single-payer system ... singled out

[Ziggurat]

Wow!!! I just read this whole thread and as an American I couldn't disagree more with Ziggurat. The only thing that I was able to get from his posts is that he is out of touch with most Americans.

Why? Because I express my own opinion? I never made any claims about the opinions of other Americans, so on what basis can you conclude that I'm out of touch?

I tried, I really did, I read them carefully, I really wanted to understand his point of view. The reason I was trying to understand him is because my experience with my health insurance has been nothing but a nightmare.

So... anecdote.

So I am curious to see how people like him come the these conclusions. He has failed.

Failed at what, exactly?

I also find it very insulting that he thinks the only reason people have problems with their health insurance is because their lazy

And I find it insulting when someone attributes a position to me which I have never expressed.

I think people should still be able to purchase insurance if they can but at the same time I wish we had something that would insure any citizen, not just children, if they found themselves without a job. I am all for paying higher taxes to achieve this.

Which means you're all for forcing other people to pay for your care.

 

[KoihimeNakamura]

You missed the part 'paying higher taxes to achieve this'. You'd also be paying for it yourself.

 

[Ziggurat]

You missed the part 'paying higher taxes to achieve this'. You'd also be paying for it yourself.

The only reason to do any payments through taxation is to force other people to pay. So no, I didn't miss anything.

 

[martu]

Guys, seriously. This was an interesting discussion until people started making accusations of being ideologues and how they were "scary". Couldn't we just discuss the issues, and not try to find hidden motives?

It is my opinion. It is also my opinion that debating with children who use such phrases as 'bite me' is pointless. I am done.

 

[Oliver]

You missed the part 'paying higher taxes to achieve this'. You'd also be paying for it yourself.

Out of curiosity since it's being said that Americans pay much more for healthcare than people living in "UHC-Countries". In Germany the Government decided that the percentual fee for UHC is 15,5% [pre-tax income] since January 1, 2009. Of course, people with higher incomes usually switch to private insurance to safe money - but how much do people in here pay for their Healthcare in percent then if it's so expensive in the US?

 

[Architect]

Beerina, this particular point on medical private sector funding of healthcare has arisen before and the point was made by others - and well supported, IIRC - that in fact your government, not the private health firms, support pharma research the most. Are you going to try and prove this to be wrong?

I note with some humour that Beerina has been strangely absent since this point was raised.

 

[Architect]

If advocates of government-run health care think they can make the system work for everyone, they should demonstrate that by making medicare work first.

And if they do, you'll agree to roll-out of UHC?

 

[ARubberChickenWithAPulley]

Of course, people with higher incomes usually switch to private insurance to safe money - but how much do people in here pay for their Healthcare in percent then if it's so expensive in the US?

That could vary greatly person to person and year to year, and it's a bit tricky to calculate -- since we don't have one figure to go by. But I'll try, including my employer share of premiums as income:

- Premiums: 7.4% of income
- Out of pocket for me: 3.3% (I maxed my deductible this year because we had a baby, so everything will probably be much lower this year.)
Total: 10.7%

Coming out of my paycheck is also:
- I save extra (about another 3%).
- Medicare: 2.9%
- State Medicaid (no idea. I did a rough calculated at about .5%).
- Probably other misc. programs paid for by taxes that I don't know the amount (VA care comes to mind, plus the military health care system).

Total from income: Approx. 14.1%, and extra 3% in savings, for a total of 17.1%.

This year unless I or someone in my family gets very sick, it will be much, much lower (probably in the range of 10%). If someone gets very sick, it will be about the same.

 

[Architect]

That's rather a lot of money.

 

[Oliver]

That could vary greatly person to person and year to year, and it's a bit tricky to calculate -- since we don't have one figure to go by. But I'll try, including my employer share of premiums as income:

- Premiums: 7.4% of income
- Out of pocket for me: 3.3% (I maxed my deductible this year because we had a baby, so everything will probably be much lower this year.)
Total: 10.7%

Coming out of my paycheck is also:
- I save extra (about another 3%).
- Medicare: 2.9%
- State Medicaid (no idea. I did a rough calculated at about .5%).
- Probably other misc. programs paid for by taxes that I don't know the amount (VA care comes to mind, plus the military health care system).

Total from income: Approx. 14.1%, and extra 3% in savings, for a total of 17.1%.

This year unless I or someone in my family gets very sick, it will be much, much lower (probably in the range of 10%). If someone gets very sick, it will be about the same.

