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The Heiwa Challenge

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Heiwa, Part 'B' in your scenario is:

A) Gaining both mass and velocity
B) Traveling in the same direction as Part 'C'
C) Not only capable of destroying 'A', it actually accomplishes this.
D) All of the above.

According BLGB part B is rubble. In my opinion rubble (part B) can not one-way crush down anything but Bazant, Greening and Benson (and various other clowns) think so. The purpose of The Heiwa Challenge is to design a structure that, when being one-way crushed down produces rubble that assist in the feat!

I have never heard of rubble gaining mass, velocity, travelling in a certain direction, destroying non-rubble, etc. Any idea to the contrary?
 
Heiwa,

Hello tom.

1. Yes, The Heiwa Challenge is as per post #1.

[... all the usual nonsense we've heard 100x before ...]

The purpose of The Heiwa Challenge is simply to produce a structure that does not behave according the Björkman Axiom.

I am never rude.
.
But you ARE being rude. Extremely rude.

A person in a debate who insists that everyone else talk ONLY about HIS chosen subject, and refuses to address other people's points is being as rude as any arrogant, conceited buffoon dominating the conversation at any cocktail party.

So, please stop playing the buffoon.

I have addressed YOUR points at length. Now please address MY points.

You can find MY points here:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4743226&postcount=769

Please skip over the first section. We've addressed it already.

Please start with the "Fundamental Physics" section. Please let me know any sentence with which you disagree. Feel free to assess this ONE section only.

Then we can move on to the next.

Thank you.

tom
 
Tom, you are a nice guy who really does post things that are relevant to the conversation, but can I give you a tip. Stop saying please to loonies, it a sign of weakness in their eyes and allows them some form of false credibility.

BTW, well done for your clear, concise posts.
 
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Heiwa,

Yes, the mast was like a flag pole. Not very heavy. The vertical load could easily be transmitted downwards by structure below. Transverse wind loads?
They produce a bending moment at the bottom, blue platform. Which is transmitted via the hat truss frames to the core and perimeter columns as shear forces/moments.

A "bending moment in the blue platform ... is transmitted to the core & perimeter columns as SHEAR forces"???

Are you REALLY sure you want to stick with that statement??

Did you say that you are allegedly a mechanical engineer...??

But on 911 there was no wind load. But suddenly, the mast dropped ... before ... anything else happened to the tower! Very strange!

"Before anything else happened to the tower..."??

Apparently, you consider "a plane crashing into the towers, massive damage, fires, failures, creep, progressive lean, etc" to be equivalent to "nothing", eh?

Did you say that you are allegedly a Mechanical Engineer?


With all these supports below and around - why would the mast drop BEFORE the roof line started to drop and BEFORE any visible structure below was destroyed? ????

Perhaps because you cannot see THRU solid walls & billowing smoke?
Perhaps because you are asserting, with precisely zero basis, that "nothing has happened" to the core that you CANNOT SEE.

Answer, CD!

Better answer: Heiwa's baseless assumption about the condition of the core that he cannot see.

Better answer yet: there has been a failure in the core columns that happens a fraction of a second before the failure of the peripheral columns.

To destroy WTC 1 you had to soften the structure everywhere ...

Did you say that you are allegedly a Mechanical Engineer?

The building softened, yielded and failed at the 98th floor. The core failed a fraction of a second before the peripheral columns. What, exactly, do your alleged mechanical engineering experience tell you should happen when a couple tens of thousands of tons of the core column assembly with the antenna on top fails. Should that whole assembly simply sit there in space? Levitating, while waiting for the rest of the building to also decide to fail??

Is this what passes for Mechanical Engineering in Europe?

I am prepared to be VERY surprised, because I was under the firm impression that Europe produced some competent engineers.

... before blowing it down from top to bottom and the criminals blow off the mast supports a little too early.

Of course they did. With what, Mr. Mechanical Engineer?? Silent explosives? Mini-nukes?? Thermate?? Thermite?? Perhaps termites??

What percent of columns per floor did they have to "remove" in order for the upper part to descend as fast as it did, Heiwa?
100%?
75%?
50%?
25%?

Please, your best estimate.

Of course, they had planned the crime for years before and in every detail ... but they messed up. The mast went down too early! Another smoking gun ... among many others.

Exactly how much sooner than the roofline did the antenna begin to fall?

One problem! These criminals are armed to the teeth with guns not yet smoking. Beware.

And yet, somehow, you sit over there, in France, fat, dumb & happy (a description properly "center weighted") & not "disappeared".

Do you think that the US's deep, dark spook network, out assassination squads, find the fine country of France to be "impenetrable"?? And you sit there, exposing the biggest, darkest secret out country has, with calm "sange froid".

How mysterious...

If you'd like, I could bring your postings to the attention of the NSA over here. Then perhaps we could have a real, objective experiment as to whether or not you are REALLY threatening the reputation of the US for history. I am quite certain that Misters Jones, Jones, Fetzer, Griffin, Barret, Ryan, Harrit, et al, will provide you with quite functional "coal mine canaries".

tom
 
Tom, you are a nice guy who really does post things that are relevant to the conversation, but can I give you a tip. Stop saying please to loonies, it a sign of weakness in their eyes and allows them some form of false credibility.

