The Death of Vince Foster - What Really Happened? (1995)

[Galileo]

Uh, no, sorry. oldhat's assertion is common knowledge within the psychological community. I have a BS in Psychology, and this something you pretty much learn the first week in an abnormal psych class.

But since I doubt you'll take my word for it, here are some linksyou can look at. You'll notice the numerous references to calmness after making the decision to kill oneself.

I mean, really, it's laughable that anyone would scoff at this.

Furthermore, Foster didn't have to be depressed or diagnosed with depression to want to kill himself. Check under the "Causes" sections of the links I've posted. There are other reasons why Foster may have wanted to commit suicide, although he certainly was depressed, so your argument continues to weaken. When you exhibit obvious warning signs of suicidal behavior along with the fact that he's physically linked to the gun, then it's pretty obvious how he died.

So Foster killed himself because he was calm? Check!

 

[oldhat]

So Foster killed himself because he was calm? Check!

No, you're really belying your ignorance about how people with mental illness behave. The stereotype of someone moping around in a bathrobe crying "woe is me," is just that, a stereotype. Most people with depression appear more or less normal. They get dressed. They go to work. But their inner lives are hell. Depression isn't "being sad." Sadness and depression are two separate things.

Vince Foster killed himself because:

1. He had clinical depression due to work stress. He felt he was a failure at work due to the "Travelgate" non-scandal and he felt persecuted by the WSJ.
2. He and his doctor hadn't reached a therapeutic blood level of Trazodone. This can take anywhere from two weeks to two months or more, Foster was taking Trazodone for days.
3. Most crucially, he had instant access to a firearm.

The risk of a suicidal person completing suicide goes up astronomically if that person has a firearm at hand. This is why if a suicidal person calls a suicide prevention line or 911, the first question the operator asks is "Do you have a firearm with you?"

I want to ask Galileo and BAC again, do either of you know who Charles Koch and David Brock are? They are two important figures when it comes to the creation of the right wing's Clinton mythology. You're not getting the full picture of how the Vince Foster suicide story got started if you don't know who they are.

 

[Galileo]

No, you're really belying your ignorance about how people with mental illness behave. The stereotype of someone moping around in a bathrobe crying "woe is me," is just that, a stereotype. Most people with depression appear more or less normal. They get dressed. They go to work. But their inner lives are hell. Depression isn't "being sad." Sadness and depression are two separate things.

Vince Foster killed himself because:

1. He had clinical depression due to work stress. He felt he was a failure at work due to the "Travelgate" non-scandal and he felt persecuted by the WSJ.
2. He and his doctor hadn't reached a therapeutic blood level of Trazodone. This can take anywhere from two weeks to two months or more, Foster was taking Trazodone for days.
3. Most crucially, he had instant access to a firearm.

The risk of a suicidal person completing suicide goes up astronomically if that person has a firearm at hand. This is why if a suicidal person calls a suicide prevention line or 911, the first question the operator asks is "Do you have a firearm with you?"

I want to ask Galileo and BAC again, do either of you know who Charles Koch and David Brock are? They are two important figures when it comes to the creation of the right wing's Clinton mythology. You're not getting the full picture of how the Vince Foster suicide story got started if you don't know who they are.

Foster did not have mental illness. That is just an ad hoc explanation.

Foster was probably taken out because he was honest and knew too much about the Waco mass murder and the FBI involvement in the '93 WTC bombing.

 

[SmartyPants]

So Foster killed himself because he was calm? Check!

Uh, no. This has already been explained. He didn't kill himself because he was calm. Assuming it was depression and the current, dire circumstances of his life (Causes), he killled himself. The decision to kill himself ridded him (Symptom) of the anxiety of trying to make such a decision and the other circumstances of his life (Causes). He was no longer anxious about his state because "he knew it (his life) was going to end soon." No more worries (Symptom) about his life (Cause). He could breathe easier (Symptom).

Didn't kill himself BECAUSE he was calm. K, ya got that? I assume you can tell the difference between "Causes" and "Symptons." Or maybe not.

