"Abortion Doctor" Murdered

Comcast shut my access down last night for maintenance so the following are some replies I intended to post yesterday.

A Christian Sceptic said:
Pro-choicers wouldn't restrict choices in areas outside of abortion than - but yet I bet they do - I doubt there are many who are 100% Pro-choce for all things. I bet some of them are for seat-belt laws, and maybe even restricting what people can do on the property they own. They just think you shouldn't be restricted on having a doctor kill their unborn child.

Actually the overgeneralization is about Pro-Choicers being for all or most choices and Pro-Lifers wanting to restrict all or most Choices. I think it's incorrect.
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Why don't you just define yourself as you see fit rather than worrying the labels don't fit your view? The terms pro-choice and anti-abortion are pretty standard and specific to the choice of abortion, not the choice of seat belts or whatever. (I'm sorry I cannot agree pro-life is accurate unless the label is changed to pro-fetal life, or pro-life and anti-choice. If you want to call me pro abortion choice, that would be fine.)

If you feel you are anti-abortion but pro-choice, then you are pro-choice. Most pro-choice people are not 'for' abortions. They are against a law restricting individual choice in the matter. Even some anti-abortionists are wise enough to recognize the legality of abortion should not be where their energy is focused.
 
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sugarb said:
You know...there is no way to enter into a discussion involving abortion without there being a whole lot of thoughtlessness and a whole lot of cruelty. Emotions run high, and they do so for many, many reasons--most of which people aren't able to necessarily articulate to the satisfaction of anyone who pigeonholes them into some arbitrary, pre-defined category. So let me elaborate here, if I may.....
I hope that doesn't trip your irony meter again.
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:hug6 I'm sorry, that sounds heartbreaking.
 
A Christian Sceptic said:
Many Pro-Lifers are seeing this as a States Rights issue which is being forced upon them by the Federal Government (and those in other Pro-Choicers in other states).

If you miss that you'll be missing a large component of the friction happening between the two sides.
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This is a total red herring and it's BS. The vast majority of anti-abortion activists only make the claim this is about state's rights because they want to see abortion be illegal and it isn't. If they could get a federal law passed banning abortion they wouldn't care one snit about state's rights.
 
A Christian Sceptic said:
And right away in this thread you have people immediately blaming entire segments of the population for this psycho's actions.
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I wanted to address the claim there are merely a tiny fraction of anti-abortionists out there ranting murder inciting rhetoric.

Bill O'Reilly claimed over and over Dr Tiller the baby killer would murder any baby for $5,000. Much of the extreme right either embraces this attitude or goes along with it because it brings in voters. Karl Rove in particular actively recruited this group. Abortion is murder is a rally cry for Evangelicals.

It's not a handful a people. It's a lot of people who have money and media access. It's actively embraced by the Evangelical church. They've taken the abstinence only and anti-abortion message all over the planet.

Not everyone who is anti-abortion is out there screaming, abortion is murder. The Catholics are against abortion but I doubt many are associated with this hate message like the Evangelicals are. But Evangelicals who might claim Dr Tiller's murder was not what they had in mind are not out there condemning the rhetoric because they agree with it.
 
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Roeder's contact at Operation Rescue, Cheryl Sullenger, had served six months in jail for conspiring to bomb a clinic in 88. Her phone number, name, and the words Operation Rescue were on the paper on the dash of his car when he was arrested. Pretty sure she gave him the church and home address of Tiller, and it was also listed on their website. Roeder had protested Tiller's clinic at Operation Rescue protests, and had vandalized Tiller's clinic four times in the last few years, including the day before the murder.
 
More stories about Dr. Tiller from his patients:

http://parenting.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/04/patients-remember-dr-tiller/?hp

I'm quoting the last one.

In 2002 I found out I was carrying triplets. My husband did not want me to have them. The day of my appointment I was scared and not sure this was the right decision. They took me back and did an ultrasound. I asked if they all had heartbeats and the nurse said yes. I asked if I would have the chance to talk to the doctor and right away she went and got Dr Tiller. He came in and looked at my babies on the screen. Then he looked at me and said “God gave you these babies, it’s not my job to take them away.” He asked if I agreed and I immediately said yes. He told the nurse to take me to the counter and have them give me my money. You know that day was a turning point for me. I ended up having a great pregnancy and three healthy baby girls. I can never thank Dr. Tiller enough for sending me away that day.
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So much for Bill O'Reilly's lies about this man.
 