BTW, well done for your clear, concise posts.
SoG,

You guys have had your fun with him. Why shouldn't I have a turn?? :D

I was actually able to get him to answer a couple of direct questions a bit back. That made it trivial to pick his nonsense apart.

Paying attention to the maturity level, I'm going for the "CHICKEN, BWAAAACK BWAAAACK BWAAAAACK!" approach.

Ya never know...

But I suspect that you're right. We are clearly close to the end.

Can I torment him JUST A LITTLE MORE?? Please, Please, PLEEEEEAAAASSSEE??

tk
 
Bill Smith,

I attempted to honestly interpret Heiwa's moving goal posts as:
Heiwa's objections seem to be based on two assertions:

1. That, once components of the upper Part C have been wrenched from their connections and turned into rubble, they lose their ability to destroy components in the lower Part A.
.
.
You accused me of constructing a strawman argument in order to deceitfully misrepresent Heiwa's opinion:
Assertion 1:Heiwa never said that the rubble 'loses' it's ability to destroy components in the lower part A'. He said that the forces would be subdivided into lots of smaller forces seperated by time. Not the same thing at all and a pure strawman
.
.
Heiwa just posted:
According BLGB part B is rubble. In my opinion rubble (part B) can not one-way crush down anything but Bazant, Greening and Benson (and various other clowns) think so.


Care to withdraw your accusation?

Tom
 
Heiwa,



A "bending moment in the blue platform ... is transmitted to the core & perimeter columns as SHEAR forces"???

Are you REALLY sure you want to stick with that statement??



tom

Yes, of course. Simple beam theory! A BM applied to the platform produces SF in attached beams, etc. But it is off topic, I am rude to say. Be polite and start a new thread about it.
 
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Heiwa,




The building softened, yielded and failed at the 98th floor. The core failed a fraction of a second before the peripheral columns. What, exactly, do your alleged mechanical engineering experience tell you should happen when a couple tens of thousands of tons of the core column assembly with the antenna on top fails. Should that whole assembly simply sit there in space? Levitating, while waiting for the rest of the building to also decide to fail??

Is this what passes for Mechanical Engineering in Europe?

I am prepared to be VERY surprised, because I was under the firm impression that Europe produced some competent engineers.


tom

Well, that's your opinion about initiation. Plenty of simultaneous, structural failures. So what happens then? Part C drops and impacts part A and global collapse ensued according NIST, right? Try to design a structure as per The Heiwa Challenge rules (see post #1) that behaves like that and we can discuss further.
 
Yes, of course. Simple beam theory! A BM applied to the platform produces SF in attached beams, etc. But it is off topic, I am rude to say. Be polite and start a new thread about it.
.
Heiwa,

No need for a new thread. There really is no discussion required. This really IS simple beam theory.

If you have a pure moment at the base of the antenna, then the Hat Truss will impart purely compressive & tensile loads to the top of the building. As shown below.

(I've shown 7 attachment points between the hat truss & the roof of the tower. This is illustrative of how these loads would be generated to resist a moment.)

There would be zero shear load resulting from a bending moment.

125524a225c0ee2a4e.jpg



Now, if you had a side load on the Hat Truss, then you would get shear loads on the attachments between the truss & the roof of the tower. As shown below.

125524a225d973d5e0.jpg


I gotta tell you, Heiwa, when you say stuff like this, I start wondering about your credentials. Where did you say you got your degree?

tom
 
Bill Smith,

I attempted to honestly interpret Heiwa's moving goal posts as:

.
.
You accused me of constructing a strawman argument in order to deceitfully misrepresent Heiwa's opinion:

.
.
Heiwa just posted:



Care to withdraw your accusation?

Tom

No retraction for at least two reasons.

1. This is a later statement from heiwa and thus does not apply to any statement I made preceding it. So my assertion of your strawman at the time you constructed it stands.

2. Heiwa may have only said 'rubble' but he obviouly meant 'rubble layer' as is made clear by the fact hat he says 'rubble (part B)'. 'Part B' is of course Bazant's famous rubble layer.
You had better go do a refresher at strawman school T.
 
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.
Heiwa,

No need for a new thread. There really is no discussion required. This really IS simple beam theory.

If you have a pure moment at the base of the antenna, then the Hat Truss will impart purely compressive & tensile loads to the top of the building. As shown below.

(I've shown 7 attachment points between the hat truss & the roof of the tower. This is illustrative of how these loads would be generated to resist a moment.)

There would be zero shear load resulting from a bending moment.

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/125524a225c0ee2a4e.jpg[/qimg]


Now, if you had a side load on the Hat Truss, then you would get shear loads on the attachments between the truss & the roof of the tower. As shown below.

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/125524a225d973d5e0.jpg[/qimg]

I gotta tell you, Heiwa, when you say stuff like this, I start wondering about your credentials. Where did you say you got your degree?

tom

Good drawings T. Can you make another one giving an idea how the pure compresive force of the 30-storey antenna broke through the hat truss when it started on it's downwards journey before any other signs of collapse began including a stationary roofline ?
 
