Horrific child abuse in Catholic Irish schools

[Rolfe]

One aspect of this I haven't seen discussed is the likelihood (to my mind) that a substantial number of pederasts joined this particular Catholic sect precisely because it was recognised as being the way to get what they wanted while being protected from any legal consequences. It's still mostly being presented as "look what these terrible religious people did". However, it seems to me that many of these perpetrators probably had no religious calling at all, but joined up in order to get access to children to abuse. Then of course if enough committed pederasts are in the organisation, some will obviously rise to positions of authority and influence, and so it will become even easier for the organisation to be hijacked in this manner.

I'm not saying this to excuse what happened in any way - quite the contrary. I'm saying that a sect of the Catholic Church was deliberately hijacked by pederasts over many years to supply them with vulnerable children for abuse. It makes the W0nderland bunch look like rank amateurs. I think it's a deeply sinister occurrence, and needs to be looked at in that light.

Rolfe.

 

[TragicMonkey]

One aspect of this I haven't seen discussed is the likelihood (to my mind) that a substantial number of pederasts joined this particular Catholic sect precisely because it was recognised as being the way to get what they wanted while being protected from any legal consequences. It's still mostly being presented as "look what these terrible religious people did". However, it seems to me that many of these perpetrators probably had no religious calling at all, but joined up in order to get access to children to abuse. Then of course if enough committed pederasts are in the organisation, some will obviously rise to positions of authority and influence, and so it will become even easier for the organisation to be hijacked in this manner.

I'm not saying this to excuse what happened in any way - quite the contrary. I'm saying that a sect of the Catholic Church was deliberately hijacked by pederasts over many years to supply them with vulnerable children for abuse. It makes the W0nderland bunch look like rank amateurs. I think it's a deeply sinister occurrence, and needs to be looked at in that light.

It seems obvious to me that demanding celibacy simply doesn't work. But Christianity in general, and Catholicism in particular, are fundamentally anti-sex. It's been causing problems ever since they adopted the celibacy rules. But since they're wrong about life, the universe, and everything else, why the heck would I expect them to grasp a basic tenet of human nature?

 

[Darat]

Children in those days did not have any rights as human beings and people could in practice do what we wanted with them.

...snip...

Nope doesn't work since all we have to look at (for example) is the Congregations' own canon laws - they outlawed the abusive behaviours that they allowed to happen.

 

[Darat]

One aspect of this I haven't seen discussed is the likelihood (to my mind) that a substantial number of pederasts joined this particular Catholic sect precisely because it was recognised as being the way to get what they wanted while being protected from any legal consequences. It's still mostly being presented as "look what these terrible religious people did". However, it seems to me that many of these perpetrators probably had no religious calling at all, but joined up in order to get access to children to abuse. Then of course if enough committed pederasts are in the organisation, some will obviously rise to positions of authority and influence, and so it will become even easier for the organisation to be hijacked in this manner.

I'm not saying this to excuse what happened in any way - quite the contrary. I'm saying that a sect of the Catholic Church was deliberately hijacked by pederasts over many years to supply them with vulnerable children for abuse. It makes the W0nderland bunch look like rank amateurs. I think it's a deeply sinister occurrence, and needs to be looked at in that light.

Rolfe.

Can you support that view from the evidence given in the report? Because I can't see how that is supported by the evidence in the report. (ETA: Sincere question by the way - I am still making my way through the report so it may well be that the evidence is somewhere in there but I've not come across it yet.)

 

[Rolfe]

No, not at all. I haven't read the report. It was what occurred to me while I was hearing all the media stories about it. I may be quite wrong, but what I was saying was that this is something that ought to be considered by those investigating it, and I wonder if they actually did consider the possibility.

On one hand you have the suggestion that this is what you get when you demand celibacy from ordained clergy - when natural impulses are curbed they may turn to less natural outlets. Maybe so. However I would like to see some discussion of the alternative possibility, that men already inclined in that direction were drawn to the sect because they knew it would afford them opportunities to satisfy their desires without fear of exposure.

Rolfe.

