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A Pheonix rises from the ashes

Can be done legislatively too as here in Illinois with the Drew Peterson case. They changed the law so they could change rules of evidence just for him.
While that might work there, since it's an ongoing case, I don't see any way a legislature could ex post facto create a crime to charge someone with, or change the conditions of an existing crime so that they committed that crime and charge them with it.

I mean I think what that person did was sick, but I just can't see any legal justification that would let any legislature do that. It's reasonably clearly enshrined in law that you can't create laws just so someone who violated that brand new law can be charged.
 
I think the reason it worked with Drew Peterson and wouldn't work in this case is the difference between the rules of evidence and the substantive law of what constitutes murder. Although I only skimmed the decision, the SCOTUS' upholding of TN's retroactive judicial abrogation of the year and a day rule seemed to really hinge on the fact that it was a judicial abrogation, and the peculiar way that common law is made. I do doubt that a legislative abrogation could be retroactively applied.
 
I think the reason it worked with Drew Peterson and wouldn't work in this case is the difference between the rules of evidence and the substantive law of what constitutes murder. Although I only skimmed the decision, the SCOTUS' upholding of TN's retroactive judicial abrogation of the year and a day rule seemed to really hinge on the fact that it was a judicial abrogation, and the peculiar way that common law is made. I do doubt that a legislative abrogation could be retroactively applied.

Well that holds up for obvious reasons. Lets say that you pass a law that says that you have the right to use lethal force on people who violate your property, even if they are fleeing or incapacitated.

Now let us say that someone shoots a teenager who wandered onto his property in the back while he was running away from the crazy man with the gun. The Lawyer uses this law as a defense.

The judges rule it unconstitutional, and that because how the law was written was unconstitutional, this clearly does not constitute a defense. That means he did not have the right to do what he did, and is thus obviously a criminal for violating existing statute. SCOTUS more or less said that similar to the way you cannot be convicted of violating an unconstitutional law, you cannot be protected by one.

You could use Mr. Jackson's death to launch a criminal case and drag it up to the state supreme court that way, but for obvious reasons I'm hoping that never ever happens.
 
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Well that holds up for obvious reasons. Lets say that you pass a law that says that you have the right to use lethal force on people who violate your property, even if they are fleeing or incapacitated.

Now let us say that someone shoots a teenager who wandered onto his property in the back while he was running away from the crazy man with the gun. The Lawyer uses this law as a defense.

The judges rule it unconstitutional, and that because how the law was written was unconstitutional, this clearly does not constitute a defense.
Your hypothetical gets difficult to believe here. On what grounds would such a law be unconstitutional? The state has the power to define crimes and defenses, and if the state says that it is a defense to homicide that the victim was a trespasser on the defendant's property, I don't see what the constitutional objection would be to such a (terrible terrible) law.
That means he did not have the right to do what he did, and is thus obviously a criminal for violating existing statute.
I don't think that's right - one central principle of criminal law is the requirement of notice - Due Process requires that a person have some notice - fair warning that his behavior was criminal - in order to be convicted. If the law on the books says that that's a defense, it would violate due process to then remove such a defense ex post, especially as against a private actor in a criminal case.

SCOTUS more or less said that similar to the way you cannot be convicted of violating an unconstitutional law, you cannot be protected by one.
Not at all. Even accepting your first 2.5 paragraphs as correct (which I don't), this is not what the SCOTUS did in Rogers - neither the Tennessee Supreme Court nor the SCOTUS struck down the year and a day rule as unconstitutional. The Tennessee Supreme Court struck down the rule as anachronistic and essentially lousy law, using their law-making power, not the power of judicial review. They were making common law, like supreme courts sometimes do. The only question for the SCOTUS was whether or not retroactive application of the judicial abrogation was constitutional, not whether the year and a day rule itself was constitutional (it is).

The SCOTUS's decision in Stevens strongly implied, if it didn't outright state, that the Tennessee legislature could not have applied such a change in law ex post. The Court interpreted the Ex Post Facto Clause of the Constitution to apply only to statutes passed by state legislatures. Judicial lawmaking was similarly restricted, but not by the Ex Post Facto clause, but by the Due Process Clause. But that restriction was not as broad as the other - it only limited judicial lawmaking that was "unexpected and indefensible by reference to the law which had been expressed prior to the conduct in issue."

In other words, if a state legislature changed the law, it could not be applied retroactively, because it would violate the Ex Post Facto Clause. But if a state court changed the law, it could be applied retroactively unless it was an "unexpected and indefensible" change, because that is the limitation imposed by the Due Process Clause. The Court held it wasn't unexpected and indefensible, so retroactive application was fine.

But understand: at neither of the supreme courts was the constitutionality of the year and a day rule at issue (which means your hypo is inapplicable) - it was the retroactive abrogation whose constitutionality was tested.

You could use Mr. Jackson's death to launch a criminal case and drag it up to the state supreme court that way, but for obvious reasons I'm hoping that never ever happens.
I'm sorry; the reasons are not obvious to me. Unless you mean that you hope Mr. Jackson doesn't die of AIDS, or that you hope Mr. Jackson outlives his father, in which case, yes, I agree.

Changing of statute of limitations has been done in the past and upheld...
If the s/l is expired, it is unconstitutional. Stogner v. California, U.S. 2003.
If the s/l is unexpired, you are right, it has been upheld, but I don't believe it's ever gone to the SCOTUS.
This ought to be no different.

