The Heiwa Challenge

[TSR]

Have they worked out which way is 'up' in space ?

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That's kind of the point, Bill: Heiwa apparently believes zie has.

Oh, and it is the "centripetal force" effect of gravity which acts to keep the moon from flying away, not centrifugal.

are you *sure* you want to keep your cart hitched to that horse?
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[bill smith]

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That's kind of the point, Bill: Heiwa apparently believes zie has.

Oh, and it is the "centripetal force" effect of gravity which acts to keep the moon from flying away, not centrifugal.

are you *sure* you want to keep your cart hitched to that horse?
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Why don't the Earth and the Moon come together considering the massive attractive forces between them ?

 

[bill smith]

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That's kind of the point, Bill: Heiwa apparently believes zie has.

Oh, and it is the "centripetal force" effect of gravity which acts to keep the moon from flying away, not centrifugal.

are you *sure* you want to keep your cart hitched to that horse?
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iAs I understand it- in the same way that it's always five o'clock somewhere on Earth the Moon can be seen always to be somewhere in a horizontal orbit relative to the Earth. So it's just as easy for working purposes to consider that it's in a horizontal orbit wherever you are. It would be a different matter for Astronomers I suppose though.

 

[TSR]

Why don't the Earth and the Moon come together considering the massive attractive forces between them ?

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A little something we big kids call "tangential velocity." Were that velocity great enough to break the Moon free of orbit, we would call it "escape velocity." And were it not enough to compensate for the centripetal force of gravity, we would call it "fall down, go boom."

Any other basic concepts related to orbital mechanics you want me to name?
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[TSR]

iAs I understand it- in the same way that it's always five o'clock somewhere on Earth

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Incorrect. It is 4:54 CDT as I write this -- care to tell me where it the world it is current 5:00 -- am or pm, doesn't matter which....
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the Moon can be seen always to be somewhere in a horizontal orbit relative to the Earth.

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Depending on how one orients the orbital plane, correct.

Which means that it can *also* been seen as being in a non-horizontal orbit.

Which then make Hiewa's blather about the "horizontal pulling force" of gravity more wrong than it is right, given that there is only *one* plane for which it is accurate, and an infinate number of planes for which it is not.

Which is why you asked which way is "up" in space, apparently not realizing the mess that makes of Heiwa's blather (and why that concept is so laughable.)
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So it's just as easy for working purposes to consider that it's in a horizontal orbit whereever you are.

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Easy, perhaps.

But demonstrably wrong as an objective matter.
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It would be a different mstter for Astronomers I suppose though.

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Or for anyone else who isn't operating from incorrect ideas regarding the moon's orbit.
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[bill smith]

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A little something we big kids call "tangential velocity." Were that velocity great enough to break the Moon free of orbit, we would call it "escape velocity." And were it not enough to compensate for the centripetal force of gravity, we would call it "fall down, go boom."

Any other basic concepts related to orbital mechanics you want me to name?
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Thanks. We always say 'go Boom,fall down' but that's what makes us Truthers nad Debunkers I suppose.lol

 

[bill smith]

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Incorrect. It is 4:54 CDT as I write this -- care to tell me where it the world it is current 5:00 -- am or pm, doesn't matter which....
.

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Depending on how one orients the orbital plane, correct.

Which means that it can *also* been seen as being in a non-horizontal orbit.

Which then make Hiewa's blather about the "horizontal pulling force" of gravity more wrong than it is right, given that there is only *one* plane for which it is accurate, and an infinate number of planes for which it is not.

Which is why you asked which way is "up" in space, apparently not realizing the mess that makes of Heiwa's blather (and why that concept is so laughable.)
.

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Easy, perhaps.

But demonstrably wrong as an objective matter.
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Or for anyone else who isn't operating from incorrect ideas regarding the moon's orbit.
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I always say 'Well...it's five o'clock somewhere on Earth' when I want to have an early drink. Just my little joke really.

 

[FineWine]

I always say 'Well...it's five o'clock somewhere on Earth' when I want to have an early drink. Just my little joke really.

Speaking of jokes, your guru thinks you are perfectly safe if you are on A97 when floors C1-13 crash down on you. He is, of course, absurdly wrong. Tell us if it makes any difference whether the light stuff is on C1 and the heavy stuff is on C2 or vice versa.