Also, what oldhat said.

 

[SmartyPants]

Foster did not have mental illness. That is just an ad hoc explanation.

Again, Foster didn't need to be diagnosed with a mental illness in order to kill himself. Check the "Causes" sections of the links I've posted for you. I've noticed it's gone from his actual diagnoses to the broad field of mental illness, by the way.

Foster was probably taken out because he was honest and knew too much about the Waco mass murder and the FBI involvement in the '93 WTC bombing.

Are you going to provide evidence of this? Are going to knock down the suicide evidence we've provided? Or are you just going to continue shouting what's clearly not true, hoping we believe it?

 

[oldhat]

I'm not saying Vince Foster had a mental illness to make it sound like he was crrrrrraaaaazzzzy or expand the definition of what he had. He wasn't crazy. But he was clinically depressed. I was trying to put his condition into the context of what it was -- a serious medical condition that can be fatal if left untreated -- and what is wasn't. Like a simple case of the blues.

But do you know what is crrrrrraaaaazzzzy? Believing a patently untrue conspiracy theory about the Clintons cooked up by David Brock and his paymasters at the American Spectator. And if you don't believe me that he helped knowingly invent the Vince Foster conspiracy theory, read his book. The one he wrote after the crisis of conscience he had, after spreading so many absurd lies about the Clintons. Utter nonsense like them running Columbian cocaine out of the govenor's mansion and murdering people with freight trains. Yeah, freight trains.

Crrrrrraaaaaazzzzy!

 

[Galileo]

Uh, no. This has already been explained. He didn't kill himself because he was calm. Assuming it was depression and the current, dire circumstances of his life (Causes), he killled himself. The decision to kill himself ridded him (Symptom) of the anxiety of trying to make such a decision and the other circumstances of his life (Causes). He was no longer anxious about his state because "he knew it (his life) was going to end soon." No more worries (Symptom) about his life (Cause). He could breathe easier (Symptom).

Didn't kill himself BECAUSE he was calm. K, ya got that? I assume you can tell the difference between "Causes" and "Symptons." Or maybe not.

Also, what oldhat said.

so all calm people have symptoms of clinical depression and are a threat to commit suicide at a moment's notice?

That would make a good defense for a common murderer.

"Jury, the person who was killed was calm! He had clinical depression and committed suicide! It was not a murder!"

 

[BeAChooser]

When you exhibit obvious warning signs of suicidal behavior along with the fact that he's physically linked to the gun, then it's pretty obvious how he died.

And what were those obvious warning signs ... that no one apparently noticed until after that meeting in the Whitehouse a week later?

And by the way, can you give us the "obvious" explanation for the oven mitt?

 

[oldhat]

And what were those obvious warning signs ... that no one apparently noticed until after that meeting in the Whitehouse a week later?

He had clinical depression, he was carrying a loaded gun around with him. He even wrote a suicide note about how he felt persecuted. Then he killed himself.

What else do you need?

Do you think suicidal people walk around with nooses around their heads and announce their intentions to their co-workers?

Do you know how batty a conspiracy theory has to be if it requires Ken Starr to be in cahoots with Bill Clinton in the cover-up portion? Ken Starr? Do you know how little sense that makes? Were you alive during any portion of the 1990s?

Also, how come you still haven't answered my questions about how David Brock, Charles Koch and Richard Mellon Scaife all tie into the spreading of this rumor? Do you know what the Arkansas Project was?

All you're doing is recycling lies created by Republican partisans with huge axes to grind. Specifially Charles Koch and Richard Mellon Scaife. Ted Olsen literally created this story out of thin air. Read "Blinded By The Right" by David Brock if you're serious about doing "research." I know you won't but it's worth trying.

