Amway TV ad

[icerat]

In the case of Amway, yes, this passive income is the result of the pyramid scheme in action.

NOTE: By your definition of "pyramid scheme", a definition that fits no known official or legal or dicitionary definition.

No, I've made numerous mention of the products being "decent" in general. I've also seen people make a strong case for the Amway version of some products being grotesquely over priced and over rated.

OK, so it's not that they're crap, you just think their bad value?
(note: there's been how many price comparisons so far on this site showing the products are priced as good or better than many competitors?? It's been at least a dozen different products now ....)

And that's what makes it a pyramid scheme, because people by products that are bad value?

Tell me, why do people keep ordering these products of bad value?

You'd think if they were bad value, many people would return them for a full refund wouldn't you?

But they don't

You'd think if they were bad value, nobody would keep ordering them, wouldn't you?

But many do

You'd think if they were bad value, that competitors in the market place would target that, and the brand would fail, wouldn't you?

Yet 50 years later, and some of the top brands in their categories

I could go on ... still, sooner or later a rational person has to examine their assumptions, don't you think?

Fact: Amway is a wholesaler. The IBO's operate like "stores". This is the only way Amway can continue to operate legally.

So Deloitte Touche, one of the biggest accounting firms in the world, who listed Amway as a "Global Power in Retailing", has been conned?

I linked to this before, but you apparently didn't read it, as it outlines what a "retail sale" is, and you don't appear to know what it is - Myth: It's a pyramid if most products are bought by ibos

And what the heck do you mean "this is the only way Amway can operate legally?"

I never made any statement to the contrary. Nor do I can one way or the other what or how many awards they may have won.

I've no idea how many they've won either. I did however provide you with a link to a page that lists over 100 awards and recognitions just from the last few years, most of which include supporting links for you to verify the information.

So you CAN know Amway has won many awards, you just CHOOSE not research it.

I never said they didn't. Nor do I care. I would like to know if "N21" offers the same "100% satisfaction" quartantee. If I'm not happy with ther "tools" and "seminars" will they refund me money?

Yup. Terms vary a little depending on the product. Got a full refund for a seminar ticket for a downline a few months ago actually. No problem.

Really though, back to Amway. Don't you think if a company offered bad value products, AND consumers could get ALL their money back, and not have to pay any shipping fees ... don't you think it unlikely that such a company would survive 50 years? Seriously?

50 years and continue to grow (75 years if you include Nutrilite history!), yet you think it's based on a flawed model that scams people.

Any other companies that you think are fraudulent that have been around so long?

I don't disagree. Nor do I care. This has nothing to do with why I think people should avoid Amway like the plague.

....

Don't care, not a factor.

Sorry? The only real basis you've given for Amway being fraudulent is that you think the products are effectively unmarketable and people only by them cause they've some how been conned.

And now you say you "don't care" about evidence of the quality of the product, and consumer demand for the product?

I guess that does describe your position. You "don't care" about the evidence, you know what you know and damned if a little thing like facts is going to get in the way!!

Don't care, not a factor. Buy all the Amway you like. Just don't ask me to sell it or think I will allow anyone I know to sell it either.

Wow ... and you say WE have undue influence ... yet YOU get to decide what people you know can do or not do!!

No, that would make it illegal. Although I will admit this is something I've learned from this thread, it has nothing to do with my change of mind.

Please read the "MYTH" link above. While in my opinion it would make it a dumb business, having everyone involved in the opportunity does NOT make it illegal. The FTC has explictly stated that.

No, we've established that a majority of members get suckered into Amway on the premise they will get a good deal on a great product.

No, we haven't established that at all. I'd actually consider it more than possible that many, perhaps even a majority, TRY the products at least partly because they're also interested in the business opportunity. Clearly if the products ARE crap then the model won't work. Many people, for whatever reason, decide not to pursue the business opportunity but decide they like the products and keep purchasing them. It's much like marketing any product with the idea of "loyalty cards" or "win a prize" or "get a discount with this company" etc etc. Marketing the business opportunity by definition also markets the products.

If the majority aren't attending, this makes the number attending stick out even further in my mind.

Ok, so all these others purchasing products without attending ... this "undue influence" you've read about causing them to buy is working how exactly? Do they need tinfoil hats?

I don't think they seem to exert overt influence, I've heard (or read) people attest to this.

And I quote re this "undue influence"/cult claims from author and behavioural psychologist Dr Shad Helmstetter, who studied Amway for 6 years -

"Working in the field of human behavior, I've studied the cults for many years. The Amway business is the opposite of cult psychology."