 

[TSR]

I always say 'Well...it's five o'clock somewhere on Earth' when I want to have an early drink. Just my little joke really.

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A little joke which allows you to avoid admitting how wrong both you and Heiwa are about "horizontal pulling."

How ... funny.
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[GlennB]

Why don't the Earth and the Moon come together considering the massive attractive forces between them ?

The moon is constantly accelerating towards the Earth. If it weren't it would be getting further away.

 

[Heiwa]

Gravitation is a natural phenomenon by which objects with mass attract one another.

So two objects A and C with mass that happen to be in, say, a horizontal plane, attract one another. Quite basic actually.

Of course, there are many other objects, C, D ... etc, around so they also attract A and C. Plenty of attractive gravity forces around!

Back to Topic - The Heiwa Challenge.

Upper structural part C consists of many elements with masses and they are dropped ... in the vertical plane in this case.

There is a big mass below, the Earth, and it attracts the part C masses. Evidently the part C masses also attracts the Earth but, let's ignore that effect in the Challenge.

So forces act on the part C masses, that accelerate the C masses.

However, there is this part A in the way of part C on its way to Earth. A has 10 times the total masses of C and is in fact resting on Earth. A also consists of many masses in the form of structural elements of similar type to C.

So C collides with A. What happens? To keep it simple, it is only one little element (mass) of C, lets call it C1, that contacts another little element (mass) of A, let's call it A1 at beginning of collision. The other masses of C and A do not collide with anything, but as all C masses are one way or another connected to C1, they will be affected. Same in A.

The purpose of The Heiwa Challenge is to find out what happens to C1 and the other C masses and to A1 and the other A masses.

Some people believe (there is no evidence) that little C1 and the other C masses some way or another can one-way crush down A1 and all the other A masses. They believe this as somebody has (dis)informed them so. They have not checked the info provided to them! This happens often - you can say there is an info war.

Little C1 and the other C masses are, on the other hand, held together - connected - in various ways and these connections may break when forces/energy are acting upon them in, e.g. a collision. When the C connections are broken, part C is in principle destroyed. Its many masses are disconnected from one another and cannot do much harm when attracted by Earth.

Same for A.

One reason why part C cannot one-way crush down part A is that the connections in part C fail before the connections in part A and/or part C runs out of energy before breaking all its connections. Many people do not believe that basic fact. They are the losers in the info war.

So that's the reason for The Heiwa Challenge. Build any structure where structural part C one-way crushes a similar structural part A (mass A > mass 10C and much more connections in A than C, of course).

You will learn a lot, e.g. that part C cannot one-way crush down part A assisted by gravity only.

 

[GlennB]

When the C connections are broken, part C is in principle destroyed. Its many masses are disconnected from one another and cannot do much harm when attracted by Earth.

Same for A.

Shall we all just laugh in unison at the bolded part? Or shall we all say that the disconnected parts will do as much damage as the laws of physics dictate? As opposed to waving it away with "cannot do much harm" ?
Life is full of tough decisions

 

[Heiwa]

Shall we all just laugh in unison at the bolded part? Or shall we all say that the disconnected parts will do as much damage as the laws of physics dictate? As opposed to waving it away with "cannot do much harm" ?
Life is full of tough decisions

Well, stop laughing and start to build a structure where part C destroys part A according to The Heiwa Challenge rules ... and prove me wrong.

It seems you agree that part C consists of many masses, i.e. is not one solid, rigid chunk of whatever. Actually part C is most air but you can remove the air and fill it with other stuff! But don't forget! You have to do the same with part A.

 

[GlennB]

Well, stop laughing and start to build a structure where part C destroys part A according to The Heiwa Challenge rules ... and prove me wrong.

No. The structure would have to be very large, and would cost a lot of money to build. Scale, Heiwa, scale.

So - here's a challenge for you. Build that water tank on legs, with the fire underneath, that you were encouraging children to make about a year ago. Remember? The welded steel plates to make a large tank full of water, and the fire below with old cloth and wood and diesel? The one you were challenged to reproduce yourself, but FAILED to do ? You ran from that challenge, because you had never yourself made the structure and tested it, despite claiming that it would survive the fire.

