Galileo
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Foster could have been killed by a lone nut, just like JFK, RFK, Huey Long, Spencer Perseval and MLK.
What's your evidence of a conspiracy?
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The Death of Vince Foster - What Really Happened? (1995)
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Foster could have been killed by a lone nut, just like JFK, RFK, Huey Long, Spencer Perseval and MLK.
What's your evidence of a conspiracy?
Sure, he also could have been killed by a space alien with a death ray from Planet QX119, but there's no evidence for that, is there?
None, because there wasn't a conspiracy.
Stop deliberately misconstruing SP's words. You're talking like Foster's state of mind was one of uninterrupted serenity before he died. It wasn't. He was despondent and considering resigning his job. Being in a depressed funk to the point of bursting into tears at one's dinner table in front of one's wife (which is what Vince Foster did in the week before he died) and suddenly appearing to be in "better spirits" or even "calm" the day someone dies of an apparent self-inflicted gunshot wound is perfectly consistent with suicidal behavior. We spelled this out for you upthread.
BAC, stop regurgitating whatever you picked up from your no doubt dog-eared copy of that Chistopher Ruddy book and passing it off as critical thinking.
Galileo
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Foster was found laying dead with no gun in his hand. He must have been shot. It was either a lone nut or a conpiracy.
Jeebus, you make me want to reach through the screen and shake you by the collar.
No, you're just factually 100% wrong. He was found with the gun in his hand.
You know so little about this case, I think you should remove yourself from this thread and let BAC do the rocking on this hobby horse.
Galileo
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No, the first witness to the scene found that no gun was in his hand. It must have been placed there later. That's what the evidence says. Please follow the evidence, and it will lead you to truth.
No, if you read the report, you'd know that the guy who found Foster's body specifically stated he focused on his head and face and not his limbs before he went to get help. He said he didn't think there was a gun but there could have been. The police found a gun in his hand.
Stop making things up.
BeAChooser
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Then why are you bothering to even debate me? I tend to ignore total loonies. Haven't yet decided about you.
BeAChooser
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For the record, I don't have Christopher Ruddy's book. Never even read it.
Any other strawmen you'd like to throw out before we get back to discussing the actual facts?
Oh that's right ... you don't want to do that. You're into ignoring the facts.
Then why are you bothering to even debate me? I tend to ignore total loonies. Haven't yet decided about you.
OK, let's say your theory is true. Everything, from the dreaded ambulatory oven mitt to corrupt medical examiners.
How many people were involved in the conspiracy and subsequent cover up? Give me a number.
BeAChooser
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I won't use the word {wrong} to describe you. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. You must have just misunderstood what the person who found Foster's body is reported to have said. You must have just failed to read or understand what I posted earlier in this thread on that subject. Or perhaps you are just a little delusional because you are so vested in the "it was a suicide" defense of the Clinton administration by Fiske and Starr? In any case, here are the real facts concerning CW's statements ... offered only to help you become a better skeptic. Note that these accounts don't agree with your version AT ALL. In fact, I suspect you can't back up your version with a single source.
The civilian who first discovered Foster's body, is identified as "CW" in his FBI interviews and deposition. Contrary to your claim, he has adamantly maintained that Foster did not have a gun in his hands and that he looked carefully at Foster's arms and hands.
For example, in an radio interview (http://www.apfn.org/apfn/vince.htm ) seven years after Foster's death, CW said Foster was found "Face straight up. Hands on each side of his body straight away." Both claims are inconsistent with the photos released by Fiske and Starr ... photos whose legitimacy was even questioned by Starr's own top investigator after he quit in disgust.
CW said in that interview "I looked to see if he had something in his hands that he could defend himself with - maybe a rock or something like that. ... snip ... that's why I was so adamant and so sure [that Foster had no gun]. Because I clearly looked at both hands. And they were straight down by his sides, fully extended, straight as can be, and both hands were palm up."
And it's not like CW just saw the body then ran to get help. He's has stated in his various interviews that he stood over the body between one and two minutes. So you see, oldhat, you are simply mistaken about CW's actions and his degree of uncertainty in this matter.
