no serial numbers were identified from flight 77

[beachnut]

Beachnut,

I'm directing my question to you, Apathoid, Reheat, and 911files because you're all exceptionally knowledgeable about planes. Apathoid pretty much explained what I wanted to know, but he didn't fill in all the details for someone (like me) who knows squat about the airlines industry.

Are serial numbers ever important for a crash investigator? Does the FDR have a number that connects it to a specific plane? Apathoid has stated that parts are interchangeable, so do the serial numbers of certain parts ever show conclusively the exact flight involved?

The "truther" frauds pretend that there is a mystery about the identities of the planes that were hijacked on 9/11. I keep reminding them that air traffic controllers tracked those flights closely. But, should more serial-numbered parts have been found? As I ask this question, I keep wondering why the imaginary conspiracy wouldn't simply provide whatever serial numbers they require.

If you found the engine the problem in an accident checking the serial number to match it to maintenance records would be wise as Apathoid pointed out the parts are interchangeable and there could me mistakes. So knowing the history of an engine and having the correct engine could be important. So yes serial numbers can be important to pin point history and know what if any difference or history contributed to an accident.

The serial numbers would not identify the plane they would identify the part being on the plane if records are kept. 911lairs have it messed up.

Take an engine that shows increased fuel flow and higher EGT readings; just slight increases. Then there is an accident. Knowing the correct engine and having its history could be important to make recommendations and help determine cause.

If an electrical part causes and accident knowing the serial number could pin point the problem to a change in the manufacture of the part and that could be the problem. You can use serial numbers to see the history of the part! It is important in an accident when a part causes the accident.

Serial numbers otherwise are an academic exercise or collected in case a part is found to be a cause later; not used to identify planes unless you have no idea where the plane came from.

The FDR should be logged by serial number to an airframe I think. The FDR is so easy to match to an exact plane because it has the data from 25 plus hours of flight from the plane it was installed in. It tracks hundreds and sometimes thousands of parameters for a specific plane. The FDR found in an accident would prove which plane due to data not the serial number.

Even Dan Rather and CBS news could not mess up the identiy of the planes on 911. Where to the 911liars say all the people are from the four flights? DNA shows where two sets of passengers ended up and 911liars have to be the most heartless liars around to make up false ideas with no evidence.

The only reason we see serial numbers in NTSB accident reports is due to the fact the reports can't be used in a court. The NTSB can't do accident reports on crimes. But to get the correct version of this look up NTSB and courts with some key words.

For instance this is another take on NTSB reports, what the Air Force calls privilege.

Private litigants must prove the cause of the crash to a jury without the benefit of the conclusions of the NTSB accident investigations. Many courts have ...

 

[Reheat]

I will only add a couple of comments to beachnut's. Col. George Nelson is the one who started this stuff about no aircraft part numbers. He was correct that they are normally collected, but for ACCIDENTS in order to determine if that part might have caused or contributed to the ACCIDENT. Obviously, the aircraft on 9/11 were not accidents, therefore, the FBI was the lead investigating agency with the NTSB providing assistance as required.

He sites his experience as a pencil pusher at PACAF Hqs. during the SEA conflict. In some cases where there was no wingman, single pilot, non-radar environment, etc.... serial numbers were needed to positively identify the aircraft, even tho' the Squadron knew who it likely was.

Otherwise, serial numbers are not needed and certainly not required.

 

[Alt+F4]

I ask because I'm puzzled by the demand for serial numbers. If this whole thing was faked, if the DNA was planted and a bomb went off and the ATC and FDNY and NIST and FBI were all in on it...surely it would be a trivial matter to make sure that any plane parts that were planted were properly labeled?

Good question? Any answer "truthers"?

 

[apathoid]

I'm directing my question to you, Apathoid, Reheat, and 911files because you're all exceptionally knowledgeable about planes. Apathoid pretty much explained what I wanted to know, but he didn't fill in all the details for someone (like me) who knows squat about the airlines industry.

Are serial numbers ever important for a crash investigator? Does the FDR have a number that connects it to a specific plane? Apathoid has stated that parts are interchangeable, so do the serial numbers of certain parts ever show conclusively the exact flight involved?

