Yet more NLP BS

[remirol]

I was hoping to learn something positive about NLP here, but it seems the only voice with such claims is determined to remain schtum.

But he did drop in to make a snarky comment. So that means he's still reading the thread. Unfortunately, lacking any evidence presented, I'm going to have to say that my opinion of NLP remains unchanged as "it's all woo".

 

[JFrankA]

oh I didn't see that one coming. Congratulations on the obvious.

I think the confusion here is that no one really has a understanding of what NLP is. Its not just Erickson hypnosis and it seems that is the opinion some people have on here. The closed minded "Iknowitall" is what stops humanity and people learning and growing. That has been shown on this thread many times already

It is possible to be an open minded skeptic.

Please take no offense to this, but this is exactly the problem. Skeptics are open-minded. We start with "I don't know - please show us evidence" and then go from there.

There has been no evidence from you. None. Just telling us that we don't know then providing no evidence or even an explaination.

Okay, here's a piece of what I know from NLP that I use, and my own personal (i.e. anecdotal) experience from it:

One aspect of NLP is the hypothesis that if in a conversation, you were to tell the subject a series of facts to the subject will agree with you. There's no harm in that, because you are stating obvious facts. After a few of them, you say something that could be true, most likely is true, but not definitively true. The subject would probably agree with you, because it's most likely true. Finally, after a couple of those kinds of statements, you say something you want the subject to believe. After agreeing with you so many times, the subject would be more open to believe you and agree.

That's one hypothesis. Does it work in my stage hypnosis performances? Yes. But, again, that's a performance. The people there WANT it to work. Half my work is done already. In real life, it doesn't really work all that much.

In fact, I've noticed some commercials and some speeches by different people who employ this technique. As far as I can see, (again, this is my own observation), it doesn't work, otherwise everyone would be buying a particular brand of margarine and all other brands would be out of business.

If the subject has the desire for something to happen with you, is not thinking critically, and maybe a little confused, it might improve your chances to persuade your subject to your desires. But, for example, to pick up the hot chick in the bar who is "out of your league"? Not by a long shot.

And, (this is the point), there is no evidence otherwise. Absolutely none.

 

[Lothario]

Please take no offense to this, but this is exactly the problem. Skeptics are open-minded. We start with "I don't know - please show us evidence" and then go from there.

There has been no evidence from you. None. Just telling us that we don't know then providing no evidence or even an explaination.

Okay, here's a piece of what I know from NLP that I use, and my own personal (i.e. anecdotal) experience from it:

One aspect of NLP is the hypothesis that if in a conversation, you were to tell the subject a series of facts to the subject will agree with you. There's no harm in that, because you are stating obvious facts. After a few of them, you say something that could be true, most likely is true, but not definitively true. The subject would probably agree with you, because it's most likely true. Finally, after a couple of those kinds of statements, you say something you want the subject to believe. After agreeing with you so many times, the subject would be more open to believe you and agree.

That's one hypothesis. Does it work in my stage hypnosis performances? Yes. But, again, that's a performance. The people there WANT it to work. Half my work is done already. In real life, it doesn't really work all that much.

In fact, I've noticed some commercials and some speeches by different people who employ this technique. As far as I can see, (again, this is my own observation), it doesn't work, otherwise everyone would be buying a particular brand of margarine and all other brands would be out of business.

If the subject has the desire for something to happen with you, is not thinking critically, and maybe a little confused, it might improve your chances to persuade your subject to your desires. But, for example, to pick up the hot chick in the bar who is "out of your league"? Not by a long shot.

And, (this is the point), there is no evidence otherwise. Absolutely none.

This is what they call a yes ladder isn't it?

 

[JFrankA]

This is what they call a yes ladder isn't it?

Yes.


....that's one!

 

[MikeSun5]

My first statement was to argue the sweeping generalization that ALL NLP is worthless. That is incorrect in my experience.

Then you're going to have to relate your experience. All NLP is worthless in my experience. Your posts assume that everyone who thinks NLP is crap have no knowledge of the subject.
In my experience, NLP works on very few people. Most of the people it "worked" on had all heard of NLP and were aware of it's results/benefits.

There are many specific things that are useful to me and that have helped me enormously but they are subjects not specific to this thread.

Au contraire. A simple list of specific NLP things that you think actually work wouldn't be off topic.

The only thing I will say is that People are more likely to like you and more willing to agree with what you say if you do build a strong sense of rapport with them.