But there's a big difference.

If I commit a crime today, and the s/l is 5 years, and 4 years from now the s/l is extended to 10 years, and 2 years later I am prosecuted for my crime, I am being prosecuted for something that was a crime when I did it.

If I commit a homicidal act today (in a state with the year and a day rule), and a year and two days from today, the victim dies, and then the law is changed abolishing the year and a day rule, and I am prosecuted for murder, I am being prosecuted for murder for an act that was not murder when I did it.

That's the difference.
 
Your hypothetical gets difficult to believe here. On what grounds would such a law be unconstitutional? The state has the power to define crimes and defenses, and if the state says that it is a defense to homicide that the victim was a trespasser on the defendant's property, I don't see what the constitutional objection would be to such a (terrible terrible) law.

I don't think that's right - one central principle of criminal law is the requirement of notice - Due Process requires that a person have some notice - fair warning that his behavior was criminal - in order to be convicted. If the law on the books says that that's a defense, it would violate due process to then remove such a defense ex post, especially as against a private actor in a criminal case.
Such a law is indeed on the books - don't kill other people. You'll note that SCOTUS ruled that unconstitutional laws used to blank out other laws (such as laws that it's only homicide if it occurs within one year and one day of the action being used to blank out, well... homicide).

As for the grounds for my hypothetical law being found unconstitutional in one of 50 states with 50 separate constitutions... it's a hypothetical. Don't overthink it.
Not at all. Even accepting your first 2.5 paragraphs as correct (which I don't), this is not what the SCOTUS did in Rogers - neither the Tennessee Supreme Court nor the SCOTUS struck down the year and a day rule as unconstitutional. The Tennessee Supreme Court struck down the rule as anachronistic and essentially lousy law, using their law-making power, not the power of judicial review. They were making common law, like supreme courts sometimes do. The only question for the SCOTUS was whether or not retroactive application of the judicial abrogation was constitutional, not whether the year and a day rule itself was constitutional (it is).

The SCOTUS's decision in Stevens strongly implied, if it didn't outright state, that the Tennessee legislature could not have applied such a change in law ex post. The Court interpreted the Ex Post Facto Clause of the Constitution to apply only to statutes passed by state legislatures. Judicial lawmaking was similarly restricted, but not by the Ex Post Facto clause, but by the Due Process Clause. But that restriction was not as broad as the other - it only limited judicial lawmaking that was "unexpected and indefensible by reference to the law which had been expressed prior to the conduct in issue."

In other words, if a state legislature changed the law, it could not be applied retroactively, because it would violate the Ex Post Facto Clause. But if a state court changed the law, it could be applied retroactively unless it was an "unexpected and indefensible" change, because that is the limitation imposed by the Due Process Clause. The Court held it wasn't unexpected and indefensible, so retroactive application was fine.

But understand: at neither of the supreme courts was the constitutionality of the year and a day rule at issue (which means your hypo is inapplicable) - it was the retroactive abrogation whose constitutionality was tested.
We are violently agreeing here. Courts are not subject to Ex Post Facto most likely. Rogers v. Tennessee was a 5-4 case after all, and the dissent (Scalia, Stevens, Breyer, and of course Thomas) was across the board. That's a small-government conservative, a... Stevens, a pragmitist/liberal, and someone who compulsively avoids majority opinions. It's the classic example of a case that's going to be revisited, and as a lawyer if my client was subjected to it, I'd take it straight up as high as it would go.

So a shift in the court could swing Ex Post Facto right back off the books for courts. It wasn't a popular decision.
 
Such a law is indeed on the books - don't kill other people. You'll note that SCOTUS ruled that unconstitutional laws used to blank out other laws (such as laws that it's only homicide if it occurs within one year and one day of the action being used to blank out, well... homicide).
Again you appear to be saying that the year and a day rule is unconstitutional, and again - if that is what you are saying - you are mistaken.
As for the grounds for my hypothetical law being found unconstitutional in one of 50 states with 50 separate constitutions... it's a hypothetical. Don't overthink it.
Hey, fair enough. But I did say that even accepting your hypothetical, it's not applicable to what we're talking about, because your hypothetical was about finding a criminal defense unconstitutional, while what we're talking about is not the year and a day rule being found unconstitutional.

We are violently agreeing here.
Partially, I think.
Courts are not subject to Ex Post Facto most likely. Rogers v. Tennessee was a 5-4 case after all, and the dissent (Scalia, Stevens, Breyer, and of course Thomas) was across the board. That's a small-government conservative, a... Stevens, a pragmitist/liberal, and someone who compulsively avoids majority opinions. It's the classic example of a case that's going to be revisited, and as a lawyer if my client was subjected to it, I'd take it straight up as high as it would go.

So a shift in the court could swing Ex Post Facto right back off the books for courts. It wasn't a popular decision.

No, but justices (other than Thomas) do respect stare decisis, and Scalia or Stevens could vote the other way if it comes to the Court again. Not to say you are wrong - you are right, a shift in the Court could change the law in this area, but who knows?
 
Bad Scrut! Go stand in the corner for a while.:spjimlad::spjimlad:

(He changed the spelling, according to the article, so that he wouldn't have the same name as his father who attempted to kill him.)
Maybe Scrut prefers to side with the father. :( Apparently Scrut thinks this thread has room for that kind of humor.
 
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