With regard to other allegations of Amway being a cult, he replied in an interview -

"The old myth that Amway is a cult is supported only by people who are either misinformed or uninformed. I would like to examine their research."

I corresponded with both Rick Ross and Steve Hassan on their Amway pages and both of them admitted that they had not done any research at all into Amway, they were basing their claims on emails they'd received. Talk about self-selecting sample bias! Also interesting to note that virtually every email they received was from people who'd been involved with the one group and it's offshoots, a minority of Amway.

My opinion isn't based in these so called facts. My opinion is based in your robotic response,

My "robotic" response ... many you have experience with some pretty damn sophisticated robots ....

I'd suggest any "roboticness" comes from the fact you're doing little more than spout the same old "robotic" discredit claims I've heard a hundred times before.

testimony I've read here and other places on the net, my own limited experience with Amway and other MLM's, and the "facts" about these "networks" that are part in parcel with the Amway "culture".

*What* Amway culture? How do you get a "culture" when there are huge numbers of sub-groups that never have a thing to do with each other? The idea is absurd.

I'm not telling people to not buy Amway products. In fact, I'm telling them to pay full price! Just don't get suckered into trying to get a discount, or making money off it.

Oh yeah ... that'd be dumb ... getting sucked into buying stuff you wanted, cheaper, or heaven forbid, making money! How bad could that be!

 

[NewtonTrino]

The level of spin that Icerat is trying to pull here boggles my mind.

 

[icerat]

1. Amway isn't really a retailer. For example P&G sells more stuff at retail then Amway but they use many different stores to do it. Under an apples to apples comparison Amway would be looked at as the manufacturer (still not small btw) and the retailers are the distributors. The definition of retailer doesn't make sense if the IBO's are their own businesses.

In some countries Amway outsells P&G. That aside, your partially correct - in the modern setup it depends on how you account for things. Virtually all IBOs order directly from Amway. If they are NOT actively building a business (majority), then they are a retail customer of Amway. Indeed, depending on the jurisdiction, in this situation Amway is responsible for paying the retail sales tax.

If an IBO is actively building the business, then they can consider self-purchases a retail sale from their business, and from Amway's perspective they've made a wholesale sale.

2. Big deal. They have a huge product line and have been around for a long time. Does anyone even care about this? I agree they make competent soap, vitamins etc. Personally I'm not a fan of their products but soap is soap.

The discussion with 3bodyproblem, and in particular his view it's a pyramid, is based around the notion there is no legitimate demand for the products.

4. The catholic church has been around for almost 2k years. I guess I better join up.

Your personal view of the catholic church aside, there is little doubt there is "demand for the product".

5. Fantastic. This seems to be an area (along with cosmetics) where people are willing to pay high prices. Even if the vitamins are the best in the world it doesn't mean the business model makes sense.

Given they outsell the next competitor almost 3:1, it would appear the business model works, whether you think it makes sense or not.

I think it makes perfect sense for high margin products that require more customer education.

6/7. LOL. I'll believe that when I start seeing some real advertising for it like they do for all other makeup. Seriously, people aren't seeking out Artistry makeup unless they are in the biz.

What do you want to see? The many Artistry commercials that were shown on the Artistry sponsored Tina Turner tour throughout the US? The Sandra Bullock Artistry billboard that's been up in the centre of Sydney? The Artistry Experience tour bus that's been travelling around the US? The Artistry sponsorships of fashion parades in various countries around the world, including the US, UK, and South Africa? The Artistry sponsorships of movies in Russia? The Artistry sponsorship of the Canadian Ice Skating team and Canadian Championships? The Artistry promotions running in fashion and style magazines?

If "real" advertising is what makes something legitimate to you, then there's plenty to be found.

8/9. Which is fine. I agree people can sign up and buy at Amway wholesale. So what? I'm more interested in the income of active people anyway.

Great, then don't include inactive people when trying to establish what kind of incomes are available.

10. You claimed 30% of N21 right? My experience has been that even if people aren't buying much product that they want to pretend they are building the business and are still interested so they will continue to buy tapes, go to the occasional function etc. without getting anywhere volume wise. It's simply easier to sell the dream downline than it is to get them to actually build a profitable business.

Not my experience at all. I have people throughout my business in 4 different countries that don't buy a single tool or go to a single function (even free ones) yet still regularly buy products.

