Sean Hannity offers to be waterboarded for charity

[Cicero]

Because they rise to the bait of the torture lovers who try to frame the debate as one of effectiveness. Further, it's quite useful to undercut the torture lovers arguments by point out that, infact, it's utterly ineffective.

But that's not the point. Torture is morally and ethically wrong. Simple as.

Since when has the U.S. been constrained by morals and ethics in fighting their enemies? If you believe that the three detainees waterboarded by the CIA is the worst breech of U.S. morals and ethics in the last 70 years then you live in a cloistered world.

"In a previously undisclosed private memo, President Obama's intelligence director told colleagues that enhanced interrogation techniques used by the Bush administration yielded important information that helped America deal with the threat of terrorism.

"High value information came from interrogations in which those methods were used and provided a deeper understanding of the al Qa'ida organization that was attacking this country," the Director of National Intelligence, retired Admiral Dennis Blair, told colleagues in the two-page memo April 16.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.co...-said-interrogations-yielded-high-value-info/

 

[Marc39]

Because they rise to the bait of the torture lovers who try to frame the debate as one of effectiveness. Further, it's quite useful to undercut the torture lovers arguments by point out that, infact, it's utterly ineffective.

But that's not the point. Torture is morally and ethically wrong. Simple as.

In general, if torture were ineffective, its practice would have ended long ago. Torturers must be doing someting right.

 

[Uzzy]

You missed out an important little section of that memo, Cicero.

"The information gained from these techniques was valuable in some instances, but there is no way of knowing whether the same information could have been obtained through other means," Blair said in the prepared statement. "The bottom line is these techniques have hurt our image around the world, the damage they have done to our interests far outweighed whatever benefit they gave us and they are not essential to our national security."

Seems like that guy knows what he's talking about.

 

[Marc39]

You missed out an important little section of that memo, Cicero.

"The information gained from these techniques was valuable in some instances, but there is no way of knowing whether the same information could have been obtained through other means," Blair said in the prepared statement. "The bottom line is these techniques have hurt our image around the world, the damage they have done to our interests far outweighed whatever benefit they gave us and they are not essential to our national security."

Seems like that guy knows what he's talking about.

Theoretics is fine for discussion, but, the real world is a whole different kettle of fish.

 

[Cicero]

You missed out an important little section of that memo, Cicero.

"The information gained from these techniques was valuable in some instances, but there is no way of knowing whether the same information could have been obtained through other means," Blair said in the prepared statement. "The bottom line is these techniques have hurt our image around the world, the damage they have done to our interests far outweighed whatever benefit they gave us and they are not essential to our national security."

Seems like that guy knows what he's talking about.

I believe "utterly ineffective" were your words to describe waterboarding. Where did Blair say that?

 

[Bob Klase]

oh, and btw, the only people to be ever convicted of treason in the USA, are ALL Jews.

It's really amazing how often you can learn new things here at JREF. For example, I never knew Benedict Arnold was Jewish.

Robert Henry Best and Martin James Monti could be Jewish- can't really tell just from their names. But Iva Ikuko Toguri D'Aquino (Tokoyo Rose) certainly didn't have a Jewish name and I'm amazed to learn that she was Jewish. I guess that's why she was working for Imperial Japan rather than the Nazi's.

 

[Uzzy]

I believe "utterly ineffective" were your words to describe waterboarding. Where did Blair say that?

He didn't. I disagree with him on the effectiveness of torture, though I do agree with him on his points that it's not needed for American National Security, and that they damaged American interests.

 

[Dr Adequate]

Hellooo ... Cicero?

Tell us whether or not you approve of torturing suspects with lighted cigarettes.

Me, I'm against it. How about you?

* crickets *

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

In general, if torture were ineffective, its practice would have ended long ago. Torturers must be doing someting right.

Well, it is effective at satiating sadistic tendencies. Anything else...

 

[Marc39]

Well, it is effective at satiating sadistic tendencies. Anything else...

Or, sating those of terorrists.

Allah is great.

 

[Whiplash]

Well, it is effective at satiating sadistic tendencies. Anything else...

Was anyone, who ever engaged in torture, all throughout history, ever doing so for reasons other than sadism? And if so, were any of them effective at gaining information, ever?