Edited by Tricky: 
Edited for Rule 12 violation.

If you make an attempt to address the topic or previous comments, you may escape infraction, but a post that is nothing but an insult is an obvious violation.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Tricky
 
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The Painter said:
Edited by Tricky: 
Edited for Rule 12 violation.

If you make an attempt to address the topic or previous comments, you may escape infraction, but a post that is nothing but an insult is an obvious violation.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Tricky
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Geese, right in the middle of responding the post changed before my very eyes. I actually had a reply. Perhaps I can word it as a general question instead.

Is every death at the hands of another murder or not?
 
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linusrichard said:
Thank you for this. If I were the sentencing judge, part of the sentence would be copying these stories out longhand.
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Great idea. I hope he has to listen to some of these patients in the sentencing part of the trial. Then people should spam O'Reilly with copies of the testimony.
 
I'd like to post a short side track: My appreciation to the mods for the difficult task of moderating such difficult topics as this one.

And short of calling people murderers, I for one, have a pretty high tolerance for ad homs in such an emotional thread. [/sidetrack]
 
The Painter said:
Between 10 and 25 weeks??? That is a very big amount of time. 2.5 months to 6.25 months before birth. According to you, there is desire therefore there is life. By your definition, this Doctor was a murderer. You have contributed to what you abhor.
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First, to respond to your question: There are other considerations. A fetus without a proper brain development may never have desires. A fetus that isn't viable for other reasons.

I don't know the details of what this doctor did. Do you? How many late-term abortions did he do, and what were the circumstances? I understand someone tried to bring charges against him, but he was acquitted.

In other words, what is your case that he was a murderer?

Second, my point was about those who go around holding signs up saying, "Abortion is murder". They're claiming that all, routine, first-trimester abortions are murder, and my observation is that their other positions and behaviors are inconsistent with the belief that "Abortion is murder"--including their condemnation of the killing of the doctor and trying to distance themselves from that position. Their inflammatory rhetoric certainly helped encourage this guy to kill the doctor.
 
skeptigirl said:
I wanted to address the claim there are merely a tiny fraction of anti-abortionists out there ranting murder inciting rhetoric.
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There's a Planned Parenthood abortion clinic a couple miles from where I live. I have occasion to go past there pretty regularly. Anytime I see protesters there (maybe once a week), I always see a prominent sign that says, "Abortion is murder".

I also see similar rhetoric on billboards around the area. Stuff like, "Every hour 135 unborn children are killed" (or something like it).

If it's a minority of pro-lifers making such statements, then they're the ones in control of the movement overall.
 
I can't help but feel that saying "Abortion is Murder" is not a means to incite violence. I always felt it was meant to make people realize it was wrong on some emotional level. To get them to see what they feel is "the truth" about abortion.

Having come from a Christian family, as I've said before, I remember many discussions about the morality of abortion. And the consensus opinion at the time was the people accepted abortion because they didn't realize how horrid it was, and things like "abortion is murder" and commercials with fetus' and so forth were meant to shock people. To get them to see the fetus as a person. To reach them emotionally.

Not to incite violence.
 
JoeTheJuggler said:
There's a Planned Parenthood abortion clinic a couple miles from where I live. I have occasion to go past there pretty regularly. Anytime I see protesters there (maybe once a week), I always see a prominent sign that says, "Abortion is murder".

I also see similar rhetoric on billboards around the area. Stuff like, "Every hour 135 unborn children are killed" (or something like it).

If it's a minority of pro-lifers making such statements, then they're the ones in control of the movement overall.
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Drive into Kansas on an Interstate sometime.
All the way to Wichita, Bilboars proclaim anr/or imply the "Abortion is Murder" theme.
(In fact, there was one on I-35 at the OK border that proclaimed "Wichita-Murder Capitol" )
 
I'm so glad I won't live in Wichita anymore. If abortion is murder, is scrambling an egg killing a chicken?
 
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