This is one of the very positive benefits of actually teaching IBOs about the products - once they learn about them and use them, they continue to buy them even if they decide not to pursue the business opportunity. Groups that focus entirely on network building, and push people to buy the products so as to "be loyal to your own business ... blah ... blah ... blah" ... they've given people no reason to buy the products except for the business. So if they stop with the business, then they stop buying products.

Dumb business. You do all that work and lose them as customers because you never did such a simple and obvious thing.

Fortunately most groups are starting to realise this and the "product doesn't matter" guys are slowly fading in to history.

Of course this brings up one of the big lies which is that you don't make money for recruiting. You might not but as soon as they buy their first CD or go to their first function your upline is making a nice incremental profit. Much more than their cut of any product sales to this new distributor.

Well ... you're still not making money from recruiting, you're making it because they bought a product ... albeit through a different business and compensation plan. I entirely agree there's a problem here especially if the tool compensation plan is unbalanced with comparison to the amway compensation plan. In N21 a Diamond will typically get between 2.5%-5% of the sale of a CD to a downline platinum. On that same downline they'd get at least 4% on the sale of an Amway product - so most of the time the Amway product is more profitable. Now, the "tools" profit can go as high as 27.5% on a sale to a personal group IBO, but the Amway profit can go as high as 32% (Might be 34/36 not sure) on sale of an Amway product.

As you can see though, if you for example didn't compensate all Platinums or Emeralds, or changed the rates around a bit, or tried to have your own little individual "Diamond system" then you're exactly right - the profit on the tools is better than the profit on the products. Do that and you're asking for trouble. And that's exactly what happened in a certain group and it's offshoots (that you choose not to name)

Again this is how the real money is made for the kingpins. Amyway itself takes a nice cut of the product and we have a nice symbiosis going here. It's actually realy smart scam.

No it's not. Running like that will predictably end up in all sorts of lawsuits and reputation issues and you end up with the kind of discussions we're having here. Might work short-term but inevitably you wreck your business. As Rich DeVos said in recent interviews, given the time over again he'd be much harder in policing the field and what they're doing.

It's going to take time, but my monitoring of "internet complaints" shows a big decrease in disaffected IBOs over the past decade. There's more complaints on the 'net from folk involved in the 90s than there is for the 00s - which given the 'net really didn't take off until the 00s is a pretty surprising figure. There's still people doing dumb things, but it's a lot fewer than it used to be. The corp has kicked out a lot of the bad players, a number of the others have retired, and everyone has to play by the new rules of accreditation. Unfortunately, the internet doesn't forget and these older stories will stay around to haunt Amway for a long time to come.

 

[NewtonTrino]

As you can see though, if you for example didn't compensate all Platinums or Emeralds, or changed the rates around a bit, or tried to have your own little individual "Diamond system" then you're exactly right - the profit on the tools is better than the profit on the products. Do that and you're asking for trouble. And that's exactly what happened in a certain group and it's offshoots (that you choose not to name)

I have named them above. Dex/Britt started the scam and others (N21, WWDB etc etc) are just using variations on it. You claim N21 is less of scam because the diamonds make less % profit. First off I dispute that they make any less money (I don't think you have access to the information about how ALL of the tools money is distributed, there are bonuses above and beyond a straight discount).

If you know so much about how much the big pins make on tools can you explain the breakdown for function profits? Functions are unbelievable money makers.

 

[icerat]

You still misunderstand. I did not judge. I counted.

Ok, now I may have been merely skeptical of your estimate, but I really don't believe your claim to have counted them - you individually counted 70,000 seats?

At one second a seat it would have taken you nearly 20 hours.

 

[NewtonTrino]

Ok, now I may have been merely skeptical of your estimate, but I really don't believe your claim to have counted them - you individually counted 70,000 seats?

At one second a seat it would have taken you nearly 20 hours.

Seriously? Give me a break Icerat. You're such a literalist.

So what if his count is wrong and it's only 50,000 or even less. Where does the money GO?

You are so disingenuous. When you've for a dream the facts don't count right? What a sucker you are for falling for this so hard.

 

[icerat]

I have named them above.

You have NOT named the groups you have worked with. You've declined to do so.

Dex/Britt started the scam and others (N21, WWDB etc etc) are just using variations on it. You claim N21 is less of scam because the diamonds make less % profit. First off I dispute that they make any less money (I don't think you have access to the information about how ALL of the tools money is distributed, there are bonuses above and beyond a straight discount).

Believe it or not, unlike some here, I don't just pull numbers out of my a**. I have the tool rebate schedules for platinum and above. When it's volume based it's not that much info.