Agreed. Unfortunately, that statement doesn't exclusively apply to NLP (and if it did, it'd render a lot of their stuff obsolete). I'm with remirol on this one. Rapport building is a huge part of NLP, but building rapport doesn't require NLP. I can build rapport with someone with using a bunch of methods, but NLP claims such nonsense as matching a subject's breathing and vocal tone, or looking at their left eye with your left eye, etc. Personally, that stuff wouldn't build rapport, it would creep me out.
Actually reminds me of an Office episode where two guys shook hands for like 3 minutes because both had been trained to "never be the first to break a handshake."

 

[Senex]

I think this is typical. NLP is alternative psychology like homeopathic is alternative medicine. Skeptics, who would love to be the center of attention on an alternative website, get tossed off the alternative sites by those moderators who don't want alternative opinions to those they espouse on their site. On the JREF you only have to represent yourself as a believer in something alternative and you get to be the most popular person on the thread you are posting to. Unfortunately, alternative believers (with the exception of visionfromfeeling) quit our site when detailed questions are asked of them.

It's enough to make me feel I'm on the right side of this discussion.

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

I think this is typical. NLP is alternative psychology like homeopathic is alternative medicine. Skeptics, who would love to be the center of attention on an alternative website, get tossed off the alternative sites by those moderators who don't want alternative opinions to those they espouse on their site. On the JREF you only have to represent yourself as a believer in something alternative and you get to be the most popular person on the thread you are posting to. Unfortunately, alternative believers (with the exception of visionfromfeeling) quit our site when detailed questions are asked of them.

It's enough to make me feel I'm on the right side of this discussion.

 

[Iknoweverything]

I think this is typical. NLP is alternative psychology like homeopathic is alternative medicine. Skeptics, who would love to be the center of attention on an alternative website, get tossed off the alternative sites by those moderators who don't want alternative opinions to those they espouse on their site. On the JREF you only have to represent yourself as a believer in something alternative and you get to be the most popular person on the thread you are posting to. Unfortunately, alternative believers (with the exception of visionfromfeeling) quit our site when detailed questions are asked of them.

It's enough to make me feel I'm on the right side of this discussion.

Quit the Site ? Sorry my friend, I have been traveling. You want to know exactly what I have been doing ?. I fly to Australia on business then spend a day on the beach where I meet two nice ladies. One of the ladies I get on really well with and end up spending the night with her. I am now about to fly to NewYork for a weekend on company expenses and am meeting another lady friend there. I could go on and detail more about how much I earn and how successful and like I am as a person but I do not wish to.

I do not wish to be the center of attention on a Internet forum and I did find this initial post by accident, i find that comment particularly funny.

I could see a lot of negativity about things that I know work and I did not want someone else to come here read the negativity and be put off learning and growing.

My success and how I am liked in the REAL WORLD is a clear demonstration of what I have learned and use .

MikeSun your post is probably the only valid one I have seen and I do agree with a lot of what you have said, although not all of it. What I would like to know Mike is have you tried aspects of NLP over and over for many years and in many situations. If you have not I find it hard to accept your judgment unless you are as successful and have achieved as much as me.

I will not be back on this forum for a while as I am traveling a lot over the next few weeks, its not because I am scared of closed mind negativity or the fact that an "internet epenis" talks as if he knows better.

I do not sell NLP stuff and my business dealings are noway related to it but as I travel around I do like to make people feel better about themselves I encourage them to grow more as people and achieve as much as they can out of this one life.

To all the flame throwers I would suggest thinking about what is possible and what you can achieve in your life rather than focusing on what cannot be achieved.

As I said before if you want examples go out LEARN and TEST then LEARN and TEST some more.

Good Luck!

 

[Iknoweverything]

Yes.


....that's one!

Or Pacing and Leading


Pace Pace Pace Lead

Pace Pace Lead Lead

Pace Lead Lead Lead

Try it

 

[remirol]

I could go on and detail more about how much I earn and how successful and like I am as a person but I do not wish to.

Just as well, I wouldn't believe a word of it anyway.

I could see a lot of negativity about things that I know work and I did not want someone else to come here read the negativity and be put off learning and growing.

Ah, you _know_ they work, but you can't provide any _evidence_ for that. I see...

To all the flame throwers I would suggest thinking about what is possible and what you can achieve in your life rather than focusing on what cannot be achieved.

Odd, I've been asking you to actually tell us what _is_ possible, but you don't seem to be able to do that.