And as I pointed out earlier in this thread (you must have just missed it), Congressman Burton stated on the floor of the House of Representatives (http://whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/FOSTER_COVERUP/burton_cbs.html ), that he and two other Congressmen went to CW's house and took a sworn statement from CW. Burton said "When the confidential witness discovered the body, he looked very carefully. He was within 18 inches of Mr. Foster's face. He looked very carefully and saw no gun in either hand. He was very clear in his statement, in the sworn statement before me and the FBI, that when he found Foster, both hands were palm up with the thumbs pointed out away from the body. When the police arrived on the scene, they found his right hand palm down with the thumb pointed in, the gun on the trigger finger, and the gun was partially obscured by his hand and his leg." If we believe Burton, then very clearly, CW said he look carefully at "the limbs" and he was certain there was no gun. In which case, the body was tampered with between the time he saw it and when the photos that Fiske and Starr published were made. In which case, you are {wrong}.
CW's sworn testimony disagrees with the government's claims in other ways, too. The government claimed the body could not have been moved to the park because the vegetation around it was not trampled. But Burton points out that CW said the vegetation was trampled. Also, CW told the FBI he observed a wine cooler bottle near the body when he arrived. But Park Police claimed not to have found one. And Burton states that CW said that on leaving the park, "he looked inside the white Nissan parked in the lot and saw a half-full package of wine cooler bottles, very similar to the one beside the body, a briefcase, and a suit jacket that looked similar to Foster's suit pants." Significant, given that Foster's car was not a white Nissan. It was a gray Honda.
In fact, CW is not the only person to question the car evidence claimed by authorities in this case. Patrick Knowlton had a lot to say about that (http://nick.assumption.edu/WebVAX/WWeekly/WW18Dec95Foster.html and http://www.fbicover-up.com/Miquel/Miquel.htm and http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1282/is_n24_v49/ai_20106339/pg_2/?tag=content;col1 ). Knowlton said that when he stopped at the park to use the *facilities*, a suspicious-looking man in a blue car appeared to be monitoring him. He also made some observations about the cars in the parking lot at the time Foster was supposedly dead. Those observations do not match the government's story. For example, he said he saw an older brown car in the parking spot where the government claimed Foster's newer grey car was found. After viewing photos of Foster's grey 1989 Honda, he told the FBI that the car he saw in that spot was definitely not Foster's. And other witnesses corroborate Knowlton's version. Not one witness said they saw a grey car. They ALL (even police and medical personnel) say that the car was brown.
Moreover, Knowlton says the FBI's "302" report of his interview with them claims he said things he did not say and alters the substance of things he did say ... all in an effort to make his eyewitness testimony less significant and to dismiss him as a witness. And he has charged that the FBI, Fiske and Starr attempted to intimidate and discredit him. That's a charge that Starr's own top investigator finds credible. That's a charge that the three judge panel monitoring the IOC apparently found credible enough to order Starr attach an addendum by Knowlton making that charge to his final report. An order that Starr then ignored when he released the report to the media.
But back to CW, man of the hour. Appears you're the last person who should be chastising someone for knowing "so little about this case".
Still waiting.
BeAChooser
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Still waiting to hear you say you were *mistaken* about CW's testimony.
Yes I was mistaken about CW's testimony and the oven mitt and Ken Starr secretly working for Bill Clinton.
Now please tell me how many agencies and people were involved in the conspiracy, in your estimation. Give me a number.
P.S. Why do none of your links cite primary sources, i.e. the investigations? Your links range from Holocaust-denying and rabidly anti-Semitic WhatReallyHappened.com to the black helicopter boosters at the prestigious American Patriot Friends Network to the non-existent Washington Weekly, which appeared to be some kind of Bircher newsletter from 10 years ago. Can't you come up with something better than that slop?
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The Central Scrutinizer
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BeAChooser
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You don't consider taped interviews with Starr's own top investigator a primary source?
You don't consider a taped interview with Patrick Knowlton a primary source?
The truth is that you haven't discredited a single thing I've posted, OH.