So ... prove yourself first, before asking others to invest '000s of Euros.

Go ahead. Build your water tank and provide photographic evidence of its surviving your fire conditions. You have the welding experience.

 

[roundhead]

Heiwa.. you are never going to get an educated response from the amoeba's that infest this place.

They get it perfectly, and are well aware you are perfectly correct.

But you are truly the coyote in a prairie dog village, and they keep their heads down

 

[tsig]

Gravitation is a natural phenomenon by which objects with mass attract one another.

So two objects A and C with mass that happen to be in, say, a horizontal plane, attract one another. Quite basic actually.

Of course, there are many other objects, C, D ... etc, around so they also attract A and C. Plenty of attractive gravity forces around!

Back to Topic - The Heiwa Challenge.

Upper structural part C consists of many elements with masses and they are dropped ... in the vertical plane in this case.

There is a big mass below, the Earth, and it attracts the part C masses. Evidently the part C masses also attracts the Earth but, let's ignore that effect in the Challenge.

So forces act on the part C masses, that accelerate the C masses.

However, there is this part A in the way of part C on its way to Earth. A has 10 times the total masses of C and is in fact resting on Earth. A also consists of many masses in the form of structural elements of similar type to C.

So C collides with A. What happens? To keep it simple, it is only one little element (mass) of C, lets call it C1, that contacts another little element (mass) of A, let's call it A1 at beginning of collision. The other masses of C and A do not collide with anything, but as all C masses are one way or another connected to C1, they will be affected. Same in A.

The purpose of The Heiwa Challenge is to find out what happens to C1 and the other C masses and to A1 and the other A masses.

Some people believe (there is no evidence) that little C1 and the other C masses some way or another can one-way crush down A1 and all the other A masses. They believe this as somebody has (dis)informed them so. They have not checked the info provided to them! This happens often - you can say there is an info war.

Little C1 and the other C masses are, on the other hand, held together - connected - in various ways and these connections may break when forces/energy are acting upon them in, e.g. a collision. When the C connections are broken, part C is in principle destroyed. Its many masses are disconnected from one another and cannot do much harm when attracted by Earth.

Same for A.

One reason why part C cannot one-way crush down part A is that the connections in part C fail before the connections in part A and/or part C runs out of energy before breaking all its connections. Many people do not believe that basic fact. They are the losers in the info war.

So that's the reason for The Heiwa Challenge. Build any structure where structural part C one-way crushes a similar structural part A (mass A > mass 10C and much more connections in A than C, of course).

You will learn a lot, e.g. that part C cannot one-way crush down part A assisted by gravity only.

So when the big C force is attracted to the big A force they get together and produce a bunch of little ac forces?

 

[FineWine]

Gravitation is a natural phenomenon by which objects with mass attract one another.

So two objects A and C with mass that happen to be in, say, a horizontal plane, attract one another. Quite basic actually.

Of course, there are many other objects, C, D ... etc, around so they also attract A and C. Plenty of attractive gravity forces around!

Back to Topic - The Heiwa Challenge.

Upper structural part C consists of many elements with masses and they are dropped ... in the vertical plane in this case.

There is a big mass below, the Earth, and it attracts the part C masses. Evidently the part C masses also attracts the Earth but, let's ignore that effect in the Challenge.

So forces act on the part C masses, that accelerate the C masses.

However, there is this part A in the way of part C on its way to Earth. A has 10 times the total masses of C and is in fact resting on Earth. A also consists of many masses in the form of structural elements of similar type to C.

So C collides with A. What happens? To keep it simple, it is only one little element (mass) of C, lets call it C1, that contacts another little element (mass) of A, let's call it A1 at beginning of collision. The other masses of C and A do not collide with anything, but as all C masses are one way or another connected to C1, they will be affected. Same in A.

The purpose of The Heiwa Challenge is to find out what happens to C1 and the other C masses and to A1 and the other A masses.

Some people believe (there is no evidence) that little C1 and the other C masses some way or another can one-way crush down A1 and all the other A masses. They believe this as somebody has (dis)informed them so. They have not checked the info provided to them! This happens often - you can say there is an info war.