 

[maddog]

Excellent point, Rolfe. If someone had such an evil proclivity, they would think, "hmmm... where can I get access to vulnerable kids? Schools, of course. And in religious schools, kids are taught to trust clergy... [evil laugh, plotting, etc.]" Add to that, if there was any kind of rumor or street knowledge that certain schools / sects were... "home" to that kind of behavior...

 

[Rolfe]

Well, there were apparently plenty abused children. I don't know if any of them became abusers themselves, but it does happen. It would be miraculous if none of them ever said anything to anyone at all though. I wouldn't be at all surprised if there was an underground rumour mill/information network that pederasts could tap into to get this sort of information.

We've seen more recently that these people are often extremely devious and deeply manipulative. Look at the organised internet child abuse networks that have been uncovered. Before the internet, what were they all doing? Well some of them at least may well have decided that becoming a Catholic priest had definite plus points as a career move.

Rolfe.

 

[shecky]

It's an interesting thought, Rolfe. From what I understand, there may have been a certain self-perpetuating aspect to these kinds of places. In societies like these, "damaged" children grow up to be similarly damaged adults with limited prospects. It was not unusual for some to "see the light" and join the religious order, which would ensure the viability of the institution, allow these damaged people to lead outwardly respectable lives, and preserve the pathology on the next generation of victims.

Not quite as dire as the situation in Ireland, I come from a background where I attended Catholic seminaries, one year in the high school, one in the college, here in the Diocese of Los Angeles, places that have gained some notoriety for having bred a number of creepy priests. And I have often wondered about the tendency these institutions have had to draw/create young men who are broken in some sexually related way. I could tell you, well before the US scandals, that there were a rather high percentage of homosexual young men attracted to these places. And indeed, it appears some may have been preyed upon by their clergy superiors. These situations were a bit different than those in Ireland, in that seminarians generally attended voluntarily. Even so, there were some really odd cases to evolve there when one scratched beneath the surface.

 

[rjh01]

Nope doesn't work since all we have to look at (for example) is the Congregations' own canon laws - they outlawed the abusive behaviours that they allowed to happen.

Sorry Darat, but those laws and all other laws only apply to human beings. Children are not human beings. They are objects owned by (in this case) the church. Just ask the church.

I have heard of Rolfe's point before. The question that needs to be asked is 'what procedures were in place to ensure that child abusers could not get access to unsupervised children?' The answer is none. Even today the answer is not much. There are police checks but little else. Not sure what else can be done. So the question may not be very fair.

 

[Darat]

Sorry Darat, but those laws and all other laws only apply to human beings. Children are not human beings. They are objects owned by (in this case) the church. Just ask the church.

...snip...

No those laws applied to children, the canon law of the Congregation for example had rules about how you could and could not treat a child, for example "fondling" a child was against canon law.

ETA: Some examples of how they breached their own laws:

http://www.childabusecommission.com/rpt/pdfs/CICA-VOL1-06.PDF ...snip...

Visitations were a requirement of Canon Law, and their primary objective was to ensure that the
Brothers were acting in the spirit of their vocation and observing the rules of the Congregation. In
addition, the Visitor was required to inquire into the condition of discipline in the Community, its finances, and its premises. Although his function was primarily to inspect, the Visitor was also
required to take immediate action if, during the course of his inspection, he encountered ‘anything
of a serious nature ... opposed to the religious spirit’ in the Community.

...snip...

Constitution 91 deals with relations between Brothers and their pupils. It states:
Whilst the Brothers should cherish an affection for all their pupils especially the poor, they
are forbidden to manifest a particular friendship for any of them. They must not fondle
their pupils; and unless duty and necessity should require it, a Brother must never be
alone with a pupil.

 

[a_unique_person]

No, not at all. I haven't read the report. It was what occurred to me while I was hearing all the media stories about it. I may be quite wrong, but what I was saying was that this is something that ought to be considered by those investigating it, and I wonder if they actually did consider the possibility.

On one hand you have the suggestion that this is what you get when you demand celibacy from ordained clergy - when natural impulses are curbed they may turn to less natural outlets. Maybe so. However I would like to see some discussion of the alternative possibility, that men already inclined in that direction were drawn to the sect because they knew it would afford them opportunities to satisfy their desires without fear of exposure.

Rolfe.

