• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Amway TV ad

Status
Not open for further replies.
Nice strawman. I never said pyramid schemes are legal.

Amway, Avon,Tupperware, May Kay are all legal pyramid schemes because they actually provide a product.


You're arguing semantics and I have to agree with icerat on this one. Pyramid schemes are, by definition, illegal. Some groups in Amway have (and probably still do) operate as a pyramid scheme, but Amyway itself doesn't. Therefore Amway is not a pyramid scheme.

That doesn't change whether Amway is a good idea or whether the majority of Amway recruits are lied to and misled. But calling it by a term that is defined as an illegal operation does not make it that illegal operation.

If you look at wiki, it also says:

A pyramid scheme is a non-sustainable business model

Even that definition fails since the business model has been around for over 50 years and there is no sign that it's "non-sustainable".
 
Icerat is simply an outright lying cultist. And make no mistake, this is a cult that using very effective brainwashing techniques.

The big pins (who are the only ones making real money besides the corp) make the vast majority of their profit from "tools". This includes cult like indoctrination meetings, audio recordings, books etc.

Icerat simply isn't high enough up in the hierarchy to know the true story. He's just a true believer who has been sucked in.

Notice that I asked him how much money he has made and gotten no response? This is because more likely than not he hasn't made any money (and never will). Fake it till ya make it as they say.

Icerat, here is my challenge to you. I will pay $500 to the charity of your choice if you show us your last 3 years of tax returns that show how much money you have made from this business. I'm sure you can send them to someone in this thread who can verify them and then I'll pay the money before they get released generally. Of course these must be independently verifiable.


I also suggest digging up some of the other threads on this where I go into detail about my background. I have a lot more experience with this business than Icerat does (with both family members being involved for 30+ years as well as having worked closely with a bunch of high level pins on computer software for the business).

Stay away it is a business cult and it will suck you dry until you blow away in the wind.
 
Yes I see. One thing I've noticed with these clowns is the lack of interest in actually making money.

How about you just state how much you've lost so far? What is your hourly income rate so far?

Again I don't dispute that people are making money. It's just that the real money is in the tools. I did a bunch of math in the other thread to show how this works.
 
You're arguing semantics and I have to agree with icerat on this one.

It's my understanding that the con commonly refered to as a pyramid scheme was established well before MLM's. MLM's evolved to circumvent the law.

I think it's foolish and deliberately misleading to represent them as anything but legal pyramid schemes.

Is Amway really sustainable or is it just that it hasn't collapsed yet? It seems to teeter on the edge, waiting for the next generation of "entreprenuers".

If it makes you happy I'll refer to Amway as a not illegal pyramid scheme :D
 
pyramid schemes are by definition illegal (see above) You're now claiming these companies are legal illegal schemes.

The problem was with the blanket statement. But yes, AFAIK these companies all took their busniess models from an illegal pyramid scheme for a reason. Can you offer a legitimate reason for the continued operation in this mail order, heirarchical manner when an actual business with a store front is much much more sucessful by comparison?


Because it and the other companies mentioned are NOT what you say they are, and when you say it is a pyramid scheme, then you're saying they're illegal businesses operating on an unsustainable model based around earning money through recruiting people and getting paid when they join.

And I say "Meh". It's just not realistic to refer to these companies as anything but legal pyramid schemes. If you don't like the double negative too bad, it really needs to be said.
 
Notice that I asked him how much money he has made and gotten no response? This is because more likely than not he hasn't made any money (and never will). Fake it till ya make it as they say.

Icerat, here is my challenge to you. I will pay $500 to the charity of your choice if you show us your last 3 years of tax returns that show how much money you have made from this business. I'm sure you can send them to someone in this thread who can verify them and then I'll pay the money before they get released generally. Of course these must be independently verifiable.


Never any evidence. Just talk. It really is transparent, dude.
 
I think I agree with the comments above that this is a great thread because it really, through the constant denial and defensive maneuvering of IR, shows involvement in Amway for what it is.