As I said before if you want examples go out LEARN and TEST then LEARN and TEST some more.

No, sorry, I'm not wasting money on garbage. Unless you can tell me which parts aren't garbage...?

 

[Toke]

I think this is typical. NLP is alternative psychology like homeopathic is alternative medicine. Skeptics, who would love to be the center of attention on an alternative website, get tossed off the alternative sites by those moderators who don't want alternative opinions to those they espouse on their site. On the JREF you only have to represent yourself as a believer in something alternative and you get to be the most popular person on the thread you are posting to. Unfortunately, alternative believers (with the exception of visionfromfeeling) quit our site when detailed questions are asked of them.

It's enough to make me feel I'm on the right side of this discussion.

Beautifully put.
And nominated

 

[Iknoweverything]

Just as well, I wouldn't believe a word of it anyway.



Ah, you _know_ they work, but you can't provide any _evidence_ for that. I see...



Odd, I've been asking you to actually tell us what _is_ possible, but you don't seem to be able to do that.



No, sorry, I'm not wasting money on garbage. Unless you can tell me which parts aren't garbage...?

I wish you the best of luck no matter what you believe. As long as I know thats enough. I really must be off now!

 

[remirol]

I wish you the best of luck no matter what you believe. As long as I know thats enough.

Well, it's _not_ enough, that's the point. You may be happy, but that doesn't speak one way or the other about the efficacy of NLP.

Avoiding the questions, however, says rather a lot, but it's nothing unusual.

 

[JFrankA]

Or Pacing and Leading


Pace Pace Pace Lead

Pace Pace Lead Lead

Pace Lead Lead Lead

Try it

Interesting how you responded to this post instead of my other one. The one I explained to you that you evidence. Instead, you tried to instruct me in NLP and doing a very bad job of dodging the fact that there is no clear evidence.

By the way, I am well aware of Pacing and Leading. I use it all the time in my shows. But, again, those are people who WANT to be paced and lead.

Let me put it this way. Let's say a guy goes into a microwave store, with the intent of buying a microwave, and tells the salesperson "I want to know more about the $50 microwave". The salesperson can NLP the customer and the customer might be convinced to but the $70. microwave instead. Of course, that's no proof that NLP did that. Especially since another salesperson, who doesn't use NLP at all, could upsell the same customer.

However, it can proved that, to continue this example, if a customer goes to a DVD store, with the intent to buy a DVD. That same microwave salesman can NLP that customer until he is blue in the face and he won't be able to convince that customer to spend his money on a microwave instead of a DVD.

It's kind of a weird way of making the example, but the point of what I am saying is that NLP will never ever convince someone to do something that they don't want to do.

You are prime example of it here. You have been trying to convince us, trying ways, except for the way we are asking for, and you have not been successful at all. The fact is with all your postering, you haven't proven a thing.

Here's the real secret, the thing that beats NLP without question. It's called listening to the person, trying to understand what they are saying and meaning, then responding.

It's a new method called "Communication"......

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Interesting how you responded to this post instead of my other one. The one I explained to you that you evidence. Instead, you tried to instruct me in NLP and doing a very bad job of dodging the fact that there is no clear evidence.

By the way, I am well aware of Pacing and Leading. I use it all the time in my shows. But, again, those are people who WANT to be paced and lead.

Let me put it this way. Let's say a guy goes into a microwave store, with the intent of buying a microwave, and tells the salesperson "I want to know more about the $50 microwave". The salesperson can NLP the customer and the customer might be convinced to but the $70. microwave instead. Of course, that's no proof that NLP did that. Especially since another salesperson, who doesn't use NLP at all, could upsell the same customer.

However, it can proved that, to continue this example, if a customer goes to a DVD store, with the intent to buy a DVD. That same microwave salesman can NLP that customer until he is blue in the face and he won't be able to convince that customer to spend his money on a microwave instead of a DVD.

It's kind of a weird way of making the example, but the point of what I am saying is that NLP will never ever convince someone to do something that they don't want to do.

You are prime example of it here. You have been trying to convince us, trying ways, except for the way we are asking for, and you have not been successful at all. The fact is with all your postering, you haven't proven a thing.

Here's the real secret, the thing that beats NLP without question. It's called listening to the person, trying to understand what they are saying and meaning, then responding.

It's a new method called "Communication"......

AKA, "Would you like fries with that?"

 

[MikeSun5]

By the way, I am well aware of Pacing and Leading. I use it all the time in my shows. But, again, those are people who WANT to be paced and lead.