If you know so much about how much the big pins make on tools can you explain the breakdown for function profits? Functions are unbelievable money makers.

Weekend Seminar Ticket Rebate Schedule, Emerald and above
0-49 $-
50-149 5.00
150-249 10.00
250-499 15.00
500+ 20.00

From my source, (see, you're not the only one who "knows people") -

Note that these schedule work like the bonus brackets of Amway so a Diamond earning at the WES 250 bracket is likely "paying out" to a couple of Emeralds and while the Diamond might net the $15 per person on their personal group is is possible that they net $10, $5 or even $0 in their downline Emerald group based on when they fall in the brackets.

Rest of the profits (if any) belongs to N21.

 

[icerat]

Seriously? Give me a break Icerat. You're such a literalist.

He said it, not me

So what if his count is wrong and it's only 50,000 or even less. Where does the money GO?

See above, I already acknowledged this was a pointless trivial argument

You are so disingenuous. When you've for a dream the facts don't count right? What a sucker you are for falling for this so hard.

Are there you go with the trite Yager platitudes. I think I've heard that "facts don't count" line, apparently a favourite in the Yager group, just once in my life. Yet the number of times folk like you repeat it ad nauseum, as if it's something I go to sleep to ... dear, oh, dear ... talk about "robotic responses".

Facts count. That's why I keep providing you with them. Shame you don't think they count.

 

[NewtonTrino]

Actually I think the facts are quite clear.

Facts:
1) Millions of dollars a year are pumped into tools.
2) Those higher up in the pyramid are the only ones that can profit from them.
3) It's not clear to the downline exactly where the money goes.
4) Icerat is perfectly fine with this.

 

[Furcifer]

OK, so it's not that they're crap, you just think their bad value?
(note: there's been how many price comparisons so far on this site showing the products are priced as good or better than many competitors?? It's been at least a dozen different products now ....)

iCook TM 12-in. Nonstick Frypan with Tempered Glass Lid $215.99 CDN. - Horrible Value. Last I bought was Analon, an anodized professional grade, no-stick, heavy clad aluminum. The 12" high side saute with lid and helper handle was $30 (a very good deal, and well below "retail") A way better grade and quality of pan. 7X more expensive for less at Amway

J.A. Henckels 23-Piece Flatware Set -$83.99- Horrbile value. This same flatware set sells for $19.99 CDN at Winnners. I'm not sure what Henckels retail on this set is, but it's not much more than what Amway is asking. This particular set is not Henckels best quality. Last I bought was Cambridge Silversmiths "Squiggle" 45- piece for $39.99 at Meijer's in the states. It's a quality flatware set with a nice heavy feel in the hand.(used in the Jim Carrey movie "How The Grinch Stole Christmas", the Who's dinner set, lol) They recommend using non-citrus based detergents for washing. I switched but still got some very tiny black pits in the finish on a few knives. I called Cambridge and told them about it, they sent me a replacement set free of charge, no questions asked. An entire set. A bigger, higher quality set at a much more reasonable price.

XLP™ Fuel System Cleaner, Diesel, 4/ 3.78L $294.05- Horrbile deal, even at clearance web deal pricing. Similar products run as high as $70 bucks a gallon retail, but I see a guy on ebay is selling Redline for $25 a gallon.

TOLSOMTM Shave Gel- $11.70 CDN - Horrbile value. I like the Nivea sensitive skin, $3.49 for 7 oz. (200g). It goes on sale for $1.99, that's when I get it.

Smartgrip® Toothbrush- $22.98 CDN- I love this product description "If you like the Oral B® Indicator® toothbrush, try this!" How about I just keep with my Oral B indicator I pay $1.99 for?

NUTRILITE® Daily Multivitamin & Multimineral Supplement.- $13.56 CDN- The Shoppers has them on sale, 40% off. for $6.99 this week. I don't buy them, but if I did I'd be getting them for a better price.

Some random products I know about or have purchased recently. I could go on but you and I both know the mark-up on the Amway product is at the very least 2x what I can get a similar product for on sale, and up to 10x what I can redily find.

And what the heck do you mean "this is the only way Amway can operate legally?"

You need to take a closer look at how Amway skirted the FTC lawsuit in 1979.

So you CAN know Amway has won many awards, you just CHOOSE not research it.

I don't buy award winning products. I buy good products, if that wins them awards so be it.

Yup. Terms vary a little depending on the product. Got a full refund for a seminar ticket for a downline a few months ago actually. No problem.

Well that's good.