IceRat - the discussion on the food supplements alone.... in two separate threads, no less. If you were looking at anyone else, wouldn't you recognize this as cult-like devotion?
 
IceRat - the discussion on the food supplements alone.... in two separate threads, no less. If you were looking at anyone else, wouldn't you recognize this as cult-like devotion?

Uh ... wow ... so 10 years of independently researching nutrition topics, without any assistance or motivation from Amway, convinces me that there's a case for supplementation, and that the best supplements come from Nutrilite. And that's "cult-like"? Uh ... wow ... talk about clutching.

As for the 2 threads, I'm not sure how that happened, was a bit messy ....
 
The problem was with the blanket statement. But yes, AFAIK these companies all took their busniess models from an illegal pyramid scheme for a reason.

Oh good grief. Please, explain to me how pyramid schemes and Amway are similar, and don't bother mentioning anything that is similar in ANY distribution/marketing business.

Can you offer a legitimate reason for the continued operation in this mail order, heirarchical manner when an actual business with a store front is much much more sucessful by comparison?

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "mail order, heirarchical manner"? The "heirarchy" is today non-existent in terms of distribution and has always been similiar to traditional distribution in terms of levels of markup and payments.

Your last statement is just false. Amway's two major brands are Artistry and Nutrilite. Nutrilite is the #1 brand in it's category in the world, and Artistry #4. Amway and Avon are both in the top 5 in the world in personal care products. Amway for example outsells both Unilever and Proctor & Gamble in South Korea.

So your claim that a "store front is much more successful" is simply false.
 
It's my understanding that the con commonly refered to as a pyramid scheme was established well before MLM's. MLM's evolved to circumvent the law.

Uhuh. Since you're such an expert, when and what were the first pyramid schemes and when and what were the earliest MLMs?

What "laws" are MLMs circumventing?

I think it's foolish and deliberately misleading to represent them as anything but legal pyramid schemes.

I think it's foolish and deliberaty misleading of you to continue to pretend you even remotely know what you're talking about?

Is Amway really sustainable or is it just that it hasn't collapsed yet?

This just reveals your ignorance. Why would it "collapse" any more than say Barnes & Noble?

It seems to teeter on the edge, waiting for the next generation of "entreprenuers".

Oh yeah, teetering (sales in millions by year) ....

Alticorsales1960-2008.png


If it makes you happy I'll refer to Amway as a not illegal pyramid scheme :D

What would make me happy is if you went and did some research before mouthing off any further.
 
Uh ... wow ... so 10 years of independently researching nutrition topics, without any assistance or motivation from Amway, convinces me that there's a case for supplementation, and that the best supplements come from Nutrilite. And that's "cult-like"? Uh ... wow ... talk about clutching.

As for the 2 threads, I'm not sure how that happened, was a bit messy ....

"Clutching"? As in "clutching/grasping at straws"?

I think you're mistaking who the drowning man is, here. You're making another blanket impressive statement that you should know by now we're going to ask you to back up, so let's get to it....

Ten years of indepently researching topics.....

How independent? How researched? What sources? What qualifications do you have?

Frankly, everything you've said thus far is stuff that a junior high school student could've come up with. And the fact that all roads lead to Nutrilite (Amway), and defence of their corporate line....?

Again, wouldn't that have you asking questions if it was a discussion of religion and every single answer seemed to come from the Book of Mormon or be in defence of the Latter Day Saints? (I've got nothing more against the Mormons than any other religion, just using them as an example.)
 
I think I agree with the comments above that this is a great thread because it really, through the constant denial and defensive maneuvering of IR, shows involvement in Amway for what it is./QUOTE]

Sorry to come back to this post, but are you seriously referring to correcting of completely false statements as "constant denial and defensive maneuvering"?
 
I think I agree with the comments above that this is a great thread because it really, through the constant denial and defensive maneuvering of IR, shows involvement in Amway for what it is.

Sorry to come back to this post, but are you seriously referring to correcting of completely false statements as "constant denial and defensive maneuvering"?


Are you reading the same thread as I am reading?

Yes, that's what I'm referring to.
 