Here's the real secret, the thing that beats NLP without question. It's called listening to the person, trying to understand what they are saying and meaning, then responding.

NLP is the same as any other nonsense like talking to the dead or bending spoons. When the results it claims can be replicated by non-NLP methods (see above quote), it casts doubt on NLP as a practice.
--also, I use the word "results" loosely... I don't count Jeffries' sex slaves or Iknoweverything's success as "results" --
NLP makes a bunch of big claims and if something doesn't work, they have convenient outs like "lack of rapport" or "lack of client desire."
NLP is psychology like Scientology is a church. If I could tell what someone was thinking by where their eyes were looking, or make someone quit smoking by waving my hands and making swishing noises, I'd be a billionaire.

By it's own admission, NLP is set up to "help people overcome self-perceived and subjective" problems, not to treat or cure any mental problems. Exactly the "for entertainment purposes only" type of disclaimer so common to New Age hooey.
Seriously. Look here and here. Browse around just a little.
And these people are trained psychologists, huh? NLP, hypnosis, and huna all taught together, huh? Science, huh?
Of course the go-to response would be my two examples aren't representative of NLP practitioners at large. I disagree. If you're into NLP, those sites would be two pretty popular domain names. It's no wonder why they're owned by crazies and not universities.

 

[Pup]

The funny part of all this, is that NLP seems to be designed from the viewpoint that there are NLP users, and then there's a fertile field of non-NLP users to manipulate with it. (I mean in its woo form and not just normal good human relations).

But what happens when two NLP-users try to use it on each other, unaware? I can just picture a guy using NLP to try to get a girl in bed with him, while the girl, meanwhile, is using NLP to get this creep to do something to really embarrass himself in front of everyone and then leave her alone. I'm sensing sitcom gold here.

 

[Lothario]

Yes.


....that's one!

You are now willing to send me all your money, aren't you?


Another website for you guys:

http://www.kevinhogan.com/index.htm

I've browsed through this guy's website and he's selling products like "Covert Hypnosis"; "Covert Influence"; "Secrets of Body Language", etc. Apparently, he's even made his way into some magazines like Cosmopolitan and Men's Health (he also has some pictures with Heidi Klum and a couple of Playmates. I must confess i am thinking about quitting my current job and starting my own NLP company).
How does a pseudo-scientific subject become a widespread business? Why are major companies sending their workers to NLP courses so they can learn all these rapport and influence techniques that don't even work?
A simples search on Yahoo for NLP will produce several pages of results. Some of them are just plain funny, like this NLP Jedi Master (http://modernjedi.com/), others appear more credible.
Isn't there some sort of governing body watching over this?

 

[remirol]

How does a pseudo-scientific subject become a widespread business?

By selling to people who are gullible.

Why are major companies sending their workers to NLP courses so they can learn all these rapport and influence techniques that don't even work?

Because a CEO who is smart about running a business isn't necessarily smart about knowing that NLP is a bunch of crap -- and from where he sits, the courses' cost may be chicken feed.

Isn't there some sort of governing body watching over this?

Why would there need to be? NLP doesn't work, so there are no issues involving human rights violations WRT the actual 'product' itself. As far as the rest, you'll find that there are gallons of disclaimers built in everywhere so that someone who spends the money, takes the courses, and gets no success can easily be told that he should blame himself for not using the tools correctly. Classic hallmark of woo.

As always, part of the free market includes Caveat emptor.

 

[Moochie]

You are now willing to send me all your money, aren't you?


Another website for you guys:

http://www.kevinhogan.com/index.htm

I've browsed through this guy's website and he's selling products like "Covert Hypnosis"; "Covert Influence"; "Secrets of Body Language", etc. Apparently, he's even made his way into some magazines like Cosmopolitan and Men's Health (he also has some pictures with Heidi Klum and a couple of Playmates. I must confess i am thinking about quitting my current job and starting my own NLP company).
How does a pseudo-scientific subject become a widespread business? Why are major companies sending their workers to NLP courses so they can learn all these rapport and influence techniques that don't even work?
A simples search on Yahoo for NLP will produce several pages of results. Some of them are just plain funny, like this NLP Jedi Master (http://modernjedi.com/), others appear more credible.
Isn't there some sort of governing body watching over this?

The trouble is, when I come across someone who is practicing these "techniques," they're so transparently obvious. Rather than come across as building rapport, the just appear creepy, as in exhibitionist creepy.


M.