The only real basis you've given for Amway being fraudulent is that you think the products are effectively unmarketable and people only by them cause they've some how been conned.

I'm not saying Amway is fraudulent IR. The prices I've seen aren't great deals, something I expect from a direct marketing compnay cutting out the middle man. I don't find their prices that far out of whack either. Their MSRP is pretty much inline with other MSRP's. Their quality is on par with the rest. At the end of the day I can find better products at better prices if I put my mind to it.

What I am seeing, and what has been confirmed by numerous sources is that the nature of the Amway business lends itself to some very questionable business practises. The value in the Amway products and the opportunity it affords "entrepreneurs" is nothing like what you are trying to make it out to be. The "networks" and "groups" pushing "tools" are a blight on this otherwise mediocre business. (this says nothing about the adultery, wife swapping, mental abuse etc. claims I've read. Let's just not go there) I thought they were harmless but that isn't the case. Steering clear of them looks equally impossible (unless you just want to get a "deal" on your vitamins, if you want to make money) These networks simply take advantage of the "pyramid based" business structure Amway. I can't really fault Amway for it, the model itself really isn't the problem. What I can do is fault Amway for allowing it to continue. They haven't made it in their best interest to stop the "networks" and "groups" and "tools" detracting from their business.

Anyways, good topic and nice talking with you IR. You don't seem to be one of the slime balls out there making unrealistic promises to the unsuspecting and ignorant. I bet that's the reason you never made it to Diamond. You nice guy you. peace.

 

[Furcifer]

Ok, now I may have been merely skeptical of your estimate, but I really don't believe your claim to have counted them - you individually counted 70,000 seats?

At one second a seat it would have taken you nearly 20 hours.

Oh god IR, really, you've never been in a stadium and went "There's 50 rows with 30 seats per section, there's 1,2,3...18 sections on the lower bowl and 1,2,3...24 on the upper, that's..let's see...63 000. There's at least 10 sections of 1,2,3...20 rows with 1,2,3,4...30 seats on the main floor, that's another 6000. That's what...69 0000! "Holy crap, there's got to be at least 69 000 people here, i never realized this place was so big"

Takes about 2 minutes, depending on if you read the seat numbers and rows when you walked down the aisle (A1-30,B1-30...YY1-30,XX1-30) or if you have to count them in your section and extrapolate.

I do this all the time. Well almost all the time, it was pretty useless at the Detroit Lions games in the old Silver Dome. It was always empty and people were scattered all of the place. It's usually only worth while at full venues to bother to do a head count.

 

[icerat]

Actually I think the facts are quite clear.

Facts:

What a ridiculous red herring. This is like saying -

(1) Millions of dollars a year are pumped into books from Penguin
(2) Those higher up in the distribution pyramid (ie those that buy large volumes) are the only ones that can profit from them
(3) It's not clear to the downline distributors exactly where all that money to Penguin goes
(4) Yup, I'm perfectly fine with that. It's normal business.

 

[icerat]

Oh god IR, really, you've never been in a stadium and went "There's 50 rows with 30 seats per section, there's 1,2,3...18 sections on the lower bowl and 1,2,3...24 on the upper, that's..let's see...63 000. There's at least 10 sections of 1,2,3...20 rows with 1,2,3,4...30 seats on the main floor, that's another 6000. That's what...69 0000! "Holy crap, there's got to be at least 69 000 people here, i never realized this place was so big"

That's not counting, that's estimating. What if every tenth seat had someone's bag on it instead of a person? You're out by 7000 people.

 

[Furcifer]

That's not counting, that's estimating. What if every tenth seat had someone's bag on it instead of a person? You're out by 7000 people.

LMFAO, yah because that's how they sell tickets, 9/10, then they keep 1 just in case. With a packed house you're not going to be off by 10%.

You're really grasping at straws here for not apparent reason.

 

[icerat]

An entire set. A bigger, higher quality set at a much more reasonable price.

I'm no expert ... how do you know it's higher quality? My mother bought an Amway cookset more than 30 years ago. She's still using it.

TOLSOMTM Shave Gel- $11.70 CDN - Horrbile value. I like the Nivea sensitive skin, $3.49 for 7 oz. (200g). It goes on sale for $1.99, that's when I get it.