 

[BeAChooser]

Vince Foster killed himself because:

1. He had clinical depression

ABSOLUTELY FALSE. There has been no evidence offered to prove he had "clinical" depression. NONE. The doctor said his depression was "mild" and situational, which is not the same as "clinical" depression. No one even said he was depressed at all ... until a week after he died ... until after a meeting at the whitehouse that *believers* like you clearly don't want to talk about. A meeting that was supposedly convened to discuss the bogus suicide note, that *believers* like you also don't want to talk about.

2. He and his doctor hadn't reached a therapeutic blood level of Trazodone.

It was at the level needed to help him sleep (the other common use of trazodone that you apparently are just going to ignore) ... which the doctor said Foster called complaining about and which the doctor thought would make Foster feel a "lot better".

Foster was taking Trazodone for days.

FALSE. Foster was only prescribed 30 pills and investigators said there were 29 pills still in the bottle. At least *try* to get the facts right.

3. Most crucially, he had instant access to a firearm.

Now I already posted some questions about the gun ... THAT ALL OF YOU SIMPLY IGNORED. And I can't help but notice that you also don't want to talk about the oven mitt (how'd Foster not get his fingerprints on the gun since he wore no gloves), or the testimony of the first witness' to see Foster's body (there was no gun in Foster's hand), or Dr Haut's report (that the exit wound was in his neck, not his head, and that the wound was made by a low velocity round which is inconsistent with claimed suicide weapon), or the other witness statements (which also all placed the exit wound on the neck and ruled out an exit wound at the back of the head), or Miquel Rodriguez's analysis of the one available photo (which he said shows a wound in the neck).

Let me add more questions. Why was there no blood on the gun, oldhat? Why was there no blood on Foster's hand or the white sleeve of his shirt? Why did witness after witness say there was no blood at the supposed suicide location before the body was moved (surely with the 1" by 1-1/4" hole that Fiske and Starr claimed was in the top of Foster's head there would have been lots of blood all over)? Why was no bullet found despite repeated and extensive searches of the area?

How do you explain the fact that no matching bullets were found for the claimed suicide gun either at Foster's house or in his car? The claimed suicide weapon is a .38 revolver built from parts taken from two guns and has no serial number. Was this really the gun in Foster household like you seem to believe, oldhat? In ALL documents and witness statements in the weeks and months following Foster's death, the gun was described as BLACK. The photos published by the IOC showed it to be BLACK. Yet Lisa Foster testified that the ONLY gun in their house was a chrome plated, "silver" colored one. A little odd, don't you think?

Even more odd is why FBI agents, when interviewing Lisa Foster in an effort to get her to identify the suicide weapon, described the gun to her as "silver colored", not just once but repeatedly? In fact, the agents wrote down that "LISA FOSTER believes that the gun found at Fort Marcy Park may be the silver gun which she brought up with her other belongings when she permanently moved to Washington." You'd think that the agents would have known the gun supposedly found at Fort Marcy Park was black.

You see, there is a lot to this story (just in the gun issue alone) that you are simply ignoring ... because you are DESPERATE to label Foster's death a suicide. One begins to wonder why you are so obviously desperate?

I want to ask Galileo and BAC again, do either of you know who Charles Koch and David Brock are?

Do you know who Ron Brown was, oldhat? You're not getting the full picture of what the Clintons were capable of doing unless you know the facts in that case too.

 

[BeAChooser]

Are going to knock down the suicide evidence we've provided?

SP, you haven't provided any "evidence" at all. But you sure are desperate to ignore a lot. For example, ... that oven mitt ... got an explanation?

 

[BeAChooser]

Do you know how batty a conspiracy theory has to be if it requires Ken Starr to be in cahoots with Bill Clinton in the cover-up portion?

What's the problem, oldhat? Having trouble actually dealing with the facts in the Foster case?

So you think Starr is above suspicion?

Then I assume you can explain the oven mitt? And what Miquel Rodriguez' (Starr's own investigator) had to say about Starr's investigation? And you can explain why Starr failed to tell the three judge panel and the public about an FBI memo to the Director of the FBI written two days after Foster's death stating that the shot was fired into Foster's mouth without leaving an exit wound, which directly contradicts Starr's report which says there was an exit wound over an inch in diameter in the back of the head?