.
Heiwa,

No need for a new thread. There really is no discussion required. This really IS simple beam theory.

If you have a pure moment at the base of the antenna, then the Hat Truss will impart purely compressive & tensile loads to the top of the building. As shown below.

(I've shown 7 attachment points between the hat truss & the roof of the tower. This is illustrative of how these loads would be generated to resist a moment.)

There would be zero shear load resulting from a bending moment.

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/125524a225c0ee2a4e.jpg[/qimg]


Now, if you had a side load on the Hat Truss, then you would get shear loads on the attachments between the truss & the roof of the tower. As shown below.

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/125524a225d973d5e0.jpg[/qimg]

I gotta tell you, Heiwa, when you say stuff like this, I start wondering about your credentials. Where did you say you got your degree?

tom

Funny pictures. But they do not make any sense.

Let's start with the mast! A lateral wind load is applied on it. Result is of course a shear force in the mast - 0 at top, max at bottom. This shear force/lateral load produces a bending moment at the bottom of the mast, that is rotating the hat truss. The shear force also produces an axial force in the hat truss.

The bending moment applied to the centre of the hat truss is transmitted to the supports at the perimeter walls. In order to transmit the bending moment in the hat truss, a shear force is required.

The mast has also a mass and applies a vertical force on the hat truss. This vertical force is transmitted to the perimeter wall supports also as a shear force in the hat truss. The vertical force also produces a bending moment in the hat truss. Etc, etc. Simple beam analysis.
 
Funny pictures. But they do not make any sense.

Let's start with the mast! A lateral wind load is applied on it. Result is of course a shear force in the mast - 0 at top, max at bottom. This shear force/lateral load produces a bending moment at the bottom of the mast, that is rotating the hat truss. The shear force also produces an axial force in the hat truss.

The bending moment applied to the centre of the hat truss is transmitted to the supports at the perimeter walls. In order to transmit the bending moment in the hat truss, a shear force is required.

The mast has also a mass and applies a vertical force on the hat truss. This vertical force is transmitted to the perimeter wall supports also as a shear force in the hat truss. The vertical force also produces a bending moment in the hat truss. Etc, etc. Simple beam analysis.

The shear forces are transmitted to the perimeter columns as they are to the outriggers on a mobile crane ?
 
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The shear forces are transmitted to the perimeter columns as they are to the outriggers on a mobile crane ?

With the difference that the outriggers on a mobile crane are just resting on ground and cannot transmit a bending moment. The hat truss beams can transmit a bending moment to the perimeter column. The difference affect the shear force in the outrigger/beam.
 
*snort*

The whole section is blown apart in the centre of New York, on live TV and nobody notices, apart from you after watching a youtube video.

Yep I can see why everybody takes you seriously.:rolleyes:

It goes very quick, when the whole upper part C is blown apart as seen on clips below!
WTC1x.jpg

One moment the upper part is intact, a second later it is totally destroyed ... while the lower part is ... intact.
A moment later the lower part is also destroyed from top to bottom (the famous fountain of debris) ... but not by any dropping, one-way crushing down by the upper part.
The upper part is already destroyed, roof, hat truss included ... and have become smoke and dust.
 
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It goes very quick, when the whole upper part C is blown apart as seen on clips below!
http://heiwaco.tripod.com/WTC1x.jpg
One moment the upper part is intact, a second later it is totally destroyed ... while the lower part is ... intact.
A moment later the lower part is also destroyed from top to bottom (the famous fountain of debris) ... but not by any dropping, one-way crushing down by the upper part.
The upper part is already destroyed, roof, hat truss included ... and have become smoke and dust.


Yep sure it was pal, completely destroyed in the centre of New York while being broadcast live.

Sure it was.:rolleyes:

Of course since you've now made this claim, I guess it is beyond my wildest imagination that you will back it up and explain just how much explosives were needed to destroy the entire uppers section, roof and hat truss. And why this "blowing Up" wasn't heard across New York.

That's what ? some 15 stoires, the top hat and the roof, right? Just blown up. Tell us oh great guru how nobody noticed other than you ?
 
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Funny pictures. But they do not make any sense.

Let's start with the mast! A lateral wind load is applied on it. Result is of course a shear force in the mast - 0 at top, max at bottom. This shear force/lateral load produces a bending moment at the bottom of the mast, that is rotating the hat truss. The shear force also produces an axial force in the hat truss.

Are you taking the guy wires into account? They take the majority of the wind load.
 
Are you taking the guy wires into account? They take the majority of the wind load.

The purpose of guy wires, if fitted, is to transmit wind loads on the mast from their connections to their supports ... on the roof. Wires can only transmit tensile forces and can thus be included in a beam analysis with that restriction. Problem is that the wire must be in tension. If it is slack it doesn't do anything. A wire cannot transmit any bending moment for obvious reasons. Guy wires, as elements, are permitted in any The Heiwa Challenge design. Pls submit your design!
 
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