How do you know it's horrible value? Funnily enough just a few minutes ago I posted on Amway Talk how my Tolsom Shave Gel seems to never run out Is it really the same as the Nivea? A couple of years ago I did a Tolsom vs Gillette comparison and found it wasn't even close to the same type of product. At the time I didn't buy Tolsom because I thought it was too expensive. Since then they've dropped the price, I learned more about it, I tried it, found it was great for my skin and discovered it seems to last forever .... great value. Sure you can get cheaper shave gels, even from Amway, but this is more than just a shave gel.

Smartgrip® Toothbrush- $22.98 CDN- I love this product description "If you like the Oral B® Indicator® toothbrush, try this!" How about I just keep with my Oral B indicator I pay $1.99 for?

Uh ... dude, that's for a pack of 12, $1.91 each at full retail, even cheaper as a member.

NUTRILITE® Daily Multivitamin & Multimineral Supplement.- $13.56 CDN- The Shoppers has them on sale, 40% off. for $6.99 this week. I don't buy them, but if I did I'd be getting them for a better price.

Shoppers had Nutrilite Daily on Sale? I doubt it.

You need to take a closer look at how Amway skirted the FTC lawsuit in 1979.

Oh please do enlighten me .... you mean the lawsuit where they judge's conclusion said -

The Amway Sales and Marketing Plan is not a pyramid plan. In less than 20 years, the respondents have built a substantial manufacturing company and an efficient distribution system, which has brought new products into the market, notably into the highly oligopolistic soap and detergents market. Consumers are benefited by this new source of supply, and have responded by remarkable brand loyalty to Amway products.

I don't buy award winning products. I buy good products, if that wins them awards so be it.

Whatever makes you happy. Pretty arrogant to think that because YOU wouldn't buy the products, others wouldn't.

I'm not saying Amway is fraudulent IR. The prices I've seen aren't great deals, something I expect from a direct marketing compnay cutting out the middle man.

Another straw man. Amway doesn't cut out the middleman, it allows people to become the middleman. At full retail, the prices you're checking, you haven't cut out any middlemen at all. At members price you cut out one, and as you build volume cut out others until your buy price is as much as 65% off the prices you're looking at.

I don't find their prices that far out of whack either. Their MSRP is pretty much inline with other MSRP's. Their quality is on par with the rest. At the end of the day I can find better products at better prices if I put my mind to it.

Virtually any product can be found cheaper somewhere else if you want to spend a lot of time looking for it. Someone has nearly always got a deal on something going. Same thing applies with Amway - Amway often has deals on, and so do invidual IBOs. I've sold the water treatment systems to retail customers for as much as 45% off the MSRP.

What I am seeing, and what has been confirmed by numerous sources is that the nature of the Amway business lends itself to some very questionable business practises.

I'd partially agree. The low barriers to entry means virtually anyone can join. Poor monitoring in the field by Amway has lead to people engaging in questionable business practises. They got spanked for this badly in the UK recently and they've admitted this is true. It's changing.

The value in the Amway products and the opportunity it affords "entrepreneurs" is nothing like what you are trying to make it out to be.

I haven't tried to "make it out" to be anything, I've just challenged various claims here that aren't supported by the facts. I believe it's a great business model and has great products. It also has plenty of inherent weaknesses.

The "networks" and "groups" pushing "tools" are a blight on this otherwise mediocre business. (this says nothing about the adultery, wife swapping, mental abuse etc. claims I've read. Let's just not go there) I thought they were harmless but that isn't the case.

I think I've made it quite clear that I absolutely agree with you on this ... for some groups. The mistake is in assuming Amway groups are homogenous. They're not. While they obviously have many similarities, when you read about "abuses" that hit the internet headlines or courts, they're virtually always from the same groups and about the same kind of things that *don't* occur in other groups. I read (and see) about "chanting" at seminars. Never experienced it in dozens of seminars in several countries. I read (and see) about political and religious speeches at seminars. Never experienced it. I read about people being "ignored" by upline if they stop purchasing tools or going to seminars. Never experienced it. I read about people being pushed to buy 2/3/4 tapes or CDs a week. Never experienced it. And on and on and on ... all this stuff that supposedly goes on at Amway seminars, and I never experienced it ....

What I can do is fault Amway for allowing it to continue. They haven't made it in their best interest to stop the "networks" and "groups" and "tools" detracting from their business.

Even Amway agrees with you here, and so do I. Again though, don't overgeneralize.

Anyways, good topic and nice talking with you IR. You don't seem to be one of the slime balls out there making unrealistic promises to the unsuspecting and ignorant. I bet that's the reason you never made it to Diamond. You nice guy you. peace.

merci. The sooner all the slime balls get cleared out the better for all of those who treat the business professionally.