The truth is that I caught you red handed completely fabricating witness statements in your desperate effort to make this go away.
ANYONE can go out and easily verify the facts I've noted from multiple, reputable sources. The truth is that you have backed yourself into a corner and now your only defense is to whine *it was suicide* and CLAIM (without any substantiation) that all *my* sources are "slop". But I really think a discerning reader can ferret out the lack of truth in your claim. In fact, I think you've actually helped me make my case regarding Vince Foster.
BeAChooser
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BeAChooser
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BeAChooser
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Foster supposedly left the White House without leaving a video record or log entry showing that he left the White House.
When emergency workers first examined Foster's car in the Fort Marcy Park parking lot, they found the car doors locked. Yet when police checked it, less than an hour later, the doors were unlocked. Park Police searched Foster's pockets at Fort Marcy Park and did not find any car keys. But those keys turned up later in his pockets after Craig Livingstone of Filegate fame, who according to Livingston was hired by Hillary, visited the morgue to identify a body that had already been identified earlier. When Livingstone was questioned by Fiske's people, he gave statements that contradicted the account being given by the White House. A law enforcement source at the interrogation was quoted saying "it was clear to everyone in the room, including (Livingstone's) attorney, that he was not telling the truth". Yet when Livingstone asked to stop the questioning, Fiske's people let him leave. Then during a second interview, his story was more in line with White House claimed happened. At the second meeting, Livingstone's new attorney told investigators that Livingstone had been confused about the times, but had written a memo-to-file detailing the chronology of his activities. But then he claimed the memo had *disappeared*. When investigators asked for a set of all Livingstone's memos to file, they were told he hadn't written any before or since. But despite all this, Fiske accepted Livingstone's account at face value.
Hillary's Chief of Staff, Margaret Williams, was observed by the Secret Service removing thick folders full of material from Foster's office just a few hours after his death ... before Park Police sealed the office. She later denied under oath removing anything from Foster's office. But she had no official duties in Foster's office. The sealing of the office was apparently delayed by Hillary and Nussbaum. It's a matter record that Hillary called Williams at 10:13 pm the night Foster died and that right after that conversation, Williams went to Foster's office. After searching the office, Williams called Hillary back and they talked for 11 minutes. Yet, neither Fiske or Starr ever questioned Williams.
At 11:19 pm Hillary called a New York lawyer named Susan Thomases. Three minutes after Williams spoke to Hillary following her search of Foster's office, she also called Thomases and spoke with her for 20 minutes. When first confronted by the Congressional committee, Williams denied having called Thomases at all. She and her lawyer stated that her phone records were not available. The committee obtained the records a week later, and they proved that Williams lied. Neither Fiske or Starr ever interviewed the mysterious Thomases either.
Williams later admitted to Whitewater investigators that Hillary ordered her to take sensitive documents from Foster's office two days after his death and store them in her bedroom closet for safekeeping. What a coincidence that a document connected to Whitewater, with Hillary's fingerprints on it, magically appeared in the White House residence a few days after the statute of limitation on the Whitewater matter expired.
Patsy Thomasson, director of the White House's Office of Administration, was also in Foster's office during the same timeframe and likewise had no duties in that office. Thomasson sat at Foster's desk, went through his files, and reportedly looked for the combination to Foster's safe. Mack McLarty, White House Chief of Staff, told reporters that Foster's office did not have a safe but the final IOC report admits he did. two envelopes reported to be in the safe by Foster's secretary, Deborah Gorham, addressed to Janet Reno and to William Kennedy III, disappeared.
Bernard Nussbaum went into Foster's office before the Park Police arrived. He was Foster's superior so perhaps he had a reason. But it was something involving Hillary since numerous phone calls between Hillary and Nussbaum were logged in the hours after Foster's death. When Park Police arrived, Nussbaum prevented them from entering the office, citing "national security". Yet he had allowed Patsy Thomasson into the office even though she had NO security clearance.
So how many people were involved, OldHat? As many as needed to explain the curious behavior of these Clinton administration officials and their lies?