Beachnut did a good job of explaining how SN's are useful for a crash investigator, as the investigation could reveal a "rogue" part.

Basically a serial number gives vendors and aircraft maintenance programs the ability to track the life of a particular part, nothing more and nothing less. Many parts are not serialized(everything from tires, fasteners, electrical connectors, most relays, most light bulbs, hydraulic/pneumatic lines, cables, wire harnesses, floor boards, lavatory mirrors, partitions, window shades, etc, etc, etc.) If parts must be overhauled at a certain interval, such as a landing gear assembly or an engine, the airline must know what aircraft the part is installed on so the maintance can be performed. For this reason, we have tracking systems that should identify what PN/SN combinations are installed on a given airplane, for key assemblies. Some parts are life limited, so the same situation applies(but not all life limited parts are serialized, such as Oxygen generators and FDR/CVR locator beacons).

In a perfect world, maintenance records should show what serial number/part number combination was installed on a particular airplane, or even for a particular flight, for parts that are tracked. Notice, I said "combination": a serial number is practically worthless unless you also know the part number. It's worth mentioning here that not all serialized aircraft parts are tracked(throw away items like pressure switches and circuit breakers for instance, as well repairable parts not critical to safety of flight like coffeemakers and chillers, etc). But this is not always the case. Alot of the times, we can't even manage to figure out what part numbers are installed, let alone serial numbers. So quite often, in an effort to avoid misconfiguration issues and FAA fines, we will periodically do part number/serial number surveys for key aircraft, engine and APU components. These surveys in my experience almost always turn up tracking discrepancies.

The reasons for these discrepancies could be any number of things. Usually it's because the mechanic doing the work didn't log the SN off/SN on in the logbook or job card "description of work performed field". You're supposed to write something like the following:

C/W NBR 1 E/C per OPN 0123A. SN OFF:0123, SN ON: 3456. OK FOR SVC.

But sometimes, he/she simply forgets to write the serial number. Sometimes you use so much space writing everything you did, theres no room to recored the SN. Sometimes the serial numbers are not legible or easy to see once a part has been installed. Sometimes poor pendmanship will see a serial number change a la "Chinese Whispers". Sometimes, the mechanic does the paperwork properly but the ball gets dropped elsewhere. Another reason is many times during troubleshooting parts get "shotgunned" between positions(say Left Air Data Computer will get swapped with the Right ADC) or even swapped between aircraft. You're supposed put everything back in its initial configuration once done, but this doesn't always happen.

Our tracking system at my airline is far from perfect, and I work for one of the biggest(and best!!). I was talking with a shop avionics mechanic when I went to pick up a part the other day. The first thing he told me was that he hoped the unit in question was a "rogue unit" they have been trying to find for weeks. Apparently, there is a Static Inverter in our system(that is, installed on one of our airplanes) that has been to the shop about 25 times and back to the manufacturer about 6 times. They didnt realize this until recently, they also have no idea what aircraft its installed on. When it finally does make it back to the shop, it'll be scrapped.

The "truther" frauds pretend that there is a mystery about the identities of the planes that were hijacked on 9/11. I keep reminding them that air traffic controllers tracked those flights closely. But, should more serial-numbered parts have been found? As I ask this question, I keep wondering why the imaginary conspiracy wouldn't simply provide whatever serial numbers they require.

The whole serial number thing is a red herring to explain away all the evidence. The only people who peddle this SN matching nonsense are know-nothing dunces. And I imagine you are right about the NWO, they wouldn't make a mistake of this magnitude, in my experience.

And one last thing: Do we know for a fact that no such serial number matching was done? Just because it's not on Youtube......

 

[Jackanory]

Having spent numerous years directly employed within the commercial aircraft manufacturing environment (UK) and having spent week in week out physically sourcing, identifying, confirming, preparing, fitting and testing all manner of aircraft parts, I will simply say that parts are in the most interchangeable.

A 757 built on a production line, as would have happened, would be supplied with a 'kit' at each fitting bay/line. Every kit would be identical (barring the odd colour code change).

For example - An aleron on the port wing fitted last week will have the same part number as one fitted to a port wing this week.