I'd guess part that, part the celibacy. Men who would normally be heterosexual will indulge in homosexual activity in prison.

The brutality appears to be an important part of the whole nightmare as well, sexual abuse and violence are often related.

I was taught by Catholic nuns who were mostly sourced from Ireland, and some of them were violent, miserable lunatics. They were mentally ill. Secondary school under the brothers introduced me to a the male version of the violence. You could tell when they were hitting the boys as punishment, they enjoyed it. Some of them had a good technique worked out, with plenty of shoulder behind the strap.

What I experienced was nothing compared to what these poor children did, though. My experience, though, does give me some idea of what it must have been like. There is something about the Catholic hatred of life, love of misery, inability to love and self loathing that comes out very clearly in all of this.

 

[rjh01]

The thing that upsets me is that there was nothing in place to detect and stop this sort of thing going on. Hence it went on decade after decade. Everything else that has been said is just a side show.

Edit. The other thing that is almost as serious is that the RCC has in its defence tried to shoot the messenger. It would be better to say they have procedures in place now to detect and prevent such things from happening.

 

[a_unique_person]

The thing that upsets me is that there was nothing in place to detect and stop this sort of thing going on. Hence it went on decade after decade. Everything else that has been said is just a side show.

Edit. The other thing that is almost as serious is that the RCC has in its defence tried to shoot the messenger. It would be better to say they have procedures in place now to detect and prevent such things from happening.

On the contrary, the evidence is that everything was done to cover up any abuse found. That abuse was discovered and covered up, it can only be considered criminal that the a formal investigation was not started years ago.

 

[rjh01]

Nothing a unique person has just said contradicts what I was trying to say. No-one went out to look for abuse. It was brought to certain people attention (by the victims) and then they covered it up.

 

[a_unique_person]

Nothing a unique person has just said contradicts what I was trying to say. No-one went out to look for abuse. It was brought to certain people attention (by the victims) and then they covered it up.

I wasn't trying to argue with you, just putting my own view on it.

 

[Rolfe]

The trouble with this, for me, is that it plays into a fairly nasty part of the society I was brought up in. Catholics were "them". "They" had Irish names, and spoke differently, and went to different schools, and their religion was superstition and so on and so on.

Demonising "Catholics" is something I don't do.

Rolfe.

 

[a_unique_person]

The trouble with this, for me, is that it plays into a fairly nasty part of the society I was brought up in. Catholics were "them". "They" had Irish names, and spoke differently, and went to different schools, and their religion was superstition and so on and so on.

Demonising "Catholics" is something I don't do.

Rolfe.

I was raised as a Catholic. I'm surprised there is more outrage about this. Scale of the problem, the magnitude of the suffering, the perversity and the continual acts of the Church to bury the problem and hide are all remarkable. It's not about being Catholic, it's about the victims and their perpetrators, and those who hid the crimes. Catholic haters already have their irrational hatred, this is quite real and tangible.

 

[rjh01]

I was raised as a Catholic. I'm surprised there is not more outrage about this. Scale of the problem, the magnitude of the suffering, the perversity and the continual acts of the Church to bury the problem and hide are all remarkable. It's not about being Catholic, it's about the victims and their perpetrators, and those who hid the crimes. Catholic haters already have their irrational hatred, but this is quite real and tangible.

I think there are a couple of words missing from your post, so I added them for you. My intent is just to make your post make sense. If I have altered your meaning please correct and accept my apologies.

 

[Denver]

I've been wondering, that the size and structure of the RCC is both a pro and a con here. The structure can both be used to hide these abuses, as well as find and stop them. I think, at least I hope, it has changed from the former to the latter over the decades.

I also wonder about those organizations without a large hierarchy or organizational structure, that may have the same problems going on today, yet without the oversight to find and stop it. Perhaps like smaller churches or schools?

Or does size matter at all?

 

[AgeGap]

I was dragged up as a Catholic. I went to a school that had a (now) convicted pedophile as a headmaster. When he left you would not believe how big a weirdo they replaced him with. How necessary is it to fondle a childs arse before he was strapped to make sure he was not hiding anything down his trousers to lessen the pain?

The pope downwards should burn in Hell.