Again, I'm not here to argue for torture. I just continue to be irritated by the ongoing attempt to paint it as only being a tool for sadists to hurt people, and never having been effective at all, ever, ever ever ever! I think that's being quite dishonest.

I think Marc is right in part. People stop doing things that don't work. If tickling people till they confessed worked, we'd do that. If torture really was so completely ineffective, it wouldn't continue, except in the cases of pscyhopaths and sadists. Maybe you guys think the world is brimming with these people or something. But I don't. I think they make a very small percentage of people over all, and even less so are they people in power.

 

[Matthew Best]

I think Marc is right in part. People stop doing things that don't work.

I pray to God you are right about that.

 

[Thunder]

In general, if torture were ineffective, its practice would have ended long ago. Torturers must be doing someting right.

Women used to be tortured into confessing that they were indeed witches. The torture worked.....and the women confessed. Then they were burned alive.

I guess torture works, huh Marc?

 

[Marc39]

Women used to be tortured into confessing that they were indeed witches. The torture worked.....and the women confessed. Then they were burned alive.

I guess torture works, huh Marc?

Why are you stalking me? I'm a married man. To a woman.

 

[Whiplash]

I pray to God you are right about that.

I admit, that is a fair point, and well made.

But at the same time, I mean reputable people of intellect. Doctors learned long ago that leeches didn't do anything useful and stopped using them (I am aware, however, of the recent comeback of them in terms of promoting blood flow to reconnected tissue).

Sure there are many nuts that do things over and over that don't work.
Sure there a probably nut jobs in medicine who still use leeches.

But at least there this provable, scientific data to show that such techiques don't work. I'm holding that there is not equivlant, undenialbe evidence that torture doesn't ever work, ever.

Women used to be tortured into confessing that they were indeed witches. The torture worked.....and the women confessed. Then they were burned alive.

I guess torture works, huh Marc?

You are bringing up extreme examples of where torture was completely uncalled for and hurtful, and uncessary. The worst case scenario and strongest admonition of torture.

I don't think it's fair to keep going to that side of the argument, anymore so than I was when I was chastised for suggesting that torturing someone who knows the location of a bomb if valid. Someone screemed at me "there is no bomb, stop making that argument!". I think this cuts both ways. I see people on both sides who are painting with too broad of a brush. It's completely black and white thinking on a subject that definately has some gray area. Some see it as wrong, period, and can't even seem to admit it's ever been effective. And others seem reluctant to admonish stuff that is heinous and should be. I don't understand why this is so polarizing.

 

[thaiboxerken]

You don't because your mind is made up and you choose not to.

Wrong. I await actual evidence instead of the testimonies of those who torture people.

You mean, like the army manual? Lots of luck. When your life is at stake, fine, don't make policy decisions for my life.

Any means to an end, even if the means hasn't been shown to be reliable, right?

 

[thaiboxerken]

In general, if torture were ineffective, its practice would have ended long ago. Torturers must be doing someting right.

Wow... do you actually think before you post? Your argument is void of any logic or reason. Just because something still is in practice doesn't mean it actually works, just look at homeopathy and reiki healing as other examples of unreliable/ineffective methods that are still in use. Do you have a logically sound argument to support your pro-torture position?

 

[Marc39]

Wow... do you actually think before you post?

My mind is so quick and well-calibrated, I can do both simultaneously. I see you're as astonished...as I am.

Your argument is void of any logic or reason. Just because something still is in practice doesn't mean it actually works, just look at homeopathy and reiki healing as other examples of unreliable/ineffective methods that are still in use. Do you have a logically sound argument to support your pro-torture position?

My doctor is a holistic physician with patients from around the world, so, you probably should use another analogy. A for effort, though.

 

[Thunder]

My mind is so quick and well-calibrated

 

[thaiboxerken]

My doctor is a holistic physician with patients from around the world, so, you probably should use another analogy. A for effort, though.

So you actually base your lifestyle on logical fallacy, that's fine. I prefer to base mine off of evidence-based methodology. Reiki and homeopathy are BS and don't work, they are ineffective and unreliable. So is torture. There is no scientific evidence to support the position that any of those methods are reliable.

FYI, your logical fallacy is this, it's an appeal to tradition. Just because something is old and still being used, doesn't mean it actually works.