Little C1 and the other C masses are, on the other hand, held together - connected - in various ways and these connections may break when forces/energy are acting upon them in, e.g. a collision. When the C connections are broken, part C is in principle destroyed. Its many masses are disconnected from one another and cannot do much harm when attracted by Earth.

Same for A.

One reason why part C cannot one-way crush down part A is that the connections in part C fail before the connections in part A and/or part C runs out of energy before breaking all its connections. Many people do not believe that basic fact. They are the losers in the info war.

So that's the reason for The Heiwa Challenge. Build any structure where structural part C one-way crushes a similar structural part A (mass A > mass 10C and much more connections in A than C, of course).

You will learn a lot, e.g. that part C cannot one-way crush down part A assisted by gravity only.

Myriad explained the collapse so clearly that an intelligent child could understand it. Perhaps that child could explain it to you, as no adult can. The engineering community does not believe that the collapsing mass ran out of energy. Real engineers have, in fact, USED CALCULATIONS to demonstrate that the energy powering the collapse does not "run out."

Your echo Bill Smith has run away from a very simple question. I repeatedly ask him if it matters if the contents of C1, the first floor to hit A97, are light or heavy. He is terribly confused about this matter, among many others. You, on the other hand, are in partial agreement with real engineers. They say it doesn't make any difference, and you agree. There is still that small disagreement between you and people who can think. The real engineers point out that A97 will be crushed by floors C1-13, while you believe that twenty or so floors could fall without doing significant damage on supports designed to bear the load of one floor.

 

[FineWine]

Heiwa.. you are never going to get an educated response from the amoeba's that infest this place.

They get it perfectly, and are well aware you are perfectly correct.

But you are truly the coyote in a prairie dog village, and they keep their heads down

Well said! I have noticed that no one here ever points out what Heiwa gets wrong.

Your contest entry is excellent. Ultima1 retains a slight lead, but you have shown that you are his peer.

Yes, real engineers understand that Heiwa is "perfectly correct." They are just frustrated that their silly calculations prove him to be absurdly wrong ALL THE TIME. Your inability to comprehend anything provides wonderful insulation from reality.

 

[Minadin]

Well, stop laughing and start to build a structure where part C destroys part A according to The Heiwa Challenge rules ... and prove me wrong.

It seems you agree that part C consists of many masses, i.e. is not one solid, rigid chunk of whatever. Actually part C is most air but you can remove the air and fill it with other stuff! But don't forget! You have to do the same with part A.

There have already been models proposed.

What weighs more, a ton of rubble or a ton of intact building?

 

[Heiwa]

Myriad explained the collapse so clearly that an intelligent child could understand it. Perhaps that child could explain it to you, as no adult can. The engineering community does not believe that the collapsing mass ran out of energy. Real engineers have, in fact, USED CALCULATIONS to demonstrate that the energy powering the collapse does not "run out."

Your echo Bill Smith has run away from a very simple question. I repeatedly ask him if it matters if the contents of C1, the first floor to hit A97, are light or heavy. He is terribly confused about this matter, among many others. You, on the other hand, are in partial agreement with real engineers. They say it doesn't make any difference, and you agree. There is still that small disagreement between you and people who can think. The real engineers point out that A97 will be crushed by floors C1-13, while you believe that twenty or so floors could fall without doing significant damage on supports designed to bear the load of one floor.

Myriad has great difficulties with his structure entered in The Heiwa Challenge - see other thread. He has not yet identified what element fails first at initial contact and what the first contact really is! Is it an element in upper part C or in lower part A? And how much energy is required to do it? Or is it just a connection (another element) between elements?
Therefore Myriad cannot predict what happens next! What element is then failing?

Myriad is treating a complete floor as one element and allows it, C1, to contact the top floor, A97, of the lower part A. Neither C1 nor A97 is damaged! So what element is damaged first?

Vertical support columns? Where? Or connections? Where? Answer that to start with!

It would appear that it is a support element between C1 and C2 that fails first, while part A - the lower structure remains - unaffected. That's a good start. And then all other support elements between C1 and C2 fail and C2 may drop and contact C1. What happens then?