I assume you can explain why it is that Starr told the public that the FBI files in Filegate had been returned to the FBI, when we learned years later, during an interview with IOC Ray, that the files were still in White House hands? Clearly, Starr lied. I assume you can explain why Starr spent just a few minutes questioning Hillary Clinton during his Filegate investigation, even though he had sworn testimony at the time that she was the mastermind behind the activity and had clearly lied about certain facts in the case? He also failed to ask the key witness, Linda Tripp, numerous important questions. Tripp commented about this later on, expressing her surprise at how little he delved into the matter. Most of the missing files in Filegate were discovered not by Starr, but by that little outfit, Judicial Watch. And Starr never did learn who hired Mark Livingstone (you know who he is, don't you?). Turns out it was Hillary ... or so admits Livingstone now. Yet Hillary claimed she didn't even know Mark Livingstone ... even though there were numerous pictures of the two together. Guess Starr never asked her about that.

It's not so implausible that Starr was Clinton's man from the beginning. Afterall, Starr was the name recommended by Janet Reno for the job of IOC, and you can be sure that Janet didn't do anything that Clinton didn't fully vet before hand. The truth is that Starr didn't spend much time investigating anything that didn't involve turning the impeachment of Clinton into just a sex scandal ... which he and Clinton may have known could be minimized by a friendly media. I think that was his purpose.

I think that explains why Starr failed to investigate other far more serious scandals ... like CampaignFinanceGate, Chinagate and Ron Brown's death (which may have been related to the other two). Is it just coicidence that Starr was all ready to close up shop and go home, when the Ron Brown scandal broke and began to get some play by the media and in the black community? Then, all of a sudden, he "discovered" Monica and any rumors that Ron Brown's death wasn't an accident just disappeared from view. My bet is that Clinton and Starr realized that a sleazy sex scandal that probably wouldn't lead to anything would trump a mass murder allegation in the press and public's mind any day of the week. And they were right. And even then, Starr blew the Monica investigation. Rather than trap Clinton with his knowledge of the blue dress' existance and what it showed, he told Clinton they had the dress and thereby lost any chance of catching Clinton committing perjury. I don't believe an honest prosecutor would have done that.

All you're doing is recycling lies created by Republican partisans with huge axes to grind.

The facts I've posted are completely verifiable, oldhat. You haven't posted anything to prove otherwise. You're just unable to explain them ... except by concocting a claim that Foster was "clinically depressed". Just like Fiske and Starr did. And even then you have to completely ignore 99% of the facts I've posted. Just like Fiske and Starr did. Let's see if you address some of questions I asked about the gun and wound ... or you go on ignoring them. Let's see if you do that, or keep posting your David Brock red herring instead of dealing with the facts.

 

[oldhat]

It's not so implausible that Starr was Clinton's man from the beginning.

This is just insane.

So you think Starr is above suspicion?

Yes, I believe he is "above suspicion." I do not believe Ken Starr conspired with Bill Clinton in a contract murder of Vince Foster.

What you're doing is taking bits and pieces of things that don't seem congruous to you, as a layman with no training in psychiatry or forensics, and turning them into a conspiracy. You're refusing to look at the big picture, like your fixation on the Oven Mitt™.

Option 1: A lawyer has been dogged in the press for months because of a political "scandal." He exhibits symptoms of depression and calls his doctor. He is prescribed an anti-depressant but does not take it long enough for it to develop a therapeutic blood level. His wife corroborates the fact that he's been depressed. He, according to the letter he wrote and tore up in frustration, says he feels like a failure. He owns a handgun. He goes to a park and shoots himself with the handgun.

Option 2: The President of the United States hatches a scheme and orders the murder of Vince Foster, by someone. The unknown conspirators are told to make it look like a suicide. This conspiracy, at a minimum, necessitates cooperation from people within Secret Service, the FBI, the Park Police, the Washington D.C. police, the White House staff, Robert Fiske and even the President's arch political enemy Ken Starr. The conspiracy is so successful and so leak free despite the dozens of people (at a minimum) who had to have been involved, there is no affirmative evidence left behind whatsoever and five separate investigations all rule Foster's death a suicide.