A refuel coupling fitted to the starboard wing of an A320 last year will have the same part number as one fitted today.

If a modification to a part is made then that may produce an addendum to the part number but essentially most parts to commercial aircraft are identical in manufacture for that specific model of aircraft - producing the same part number. The date of the manufacture of that specific part may be different - much the same as a chocolate Mars Bar. Made the same, packaged the same, callories the same. fat content the same - different date but still a Mars Bar!

Part numbers/ serial numbers are essentially for the build processs, records, and for maintenance purposes.

I tried explaning this to Ultima1/Roger some posts back but he just cant read.

 

[Homeland Insurgency]

Danielle O'Brien, air traffic controller in Dulles. September 11th, 2001 ~8:18 AM: Airport air traffic controller Danielle O'Brien (Dulles) handled the routine, on-time departure of American Flight 77:

"I slid over to the controller on my left, Tom Howell, and I asked him, 'Do you see an unidentified plane near southwest of Dulles? she remembered. "And his response was, 'Yes. Oh, my gosh, yes, look how fast he is.'" In the room, it was almost a sense of relief," O'Brien said. "This must be a fighter. This must be one of our guys sent in, scrambled to patrol our capital, and to protect our president." O'Brien had already handed Flight 77 off to a different air traffic control center. "And we waited. And we waited," O'Brien recalled. "And your heart is just beating out of your chest. And then the Washington National Airport controllers came over our speakers in our room and said, 'Dulles, hold all of our inbound traffic. The Pentagon's been hit. 9:06 AM"

Officials at Cleveland Center rush word to Washington: Hijackers have another flight.

At the Federal Aviation Administration's command center in Herndon, Va., Delta Flight 1989 joins a growing list of suspicious jets. Some of their flight numbers will be scrawled on a white dry-erase board throughout the morning. Eventually, the list will grow to 11.

One, a TWA flight, refuses to land in Pittsburgh and wants to fly on toward Washington. Another, a Midwest Express flight, disappears from radar over West Virginia. And three jets over the Atlantic Ocean are sending out distress signals, the Coast Guard reports.

Top managers at the FAA's command center fear the worst: Jets all over the country — including some over the oceans — are being hijacked. One after another.

Just a few of many 2,000 lb gorillas in the room debunkers keep trying to ignore.

 

[apathoid]

Officials at Cleveland Center rush word to Washington: Hijackers have another flight.

At the Federal Aviation Administration's command center in Herndon, Va., Delta Flight 1989 joins a growing list of suspicious jets. Some of their flight numbers will be scrawled on a white dry-erase board throughout the morning. Eventually, the list will grow to 11.

One, a TWA flight, refuses to land in Pittsburgh and wants to fly on toward Washington. Another, a Midwest Express flight, disappears from radar over West Virginia. And three jets over the Atlantic Ocean are sending out distress signals, the Coast Guard reports.

Top managers at the FAA's command center fear the worst: Jets all over the country — including some over the oceans — are being hijacked. One after another

Just a few of many 2,000 lb gorillas in the room debunkers keep trying to ignore.

I don't know why you keep repeating this, especially the bolded part. You see, all of those other flights landed safely and are accounted for. AA77 didn't and isn't. Where did it go? Any ideas?

And this thread is about serial numbers. I know it's difficult to stay on topic after your little theories are crushed into nano-particles, but at least try.

 

[Dog Town]

Just a few of many 2,000 lb gorillas in the room debunkers keep trying to ignore.

Only to twoofers!

 

[tsig]

Having spent numerous years directly employed within the commercial aircraft manufacturing environment (UK) and having spent week in week out physically sourcing, identifying, confirming, preparing, fitting and testing all manner of aircraft parts, I will simply say that parts are in the most interchangeable.

A 757 built on a production line, as would have happened, would be supplied with a 'kit' at each fitting bay/line. Every kit would be identical (barring the odd colour code change).

For example - An aleron on the port wing fitted last week will have the same part number as one fitted to a port wing this week.

A refuel coupling fitted to the starboard wing of an A320 last year will have the same part number as one fitted today.