 

[icerat]

LMFAO, yah because that's how they sell tickets, 9/10, then they keep 1 just in case. With a packed house you're not going to be off by 10%.

You're really grasping at straws here for not apparent reason.

It's a silly trivial, irrelevant argument. If it makes it happy - you were right, I was wrong, there were 70,000 there.

 

[NewtonTrino]

all this stuff that supposedly goes on at Amway seminars, and I never experienced it ....

Argument from incredulity?

Nobody ever said the groups are homogeneous. There is plenty of differences in what they do the general theme is the same. Some of this is just based on local culture (for example the religious angles which they've been smartly downplaying lately).

 

[icerat]

Nobody ever said the groups are homogeneous. There is plenty of differences in what they do the general theme is the same. Some of this is just based on local culture (for example the religious angles which they've been smartly downplaying lately).

lately? N21 has *never* pushed a religious angle.

How about another one of my bugbears "losers","quitters","Just Over Broke" - all kinds of things I hear are common in the B/Y and affiliates.

Just don't hear it ... and we're in 36 countries, so I wouldn't say it's a "local culture" thing. Heck, the religous stuff, the political stuff, the "luuk att mayy BIIG WAATCHHH annnd mayyyy BIIIGGGG CAARRRR -- hallaluleh praissseeee the lord jesus!!!! Oh .... and don't ya go votin for them socialllistts ...." type of crap is what killed Amway in places like the UK and France. It might work with SOME folk in the US, but it goes down like a lead brick in most of the rest of the world. Those groups, which where the only real "systems" in place back in the late 70s, went in to new markets in the 70s and early 80s with that same kind of rubbish and 30 years later Amway's still recovering there.

Nothing "local" about the damage they've caused, that's for sure.

 

[NewtonTrino]

I never said N21 pushes religion. What I'm saying is that N21 *is* a religion. Well more of a cult but they're basically the same thing.

Of course anybody reading your monotonous defensive posts is getting a lesson in this stuff which is why I continue to participate.

 

[Furcifer]

I'm no expert ... how do you know it's higher quality? My mother bought an Amway cookset more than 30 years ago. She's still using it.

Generally by weight and the durability of the non-stick coating (metal utensil safe). 18/10 stainless is pretty standard. Plastic handles, while not totally indicative of quality are usually found on the lower end stuff (the ability to go from the stove top to the oven is essential, the plastic stuff is usually good for 400F, but stoves can and do get hotter) A pan that is one piece and thick is usually better and more durable than one that is pressed together.

Is is a good product? Yes, it is a quality product that most people would be happy with, and last them a very long time (assuming the non stick is on par with the rest. I'm leaning towards this set being higher quality non-stick stainless to legitimize the price. non stick is usually aluminum, due mostly to the colour of the non stick coating and adhesion) Still, as a "deal" the 22-piece set is easily 2x the price it should be. Me?, I'd expect to pay no more than $400 for a similar set of similar quality.

How do you know it's horrible value? Funnily enough just a few minutes ago I posted on Amway Talk how my Tolsom Shave Gel seems to never run out Is it really the same as the Nivea? A couple of years ago I did a Tolsom vs Gillette comparison and found it wasn't even close to the same type of product. At the time I didn't buy Tolsom because I thought it was too expensive. Since then they've dropped the price, I learned more about it, I tried it, found it was great for my skin and discovered it seems to last forever .... great value. Sure you can get cheaper shave gels, even from Amway, but this is more than just a shave gel.

Because these products usually have 2 grades, a utility grade and a premium grade.(or regular, premium and ultra-premium) The $0.99 version and the $5.99 version, although some have a mixed grade. The manufacturers match each other step in step at these levels, you get basically the same product, with the same "additives" at every level. There's a $0.69 Crest "Classic", a $2.99 Crest "Whitening" and a $6.99 Crest "Pro Health Enamel Shield Whitening" (or what ever) Colgate is going to have the same product with a different name. Same with Gillette shave gels, there going to have a utility grade and a premium grade (although I'm not familiar with their premium grade off hand, but I'm sure it exists as a "Gillette Platinum" of "Gillette Oooober-Extreme" or some such)

Nivea and a few others offer only a premium grade product, with all the latest aloe s and vera's and tighteners and relaxers and shimmers and razor glide bump smoothers etc. Sometimes you see ultra-premiums, with $20 price tags. Sometimes they are genuine ultra-premiums, with all the latest bells and whistles. Sometimes though the ultra-premiums are actually just premiums with brand names slapped on them. "Alfred Sung" shave gel might be a premium with their scent and a $25 price tag.