Oh good grief. Please, explain to me how pyramid schemes and Amway are similar, and don't bother mentioning anything that is similar in ANY distribution/marketing business.

To be honest I can't really, I'm speaking more to what I know of Mary Kay, and what I can remember of Amway. In them your "pricing" was based on the number of minions you enlisted as well as your order amount. I'm actually interested in how pricing, profit etc. are done with Amway. If you wouldn't mind explaining it in your own words (or I can Google it)

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "mail order, heirarchical manner"? The "heirarchy" is today non-existent in terms of distribution and has always been similiar to traditional distribution in terms of levels of markup and payments.

Everything is done by mail order, and pricing is based on a heirarchy. Again, this is what I know of Mary Kay and what I remember of Amway.

Your last statement is just false. Amway's two major brands are Artistry and Nutrilite. Nutrilite is the #1 brand in it's category in the world, and Artistry #4. Amway and Avon are both in the top 5 in the world in personal care products. Amway for example outsells both Unilever and Proctor & Gamble in South Korea.
So your claim that a "store front is much more successful" is simply false.

Wal Mart. K-Mart. Sears. Target. et al.

Are you serious? You're really going to tout the South Korean market as anything meaningful? Please. I really don't care if Amway is the leading brand in Albania, Gabon and the Republic of Moldova. They don't seem to sell jack here in Detroit.
 
How independent? How researched? What sources? What qualifications do you have?

I have multipe degrees in health science (including postgrad) from a major university and spent a decade working for in public health research.

Frankly, everything you've said thus far is stuff that a junior high school student could've come up with. And the fact that all roads lead to Nutrilite (Amway), and defence of their corporate line....?

What "defence of their corporate line" are you talking about?

And you're right, a junior high student could come up with a lot of what I've said, because it's that obvious and that well known. Even a momentary effort can find a deal of research talking about declining nutrient content in plants and the poor eating habits of most people today, and increasing problems of nutrient depletion or deficiency.


quote]Again, wouldn't that have you asking questions if it was a discussion of religion and every single answer seemed to come from the Book of Mormon or be in defence of the Latter Day Saints? (I've got nothing more against the Mormons than any other religion, just using them as an example.)[/QUOTE]

Frankly I don't know what you're babbling about. I've barely said anything from any "corporate line" apart from what they claim about their quality control processes. You seem to be under the false impression the other stuff I've been talking about comes from Amway/Nutrilite. It doesn't. It comes from hundreds of articles from dozens and dozens of peer-reviewed journals. I simply don't have the time to write a treatise on it here for you folk.

Here's a quick summary article of some of the research on declining nutrient content of food due to modern farming practices. Little more than logic and basic biology of is needed to predict this, yet on this forum it's been denied it's happening. I have papers from the US, Canada, Australia, UK, Denmark, and Sweden all with similar findings - the nutrient content of food is decreasing. It's not rocket science, particular with regards mineral content. The minerals come from the soil, if it's not being replaced, how does it get in the plants? Magic? And what about anti-oxidants and other phytonutrients? If the plants use them to protect against disease, and they no longer need to do this because we protect them .... what does evolutionary theory say will happen to production of these substances? Again, 100% predictable.

It also requires little more than logic and basic knowledge to understand that for example, if people eat less fish and spend less time in the sun or getting UVB exposure, then Vitamin D levels will likely decrease. It's 100% predictable, yet the constant mantra is that there's no problem with vitamin deficiences. A mantra that ignores the overwhelming research.

And then there's the little more than reactionary obsession about "over-priced vitamins" that smacks of bias and intellectual laziness. The research is overwhelming that diets rich in fruit and vegetables are healthier, and there's also an awful lot of research indicating that synthetic vitamins don't seem to to do much. But increase dietary intake of fruit and vegetable nutrients with the aid of a plant concentrates? Oh no, waste of money! Just buy the cheap synthetics! Please ... where's the logic in that?
 
Uhuh. Since you're such an expert, when and what were the first pyramid schemes and when and what were the earliest MLMs?
What "laws" are MLMs circumventing?