Thanks for your figures, ARubberChickenWithAPulley. Your example sounds pretty complicated indeed - so hats off for knowing the numbers. And your example sounds rather positive in contrast to the claim that US-Healthcare is much more expensive than UHC in other countries. So it looks as if I have to find a detailed explanation for that argument of high costs ...

 

[garcia<3]

Why? Because I express my own opinion? I never made any claims about the opinions of other Americans, so on what basis can you conclude that I'm out of touch?



So... anecdote.



Failed at what, exactly?



And I find it insulting when someone attributes a position to me which I have never expressed.



Which means you're all for forcing other people to pay for your care.

You are right, you never said people were lazy you said people make stupid decision, like getting hit by a drunk driver. I see, I will leave my personal anecdotes out of this argument.

 

[Architect]

So it looks as if I have to find a detailed explanation for that argument of high costs ...

Then I'd suggest that you look at some of the earlier posts in the thread, plus the linked threads. It's all in there, in detail

 

[ARubberChickenWithAPulley]

Thanks for your figures, ARubberChickenWithAPulley. Your example sounds pretty complicated indeed - so hats off for knowing the numbers. And your example sounds rather positive in contrast to the claim that US-Healthcare is much more expensive than UHC in other countries. So it looks as if I have to find a detailed explanation for that argument of high costs ...

A couple of things to keep in mind:
- I am young and healthy, and insured. People go bankrupt and get into medical debt when they get real sick, lose their health insurance, and thus their income, and suddenly have to pay for everything out of pocket. So for some individuals, it could suddenly go from 17% to... well, more than 100%.

- An an oft-quoted statistic is that 10% of patients account for about 70% of health care costs in the U.S. In other words, the biggest cost issue appears to be with how much we spend on the very sickest and elderly. (For one anecdote, my friend's father has stage 4 cancer and has been given days, maybe weeks, to live. He has demanded -- and received -- more than one full body scan, and may even get chemotherapy, even though all of his doctors have agreed with the diagnosis that he is terminal. Of course, I don't blame him for not giving up, but it costs a lot of money for something that is very, very, very unlikely to affect the outcome).

 

[Ziggurat]

And if they do, you'll agree to roll-out of UHC?

If they can fix medicare, I'd rethink my opposition. If they can't, then I have no reason to think they can do any better by expanding the system, and every reason to expect worse.

 

[Ziggurat]

You are right, you never said people were lazy you said people make stupid decision, like getting hit by a drunk driver.

Is misrepresentations of my position the only thing you have to offer?

 

[Ziggurat]

It is my opinion. It is also my opinion that debating with children who use such phrases as 'bite me' is pointless. I am done.

You weren't debating me, you were insulting me. Don't expect me to be polite in return, and don't pretend that I am the one who made it personal. You were.

 

[elbe]

If they can fix medicare, I'd rethink my opposition. If they can't, then I have no reason to think they can do any better by expanding the system, and every reason to expect worse.

I don't know how valid it is, but I have some concern that medicare isn't fixed because there are too many people who don't want it to be - either as more evidence that the US govt is incompetent (unless it's the military, apparently) or because they just want the entire system razed and the poor left to fend for themselves.

 

[ARubberChickenWithAPulley]

I don't know how valid it is, but I have some concern that medicare isn't fixed because there are too many people who don't want it to be - either as more evidence that the US govt is incompetent (unless it's the military, apparently) or because they just want the entire system razed and the poor left to fend for themselves.

I'd guess that cuts both ways. There are probably people who don't want to "fix" Medicare because it would require admitting that it is broken to begin with, and would cast a lot of attention on its flaws. It would also probably require doing even more things that the private sector already does -- like putting more resources toward scrutinizing claims to catch fraud.

 

[garcia<3]

I don't know how valid it is, but I have some concern that medicare isn't fixed because there are too many people who don't want it to be - either as more evidence that the US govt is incompetent (unless it's the military, apparently) or because they just want the entire system razed and the poor left to fend for themselves.

You mean like what the Govenator is proposing.

http://www.venturacountystar.com/news/2009/may/24/state-may-ax-healthy-families-help/

 

[KoihimeNakamura]

Oliver:
I am currently paying ~.1% for just minimal vision insurance (that's doing me no good, to boot.). I'll be paying more for actual insurance through my employer in July. This was a minor issue a while ago when I had a hangnail, and probably will be again, when I finally have sufficient insurance to go.. and get it looked at.

The only reason to do any payments through taxation is to force other people to pay. So no, I didn't miss anything.

Except they pay too. So yes, you missed something. Everyone is paying taxes, so everyone pays.