By the way, David Brock's book isn't a red herring, in fact, it's pretty frickin' germane to this theory of yours, in that he admits to helping fabricate the Vince-Foster-was-murdered story as a political smear and then spreading it in the Spectator. He admits it! Once again: He admits helping fabricate this theory! David Brock's book is much more germane than your weird innuendos, like the Oven Mitt of Doom. It's filled with falsifiable statements. Try reading it!

Here's a simple question for you BAC:

If there was a conspiracy, who did it and what's your evidence? Otherwise you're JAQ'ing off.

 

[SmartyPants]

so all calm people have symptoms of clinical depression and are a threat to commit suicide at a moment's notice?

That would make a good defense for a common murderer.

"Jury, the person who was killed was calm! He had clinical depression and committed suicide! It was not a murder!"

Okay, you clearly didn't read anything in the links. What they said were, people with a history of depression/mental illness, anxiety and sucidial behavior who suddenly become calm seem to be at risk to commit suicide. Why? Because the sudden calmness indicates that he or she has made the decision to commit suicide and are therefore calm, knowing that the decision is out of the way and the suffering will end soon. How you got "all calm people have symptoms of clinical depression are a threat to commit suicide at a moment's notice," I don't know. Actually, I do know: It's a not so clever attempt to misrepresent what is common knowledge. Either that, or you're a walking non sequitur.

 

[SmartyPants]

SP, you haven't provided any "evidence" at all. But you sure are desperate to ignore a lot. For example, ... that oven mitt ... got an explanation?

You're being quite selective on my postings. I'm talking about suicidal behavior, and I have provided links (i.e. evidence) that demonstrate one doesn't necessarily have to be clinically depressed to commit suicide (although Foster was, and that certainly helps), and that there often (not always) is a period of calmness before one commits suicide.

If you want something about oven mitts, ask someone else. Others sure have posted enough about the physical evidence. Why don't you ask them?

Oh, I see...it would be easier to ask someone who hasn't posted about it, accuse of him ignoring it, then you yourself ignore my postings on something entirely different.

 

[BeAChooser]

This is just insane.

Then you should have no trouble explaining the facts I noted about Starr's investigations.

Don't avoid the questions ... answer them.

Why don't we start with these three:

Why did he lie to the public about the Filegate files being returned?

Why wasn't the oven mitt that he claimed was in Foster's glove compartment (to explain the lack of fingerprints on the gun) listed by the police anywhere in their records? They inventoried the contents of the glove compartment and no oven mitt is mentioned. It's hard to miss that oven mitt.

How can the photo that Starr claimed showed the mitt in the glove compartment have a clean passenger side floor when records show that the glove compartment was emptied and inventoried before the floor on the passenger side was cleared of debris?

Originally Posted by BeAChooser
So you think Starr is above suspicion?

Yes, I believe he is "above suspicion."

Then you should have no trouble answering those questions. You going to answer them or run from them, like you have so many others questions?

Option 1: A lawyer has been dogged in the press for months because of a political "scandal." He exhibits symptoms of depression and calls his doctor. He is prescribed an anti-depressant but does not take it long enough for it to develop a therapeutic blood level. His wife corroborates the fact that he's been depressed. He, according to the letter he wrote and tore up in frustration, says he feels like a failure. He owns a handgun. He goes to a park and shoots himself with the handgun.

ROTFLOL! See how desperate the *it was suicide* crowd is, folks? As I said at the beginning of this this thread, their entire explanation rests on claiming "he was depressed" ... even though NO ONE said he was depressed before that mysterious meeting in the Whitehouse a week after Foster died.

Outside of that claim (and it's nothing more than a claim), they have no evidence that Foster committed suicide.

They don't want to talk about the other use for trazadone (to fight insomnia).