I'm not an expert, nor do I play one on TV. I'm a guy who can put 2 and 2 together. I didn't know Amway was a pyramid scheme, I figured it out. So have other people, hence the inclusion in the Wiki article.

I think it's foolish and deliberaty misleading of you to continue to pretend you even remotely know what you're talking about?

I'm not sure Alticor has done to improve the pyramid scheme business structure from what it was. What I gather from people here and on the net is very little. They've made a move to "Direct Marketing" but still retain the pyramid scheme to survive ie. sucker some poor sap into sinking his $1000 into pitching this crap (decent crap) to his or her friends with the promise of fortunes to come. Fortunes that never manifest.


This just reveals your ignorance. Why would it "collapse" any more than say Barnes & Noble?

Barnes and Noble doesn't rely on its book club members for a substantial part of its income. They have gone to direct marketing, which has been a boom to the business and book selling industry on the whole. Still, they retain their storefronts. (I think, or did they get bought out in the Amazon/Chapters thing? Whatever, the point still stands :) )


What would make me happy is if you went and did some research before mouthing off any further.

I'd rather discuss this with an Amway representative on the net ;)
 
To be honest I can't really, I'm speaking more to what I know of Mary Kay, and what I can remember of Amway. In them your "pricing" was based on the number of minions you enlisted as well as your order amount.

Neither Mary Kay nor Amway bases pricing on the "number of minions you enlist"

I'm actually interested in how pricing, profit etc. are done with Amway. If you wouldn't mind explaining it in your own words (or I can Google it)

Simple. it's volume discounting. The more you buy, the cheaper you get it, so the bigger your profit margins on wholesale and retail sales.

Everything is done by mail order, and pricing is based on a heirarchy. Again, this is what I know of Mary Kay and what I remember of Amway.

Mary Kay does one-to-one retail sales and internet sales. They probably accept "mail order" too, Amway does, but it's been virtually non-existent for more than a decade.

Wal Mart. K-Mart. Sears. Target. et al.

They're not our competitors. There's was a corporate blog post addressing this issue a couple of years ago - Not Wal-Mart and Never Want to Be

Are you serious? You're really going to tout the South Korean market as anything meaningful? Please. I really don't care if Amway is the leading brand in Albania, Gabon and the Republic of Moldova. They don't seem to sell jack here in Detroit.

I'm curious as to how you know Amway's Detroit sales numbers?

US sales are around a billion, it's one of the countries largest private companies, and has #1 in internet sales for health & beauty. And sorry, the rest of the world does matter.
 
I'm not an expert, nor do I play one on TV. I'm a guy who can put 2 and 2 together. I didn't know Amway was a pyramid scheme, I figured it out. So have other people, hence the inclusion in the Wiki article.

*what* inclusion on Wiki? The Amway article specifically references pyramid accusations and the fact they've been dismissed by every court that look at them. The "pyramid scheme" article has virtually no references outside the first paragraph and seems to be little more than someones opinion. I provided you with multiple links to references from around the world.

So while you and "other people" might have "figured it out", you figured wrong.

I'm not sure Alticor has done to improve the pyramid scheme business structure from what it was.

Alticor has NEVER had a "pyramid scheme business stucture". Ever.

What I gather from people here and on the net is very little. They've made a move to "Direct Marketing" but still retain the pyramid scheme to survive ie. sucker some poor sap into sinking his $1000 into pitching this crap (decent crap) to his or her friends with the promise of fortunes to come. Fortunes that never manifest.

$1000???? It's something like $45 in the US!

Barnes and Noble doesn't rely on its book club members for a substantial part of its income. They have gone to direct marketing, which has been a boom to the business and book selling industry on the whole. Still, they retain their storefronts. (I think, or did they get bought out in the Amazon/Chapters thing? Whatever, the point still stands :) )

So Amazon is a scam because they don't have store fronts? How about Costco, which relies on sale to members for its income?

I'd rather discuss this with an Amway representative on the net ;)

:boxedin:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom