The Zeitgeist Movement... why not?

People choose to be motivated by profit.
I can say that I don’t choose it. I need to be motivated by profit to survive in a monetary system. I'm motivated into monotonous labor that is similar to slavery in many ways.

And that's the problem with TVP: It assumes that if the system changes, people will change. But this has been tried before. Always, however good the system, there's always people around to mess it up.
A REB has never been tried before and could not have been because humans have lacked the essential ingredients for a RBE until now. I just don’t see the similarities in TVP and Russian socialism.
 
I've avoided the website but I watched the 97 minute introduction video and was less than impressed. It made some strange allegations such as that all technology is designed to be flawed by companies who want you to buy more and with promises to create things that are built to last forever.

Uh huh.

It also claimed that all war would end when we eliminate governments. Really.

Did you find anything worth while, interesting, relavant, correct? Anything at all?
 
Whats a criminal? Make a law and a person who was not a criminal can become one. Laws can make "criminals".

So rape and murder are legal in TVP? Don't play this game when trying to seriously propose a restructuring of society.

I’m not concerned with the TVP answer...

And this is the essence of the problem. You are only concerned with a perfect world.

The prominent factor being economic.

Evidence?

That I dont own TVP.

Yes, in fact you do own TVP. By its very nature it is the property of those who back it. This is the point.

The tech for a city exists.

That wasn't his question. Why are you avoiding it?

You can't be sure yet.

But we can take into account identical systems like Marxism when forming our questions.

AI governs and makes decisions unless it is unable to do so. Ideas are submitted buy people. The AI crunches the numbers and lets you know the outcome.

Sorry, but no computer can ever crunch the numbers of what is necessary to run a society when there are too many factors to ever be considered.

Sociopaths? Lets ask "why are they sociopathic?" Maybe its their society...

I would recommend a study on human psychology for this one.

What is? An RBE in my lifetime?

Without evidence or a workable model I would answer...yes it is delusional.

I didnt go.

Surprising to say the least.

With a AI like TVP we could be an Athenian Democracy. Maybe that would help...

Complete with slaves and non-political citizens? Direct democracy doesn't work on a large scale.

I'll try not to be vague so I may better impress you;)

Leave the sarcasm. If you want to be taken seriously that is the first step.

Spoken like a true Patriot :) How many times has the government’s elected officials acted against the constitution and what does that mean for the Constitution?

Provide some evidence, since you are begging the question here. All I know is that I am more free than many people around the world.

The results are usually marginal or non-exsistent.

Evidence?

I mean the voting system itself. This guy or that guy? Whats the difference? Not voting does not mean you don't deserve to live in society or that you're lazy. Not paying taxes may mean that but not voting is totally understandable from my point of view.

Than don't vote, that is your freedom; but don't think that you have an ability to educate us in civics. The system is far more complex than you wish it to be.

No it hasn’t. You need to remove the monetary system and solve the issue of resource scarcity before the world is post scarcity.

Something TVP will never accomplish, because they have yet to even approach the issue.

Compititon a universal human behavior? ****...I'm not human!:jaw-dropp

The sum of your postings here prove otherwise.

What caused those mental diseases? How can they be cured?

Maybe not.
Nope. TVP and Anarchy or Communism don't relate. Thats if you are talking about the same Anarchy and Communism that most people think of when they hear those words.

Marxism and TVP are long lost brothers, and that is obvious to anyone who has read Marx and looked into TVP.

When I look at current research I dont see what you are seeing somehow. The major player is environment and experience.

The key word here is current, I challenge you to find current research to back up your claims. It seems you are still stuck in the past on this one.

Humans would make propositions and feed that data to AI. Or, maybe it would look like a Athenian democracy with the AI crunching data. The ideas would be considered, not people. That’s what I understand so far.

Would not work. In fact I am willing to bet that enough people proposing ideas could overwhelm a supercomputer grid as it tried for month and years to calculate the results of these proposals.
 
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Yes, near always. Funny how people operate in a predictable manner like that isn't it? As for the rest of your stuff. Well it is the same hand waving from the rest of the thread which doesn't answer anything. Hydroponics wouldn't prevent disease from effecting plants, and there would still be supply issues. And weather can still effect the infrastructure. That and your notions about human nature are outdated and contradicted by the modern literature, after years of experimentation to prove it, it failed to show that many of these things are taught. I challenge you to look to the psychological, sociological and communications literature.

To the VP, I will present a counterpoint as intelligent and valid as anything seen in Zeitgeist.



Hehheh That was ****ing funny :p Oh how I lol'd
But on a more serious note. The biggest surprise I've had in here is how the opponents of TVP are adamant that genetics is the big factor in behavior. As if rape doesn’t traumatize or something. As if experience is irrelevant. I really can’t believe that.
 
As if rape doesn’t traumatize or something.

No one ever said it doesn't.

As if experience is irrelevant. I really can’t believe that.

Well belief isn't necessary here. I can believe that a magical unicorn will stop bullets from a machine gun, but I will be killed just the same.

Genetics has a huge effect, and TVP is ignoring some very extreme genetics.
 
Saying it over and over doesn't make it true.
No, its true if I say it or not.


Genetics and experience/environment are intimately interdependant. It might be possible, with some pretty intricate statistical analysis, to work out how much of human behaviour is dependant on which factors, but you have neither done so, nor shown that anyone else has, so your assertion is baseless.
Has anyone ever shown it? That would be interesting data.
 
No, its true if I say it or not.

Evidence?

Has anyone ever shown it? That would be interesting data.

Search it through JSTOR, EBSCO, Lexis Nexis. All are good sources for academic papers on the subject, and you should be able to access them through your local library.

The fact is that all things merge together as you study these things, and I will try to find the time to find some of these studies; but that might not happen as I am about to graduate and it is stressful and all. So that is why I recommended those sites.
 
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Did you find anything worth while, interesting, relavant, correct? Anything at all?

Nope, upon watching the video I found nothing. It is really just a modernized version of what Karl Marx outlined, and it would go a long way if TVP proponents would accept that and argue from that perspective instead of denying that their ideology is related to Marxism.

EDIT: And I am not trying to pick a fight with you or anyone else on this forum. Regardless of the tone of my messages I am not out to get you Mr Mix or anyone else. At worst I am helping your construct you argument by presenting an opposing view. And am glad you found the video funny, I may have been being a smart *** when posting it, but at least it brings some levity to the debate.
 
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Especially given that what he is basically arguing is the outdated model that claims that boys and girls are completely gender neutral when born, and if not taught the roles will end up identical in personality and socialization. At least that is what he appears to be saying. Also he is disputing the observations on social stratification in small groups, which is observable.
If you are born male you will have a tendency for certain kinds of boy behavior. That’s genetic. There is a certain level of gender neutrality when born though. It doesn’t seem far fetched to say that if a boy or girl is raised gender neutral, they will be a level of androgyny there.

Still the greatest cop-out TVP proponents have is to claim that there system is so new that we should take a chance and ignore everything to try their pseudoscientific system.
That’s not it really. I came in here because TZM would be torn apart and I could have a better undestanding of it. Why else would I post in a skeptics forum?
 
So if there's no law against theft, theft isn't a crime?

Theft is universally morally wrong. Not all laws are though. Also, there is no basis for theft in a RBE so you wouldn’t steal. It’s all free. You can't steal. No one owns anything.
 
If you are born male you will have a tendency for certain kinds of boy behavior. That’s genetic. There is a certain level of gender neutrality when born though. It doesn’t seem far fetched to say that if a boy or girl is raised gender neutral, they will be a level of androgyny there.

Except that the studies have shown that it isn't true. Honestly boys will behave a certain way (e.g. aggressive and competitive) regardless of how you attempt to raise them. Even the original proponents of these theories have back off from them in the last two decades.

That’s not it really. I came in here because TZM would be torn apart and I could have a better undestanding of it. Why else would I post in a skeptics forum?

To be fair I do not believe you have ever proposed we simply accept it and not question it? Am I right? So in that case this particular quote was not intended for you, but for TVP proponenet in general. If you do not engage in that behavior than please accept my apology and excuse yourself from that particular debate.
 
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Theft is universally morally wrong. Not all laws are though. Also, there is no basis for theft in a RBE so you wouldn’t steal. It’s all free. You can't steal. No one owns anything.
Wrong, because even when everything is free some people will posses something that you do not own. It doesn't matter if you can achieve it, it is a matter of being able to take from someone else. You have to deal with the issue of people who honestly want to hurt others.

And by the way...not owning anything is a huge problem. If you want to get into that one, please feel free to quote this and ask and I will write my essay on the subject.
 
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So rape and murder are legal in TVP? Don't play this game when trying to seriously propose a restructuring of society.
Rape and murder are moraly wrong everywhere. They are also illigal in most places.

And this is the essence of the problem. You are only concerned with a perfect world.
Perfection does not exist. You should know that I already know that because I have stated it in this thread already.

Yes, in fact you do own TVP. By its very nature it is the property of those who back it. This is the point.
Well, Jacque Fresco owns it technically.

That wasn't his question. Why are you avoiding it?
I wasn’t responding to a question and have no motivation to avoid any question except for a lack of time. I'm sure you can understand.

Surprising to say the least.
Ha

Complete with slaves and non-political citizens?
Nope

Leave the sarcasm. If you want to be taken seriously that is the first step.
Thats hilarious. "leave the sarcasm". That’s rich!
Also, do you think that I expect to be taken seriously when talking about TZM in here. I'm not that naive.

Than don't vote, that is your freedom; but don't think that you have an ability to educate us in civics. The system is far more complex than you wish it to be.
Yes I'm here to educate you in civics.:rolleyes:

The key word here is current, I challenge you to find current research to back up your claims. It seems you are still stuck in the past on this one.
I'll take you up on that one.
 
Rape and murder are moraly wrong everywhere. They are also illigal in most places.

So you don't need a law to define that. Okay, now we are going somewhere.

Perfection does not exist. You should know that I already know that because I have stated it in this thread already.

Than why are you not concerned with the answer to the question?

Well, Jacque Fresco owns it technically.

Than he doesn't believe in his own system. Everything in TVP, including his books and videos should be community property. Turn it over to the people and they will provide it to the world, more efficiently and will no cost to the consumer.

I wasn’t responding to a question and have no motivation to avoid any question except for a lack of time. I'm sure you can understand.

You have all the time in the world, and you need to respond to questions, because right now you are raising negative awareness.


Well good thing you gave up on Athenian democracy, I was worried there for a moment.

Thats hilarious. "leave the sarcasm". That’s rich!
Also, do you think that I expect to be taken seriously when talking about TZM in here. I'm not that naive.

Than why are you here? This quote alone won't raise awarness to any lurkers, it merely labels you as a troll on the thread.

Yes I'm here to educate you in civics.:rolleyes:

Don't worry, you're not qualified.

I'll take you up on that one.

Good. Start with JSTOR, and EBSCO; and do try to find studies within the last 20 years.
 
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Nope, upon watching the video I found nothing. It is really just a modernized version of what Karl Marx outlined, and it would go a long way if TVP proponents would accept that and argue from that perspective instead of denying that their ideology is related to Marxism.

EDIT: And I am not trying to pick a fight with you or anyone else on this forum. Regardless of the tone of my messages I am not out to get you Mr Mix or anyone else. At worst I am helping your construct you argument by presenting an opposing view. And am glad you found the video funny, I may have been being a smart *** when posting it, but at least it brings some levity to the debate.

Understood. Even though text is limited when conveying meaning and context, I see you're being pretty civil about it. I can be a major dick in forums sometimes but I try to remain cool. You should see me blast conspiracy theorists in the TZM forum. Glorious!!!
You guys are all right in my book. The youtube post was comedy gold menthol :)
 
Understood. Even though text is limited when conveying meaning and context, I see you're being pretty civil about it. I can be a major dick in forums sometimes but I try to remain cool. You should see me blast conspiracy theorists in the TZM forum. Glorious!!!
You guys are all right in my book. The youtube post was comedy gold menthol :)
It is all good, and to a point I think it helps everybody here to get a little off topic for a moment to redefine what we are doing. To often things get too heated, and I think it is good to stop, breath and take things in context. Heck, I got in trouble once in this thread, and one person left when they shouldn't have. Levity will be brought to the thread, and it is best not to take it personally.

I may not agree with you, and honestly I may viciously disagree with you; but that has nothing to do with you personally. I am just trying to get back on topic and go issue by issue on this subject. So that was the purpose to my little derail here. Sometimes it is good to stop and say it is not personal when disagreeing.

Anyway, I will give a chance to the others on this thread to respond before I post again.
 
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I can say that I don’t choose it. I need to be motivated by profit to survive in a monetary system. I'm motivated into monotonous labor that is similar to slavery in many ways.
You seem to be under the impression that the task of survival should be entertaining and optional.

Do you really think that crafting stone spearheads, herding wooly mammoths into pit traps, and fashioning your own clothing from scratch would be anything other than hard, monotonous labor "akin to slavery in many ways"?

If not, I invite you to try it: There's plenty of wilderness left in this world for someone who thinks they can do better without modern civilization.
 
I need to be motivated by profit to survive in a monetary system. I'm motivated into monotonous labor that is similar to slavery in many ways.
Actually, you know what? Let me guess:

You're relatively young, relatively unskilled, relatively uneducated, and relatively inexperienced. You may also be either relatively untalented, or else have stumbled into a job which doesn't make use of whatever your talents are.

So you look around, and you see a lot of people who are profiting from their skills, their education, their experience, and their talents. All of which are things that take lots of effort and lots of time to develop. Effort which you have not yet made, and time which you have not yet spent. And based on the effort and time put into these things, they are highly valued, and rightly so. They are valued by the people who have them. And they are valued by the people that benefit from their application.

You, having very little of these things, find that your application of them is not very highly valued. This is, I think as it should be.

But you disagree. You think there's a problem, and you think you have the perfect solution:

Other people--people who have invested the time and effort to develop these things--will build for you a Better Tomorrow. A Tomorrow where you will be greatly rewarded regardless of how skilful, how educated, how experienced, or how talented you are.

You don't want to put in the long, painful hours of training your mind or body to master a task or idea? No problem--other people will do it for you.

You don't want to put in the long, painful hours to learn a complex subject or master a difficult field of inquiry? No problem--other people will do it for you.

You don't want to wait for years and years for your experiences to build up, and your wisdom and insight to grow with them? No problem--other people's experience will serve you just as well.

You don't have a talent anybody else wants to reward you for? No problem--they'll go ahead and reward you anyway. In fact, all along the way, you'll reap the rich rewards of other people's work, other people's experience, other people's talent. All without ever having to develop any of your own.

And in order to escape the obvious, sickening unfairness of such a system, The Venus Project handwaves in a bunch of magical robots and computers that will do all the work for you, so you don't even have to worry about leeching off the efforts of others...

... Except, of course, that you still do: Who will design and build the computers? Other people, not you. Who will maintain and repair the robots? Other people, not you. Oh, I know, it's actually going to be robots all the way down. And until that day, who will keep moving things forward? Other people, not you.

Meanwhile, here in the real world, other people, not you, are hard at work, developing our skills, educating ourselves, gaining experience, and exercising our natural talents. We're busy designing computers, and building robots, and developing more efficient processes, and ten thousand other clever and innovative things, because we all want a Better Tomorrow for ourselves.

That's all "profit" is to any of us: A Better Tomorrow. A Tomorrow where our hard work pays off. A Tomorrow where we can spend more time with our families. A Tomorrow with less pollution in it. A Tomorrow with an ocean-going yacht, or a trip to the ISS, or a jumbo-sized popcorn and a summer blockbuster movie, or an Alpine skiing trip, or an Olympic gold medal, or any one of the ten thousand things that actually motivate us, beyond mere survival.

And the thing is, we're all putting in the work ourselves, because we know that other people aren't going to do it for us. Nor should they.

If the people running TVP are willing to do all that for you, while you do nothing, more fool them, and good luck to you. And if you think the problem's going to be solved by magical robots and computers, I can promise you one thing for sure: We real-world types will develop those computers and robots long before TVP ever does.

Why wait for TVP to "raise awareness" and "make a movie", and build a "theme park"? You don't need any of that. All you need is a degree from MIT, and you'll be well on your way to making your own Better Tomorrow.
 
Why wait for TVP to "raise awareness" and "make a movie", and build a "theme park"? You don't need any of that. All you need is a degree from MIT, and you'll be well on your way to making your own Better Tomorrow.
You don't even need a degree, just some measure of effort:
Doc Henley
Bartender Doc Hendley is providing clean water to communities worldwide. Through creative fundraising, his nonprofit Wine to Water has brought sustainable water systems to 25,000 people in five countries.

"You can be a bartender in Raleigh, North Carolina; you can be just a regular anybody. And you really, really can change the world," he says. "You can touch thousands of lives. I'm walking truth of that."
http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/04/30/heroes.doc.hendley/index.html
 

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