]

In addressing the rise in use, the report posits that key drivers are the drug's illicit status combined with both rising wealth (for cocaine powder) and increased poverty (for crack cocaine)

http://transform-drugs.blogspot.com/2009/06/report-they-didnt-want-you-to-see.htmlhttp://transform-drugs.blogspot.com/

 

[saizai]

No, that is not what we have decided. The reality is we can't stop alcohol and tobacco being used even though we know both are harmful and are definitively NOT ok.

Since when have we been able to stop cocaine being used?

 

[Professor Yaffle]

Coke destroyed a friendship. PCP destroyed another. I can only draw from my horrible past experiences. Dope causes anger, stalking, theft and assault. I've never met a person who can use this stuff responsibly.

Experimental and occasional use are by far the most common types of use, and compulsive/dysfunctional is far less common." (pg. 28)

http://transform-drugs.blogspot.com/2009/06/report-they-didnt-want-you-to-see.html

 

[paximperium]

I've always presumed that many people are drawn to drugs precisely because of its illegality.

Nah, its because it is addicting.

 

[paximperium]

Since when have we been able to stop cocaine being used?

Since when should we stop trying?

 

[paximperium]

In any case, your argument is nonsensical - who said anything about "worst"?

Good point. It is bad. Not much more to argue here.

 

[Professor Yaffle]

Nah, its because it is addicting.

I'm sorry???? You think people START taking drugs because they are addictive? Do you mean that the addictiveness is seen as something desirable, or that it is so addictive that it starts getting you addicted before you even take it?

 

[saizai]

or that it is so addictive that it starts getting you addicted before you even take it?

Oh man, if you ever figure out how to do that, please let me know. That kind of **** would make you rich. (And dead. )

 

[paximperium]

I'm sorry???? You think people START taking drugs because they are addictive? Do you mean that the addictiveness is seen as something desirable, or that it is so addictive that it starts getting you addicted before you even take it?

They start because of a multitude of reasons. They keep taking it because it is addictive.

Somehow I really doubt that illegality of drugs is that big a draw to start, unless you have evidence to the contrary?

 

[Professor Yaffle]

They start because of a multitude of reasons. They keep taking it because it is addictive.

Then your response to my post was a non sequitur.

Somehow I really doubt that illegality of drugs is that big a draw to start, unless you have evidence to the contrary?

At the moment, the only supporting evidence I have is remembering what most teenagers are like (always wanting to do the very things they are forbidden to do - and then calling other kids "chicken" if they don't do it too). I will try to see if there is any real evidence.

 

[paximperium]

Then your response to my post was a non sequitur.

Sure. I agree.

At the moment, the only supporting evidence I have is remembering what most teenagers are like (always wanting to do the very things they are forbidden to do - and then calling other kids "chicken" if they don't do it too). I will try to see if there is any real evidence.

No prob.

 

[SatanicSheep]

Now I've seen it all: a Satanic Sheep in Korea who loves coke products.

That, and Obama making a major speech dressed in a Batman outfit, are the final signs of the Apocalypse. One down, one to go. Repent, people.

Just playing with the hand that I've been dealt. Sorry if it's bringing about the Apocalypse (hastening the Rapture?) You can send me hate mail (thank you card?) from where ever you turn up.