Let's see the ingredients of Nivea Sensitive:

Ingredients: Water, Palmitic Acid, Triethanolamine, Oleth-20, Isopentane, Sorbitol, Mineral Oil, Isobutane, Cocamide DEA, Tocophenyl Acetate (Vitamin E), Gossypium Herbaceum (Cotton) Seed Oil, Glycine Soja (Soybean) Oil, Chamomilla Recutita (Matricaria) Flower Extract, Bisabolol, Hydroxyethylcellulose, Polyisobutene, PEG-14M, Methylparaben, Propylparaben, BHT, Fragrance

And the Tolsom:

Water (Aqua), Palmitic Acid, Triethanolamine, Isobutane, Isopentane, Sorbitol, Propylene Glycol Isostearate, Hydroxypropylcellulose, Myristamine Oxide, Fragrance, Aloe Barbadensis Leaf Juice, Lauryl Alcohol, PEG 14M, Tocopheryl Acetate, Lanolin Oil, Glycerin, Panthenol, Aloe Barbadensis Gel, Lemon (Citrus Medica Limonum) Extract, Cucumber (Cucumis Sativus) Extract, Glycoproteins, Hops Extract, Chamomile (Anthemis Noblis) Extract, Sodium Hyaluronate, Cephalins, Sodium Citrate, Disodium Cocoamphodiacetate, Butylene Glycol, Propylene Glycol, Phenoxyethanol, Methylparaben, Ethylparaben, Propylparaben, Butylparaben, Isobutylparaben, Blue #1, and Yellow # 5.


Hmmm...Pretty much the same eh? If you look up the allowable concentrations of Oleth-20 and Propelyene Glycol Isostearate, listed after the propellants and sorbitol (the key ingredient in any gel product) you will find they are in very, very small concentrations, both are known to cause cancer in high enough doses. So the essential ingredients are in the same proportions in both. The Tolsom has a bunch of "natural" ingredients and extracts. Which is great, but they simply aren't in high enough concentrations to do anything, especially in a product that is designed to be applied the scrapped from the face with a shape metal blade.

I didn't know this until just now, and I had to look up all this stuff to confirm it. And yet I knew this would be the case, as it is with most Amway products, decent products at about 2x-4x the industry rate. You could make an arguement that the Amway is an ultra-premium, but really, the stuff they are putting in is in such low concetrations it doesn't matter.

Uh ... dude, that's for a pack of 12, $1.91 each at full retail, even cheaper as a member.

Thank god, I was wondering. I swear the quantity lists as 1, because I looked when i saw the price. You must know where to look. Well decent deal if I want to buy a 1 year supply of tooth brushes.

Shoppers had Nutrilite Daily on Sale? I doubt it.

No, a similar product. You realy want me to dig up the info to compare the two products just to show you once again the constituent ingredients are the same. I suspect from what you've said and what I've seen I will find once again Amway is adding some natural extract in minute quantities.

Oh please do enlighten me .... you mean the lawsuit where they judge's conclusion said -

Look up the 70% rule.

Whatever makes you happy. Pretty arrogant to think that because YOU wouldn't buy the products, others wouldn't.

Arrogant to do some research and have found similar products at better prices?

Another straw man. Amway doesn't cut out the middleman, it allows people to become the middleman.

Oh, then it isn't a direct marketing business then is it? (yes, that was rhetorical)

Virtually any product can be found cheaper somewhere else if you want to spend a lot of time looking for it. Someone has nearly always got a deal on something going. Same thing applies with Amway - Amway often has deals on, and so do invidual IBOs. I've sold the water treatment systems to retail customers for as much as 45% off the MSRP.

No, it's called shopping. I spend my money wisely.

Oh gawd, you had to talk water treatment systems didn't you. Don't get me started on those.

I believe it's a great business model and has great products. It also has plenty of inherent weaknesses.

Great products?...that's relative and really something each customer needs to decide for themselves. Price has more to do with it than anything. At $3.99Tolsom shave gel is a great product, at $11 bucks it isn't.

...snip...Never experienced it. And on and on and on ... all this stuff that supposedly goes on at Amway seminars, and I never experienced it ....

Ok, fine. At the current level the products don't warrant the risk from what I've seen.

merci. The sooner all the slime balls get cleared out the better for all of those who treat the business professionally.

I'm not convinced Amway has any intention of doing this, but if they do more power too them. Until then I'll warn people and steer clear.