They don't want to talk about the doctor clearly stating that he was treating Foster's sleeping problems.

They don't want to talk about Foster's previous sleeping pill prescription problems.

They don't want to talk about Foster saying he was feeling better and acting quite normal in the days before he died.

They don't want to talk about what other people (besides those few who changed their story a week after his death, after a meeting in the Whitehouse) said about Foster NOT being depressed.

They don't want to talk about what witnesses, doctors, EMTs and a photo indicated was the true nature of Foster's wounds.

They don't want to talk about the true nature of the gun and the fabrication of evidence where that is concerned.

They don't want to talk about what Starr's own investigator said about the investigation being a coverup.

They don't want to talk about the numerous investigators who said the body appeared to have been moved before the photos that Fiske and Starr show the body as it was found were taken.

They don't want to talk about what the man who first found Foster's body said under oath ... that there was no gun in either of Foster's hands and that the position of the body was different in the photos than what he saw.

They don't want to talk about the missing photos and x-rays.

They don't want to talk about the obvious lies by Dr Bergan regarding the wound and x-rays.

They don't want to talk about the bogus suicide note.

They don't want to talk about the alteration of Lisa Fosters statement to the FBI.

They don't want to the intimidation of other witnesses such as Patrick Knowlton.

They don't want to talk about Clinton staffers removing material from Foster's office then lying under oath about doing it.

They don't want to talk about $286000 payment made to Lisa Foster.

They don't want to talk about what Foster was working on for the Clintons.

And I could go on and on and on regarding facts that they simply don't want to talk about.

Their entire defense of the "it was suicide" claim is to simply keep repeating "it was suicide" and hope you'll believe it. That's how desperate they are.

 

[oldhat]

So you're solidly in the Option 2 camp I take it?

Who did it? Who pulled the trigger? What's your evidence?

I am admittedly intrigued by the oven mitt. You appear to have spent a good amount of time studying the issue. Can you explain what the mysterious oven mitt proves?

Your evidence was gone over again and again in five separate investigations. Are you telling everyone all five investigations were compromised?

How far does this conspiracy go? How many people were involved in your estimation? Please give me a number.

 

[BeAChooser]

Can you explain what the mysterious oven mitt proves?

Are you really this dense? I think I made it very clear what it proves.

 

[oldhat]

Are you really this dense? I think I made it very clear what it proves.

It proves you think your perception of a chain of custody discrepancy over an incidental oven mitt disproves the entire body of evidence that Vince Foster killed himself.

Your conspiracy theory is too far fetched for anyone to take seriously besides the most paranoid of CTers and rightwing loonies. Hundreds of participants. Five investigations compromised. Half a dozen agencies (at least) all working in perfect coordination, leaving no affirmative evidence behind (a footprint, a fingerprint in Foster's car, anything). No leaks. Ever. First time in history.

The president conspiring with the man who later impeached him, in order to cover up the assassination they planned together.

I mean, it almost sounds crazy.

Ted Olsen made this garbage up! David Brock made it up! They knew it was fake! It's in the book! Why do you refuse to admit this?

 

[Galileo]

Okay, you clearly didn't read anything in the links. What they said were, people with a history of depression/mental illness, anxiety and sucidial behavior who suddenly become calm seem to be at risk to commit suicide. Why? Because the sudden calmness indicates that he or she has made the decision to commit suicide and are therefore calm, knowing that the decision is out of the way and the suffering will end soon. How you got "all calm people have symptoms of clinical depression are a threat to commit suicide at a moment's notice," I don't know. Actually, I do know: It's a not so clever attempt to misrepresent what is common knowledge. Either that, or you're a walking non sequitur.

Do you not realize that a couple hundred million Americans work hard every day, run errands, talk on the phone, etc., then suddenly become calm in the evening before they go to sleep? Some people get home and relax, kick back in a chair, or crack open a beer. Some people with insomnia don't get enough sleep and are calm in the morning as well.

A lot of calm people have been murdered by sudden gunshots.