If a modification to a part is made then that may produce an addendum to the part number but essentially most parts to commercial aircraft are identical in manufacture for that specific model of aircraft - producing the same part number. The date of the manufacture of that specific part may be different - much the same as a chocolate Mars Bar. Made the same, packaged the same, callories the same. fat content the same - different date but still a Mars Bar!

Part numbers/ serial numbers are essentially for the build processs, records, and for maintenance purposes.

I tried explaning this to Ultima1/Roger some posts back but he just cant read.

Thanks for an informative post. I worked at Ford and we built thousands of vehicles with parts that had the same serial number. The only number unique to the vehicle was the VIN number but I don't think they use them on planes.

 

[Homeland Insurgency]

You see, all of those other flights landed safely and are accounted for.

No I don't see. Not yet.

I didn't even know they were all ever identified.

Will you be showing this anytime soon? This thread is getting kind of long.

 

[apathoid]

No I don't see. Not yet.

I didn't even know they were all ever identified.

Will you be showing this anytime soon? This thread is getting kind of long.

You could be right. It's entirely plausible for families not to notice loved ones missing, or airlines not to notice airplanes missing, or the media not reporting on 11 other crashes. You could be onto something!!

 

[Homeland Insurgency]

You could be right. It's entirely plausible for families not to notice loved ones missing, or airlines not to notice airplanes missing, or the media not reporting on 11 other crashes. You could be onto something!!

I could be right?

Can you account for all of the planes that were thought to have been hijacked on 9/11 or not?

Start with the ones that were sending out distress signals over the Atlantic.

What flights were those?

What flight was the Phantom flight the fighters were chasing?

You said they were all accounted for.

Where?

 

[Baylor]

Delta 1989 - accounted for.

Other than that, I don't know what planes were reported to 've been hijacked.

 

[Homeland Insurgency]

Thanks for an informative post. I worked at Ford and we built thousands of vehicles with parts that had the same serial number. The only number unique to the vehicle was the VIN number but I don't think they use them on planes.

Part numbers and serial numbers are two different things.

A part number might help identify the make of a plane.

A serial number might help identify a plane among planes of the same make.

A serial number on a part might show in the case of a crash when the part was changed if you reference maintenance records.

None of these things are offered as evidence of anything said to have been lost on 9/11.

 

[apathoid]

I could be right?

Can you account for all of the planes that were thought to have been hijacked on 9/11 or not?

Start with the ones that were sending out distress signals over the Atlantic.

What flights were those?

What flight was the Phantom flight the fighters were chasing?

You said they were all accounted for.

Where?

You're actually serious? Are you postulating a theory here, or "just asking questions"? Any chance you'll start making sense?

I'm just asking questions.

 

[Homeland Insurgency]

Delta 1989 - accounted for.

BINGO! Give that girl a prize.

Now...one down ten to go according to the USA Today report.

Other than that, I don't know what planes were reported to 've been hijacked.

Yeah that's what I said. They were never identified.

Welcome aboard.

 

[Baylor]

BINGO! Give that girl a prize.

Now...one down ten to go according to the USA Today report.



Yeah that's what I said. They were never identified.

Welcome aboard.

I have no idea why you get a kick out of acting obnoxious on an internet forum. Your insults are unimaginative and riddled with grammar errors. Perhaps you can put the childish nonsense aside and tell us the other planes that you claim were reported to 've been hijacked and its significance to this thread.

 

[Homeland Insurgency]

You're actually serious? Are you postulating a theory here, or "just asking questions"? Any chance you'll start making sense?

I'm just asking questions.

No.

You're just postulating everything that day is accounted for.

Because that's all you and your story can do.

Unless of course you can do better than you have so far.

I won't hold my breath debunker.

 

[BenBurch]

Only a real idiot EXPECTS everything to be accounted for in a disaster of this magnitude.

Why is it at all surprising that we cannot tell you what became of the toilet tissue holder in the first class lavatory?

 

[apathoid]

Delta 1989 - accounted for.

Other than that, I don't know what planes were reported to 've been hijacked.

[pedant]
Actually, thats ship 189. There is no correlation between ship numbers and flight numbers....so I guess by HI's definition, its still unaccounted for.

[/pedant]