From Rapture Ready

Personal Grudge said:
I am just always completely flabberghasted with the surety that fundamentalists seem to express. Is it really so impossible to express the "This is what I believe, but it's possible I could be wrong" viewpoint? It seems that most Christians can easily say this... and these are the people with whom you can have an intelligent debate.

I am reminded of the family of my Mormon girlfriend (back when we were dating... and back when I was a Mormon... a much more ignorant time of my life). The father worked for NASA. The mother was a high school science teacher. When we first met, I began discussing religion with them. And, I made the mistake of questioning evolution. After all, the Bible clearly lays out how humans were created. So, obviously evolution must be false.

I quickly had a couple of Mormon parents attempting to hold back their laughter at my ridiculous notion. As a couple of scientists, they found the idea of questioning the validity of evolution to be ridiculous. As they quickly explained... the Bible should not really be taken literally. They themselves loved to display the contradictions throughout various passages of this book.

Of course, being Mormon... they certainly held other beliefs that could not be supported by one piece of evidence. The whole "Joseph Smith and the golden plates" story was definitely true in their eyes. But, they were not offended by suggestions that they could be wrong. They readily recognized that their chosen beliefs existed without evidence, and they did not try to pretend that the universe showed any of their beliefs to be self-evident.

For those that express such certainty on subjects for which they cannot provide evidence... how can this be differentiated from sheer delusion?
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I don't know any Mormons, but from what you've said, I figure Smith was someone who hit on a way to convert people to his beliefs, whatever they were. I could be convinced his motives were pure, much as my motives are in playing "devil's advocate" in some of the discussions here. I just happen to be one of the many who don't think religions are evil incarnate, but the striving of humans for something better than they experience right now.

Unfortunately, in the Rorschach tests that exemplify religious texts, people will read into them whatever their current biases dictate, hence KK, CD, and hamelekim, all folks with some sort of ax to grind. More often than not, that ax is the product of the actions of significant others in these folks' lives, hence they deserve our pity, not our condemnation.


M.
 
Moochie said:
I think the point is, when you die, you're dead. You can paint "dead" in many colors, as the "Rapture" folks are rather fond of doing, but dead is dead.

The problem is, "Armageddon" is a very real possibility, given what scientists tell us about how we're despoiling our environment. There's a very real possibility that eventually we -- us humans -- will make this Earth uninhabitable for any living thing. If that's not Armageddon, I don't know what is.

Whether we do so or not ties in with the whole "original sin" and "punishment" trip. But the punishment will be of our own making.

Just tossing this out there for your consideration.


M.
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I agree, "Armageddon" could happen, just not in the way the rapture folks think it will. And I think it's a horrible, horrible thing that they do when they scare kids with their end times scenarios. The type of Armageddon you're talking about, where humans simply make the earth uninhabitable, should be a very real concern.
 
hamelekim said:
You seem to have a very unnaturally high opinion of yourself. I think you should get that checked out by a registered psychiatrist.

God doesn't make mistakes, and everything that has happened or will happened was planned by him from the beginning.

As for God creating evil. God gave us free will. Free will can lead to evil because not doing God's will is evil.

What is the point in creating people to worship you if they won't do it willingly? The only way to have them do it willingly is to give them free will. hence we all have a choice.
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According to the Bible he considered the world a mistake and killed everything bar a handful. Some might consider that quite a mistake.
 
LisaLynn said:
I agree, "Armageddon" could happen, just not in the way the rapture folks think it will. And I think it's a horrible, horrible thing that they do when they scare kids with their end times scenarios. The type of Armageddon you're talking about, where humans simply make the earth uninhabitable, should be a very real concern.
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Yes, I think the "scaring the kids" scenario is spineless adults refusing to take responsibility, as others have mentioned here. Talk about "sins of the fathers (and mothers)." These people are just passing the buck. They have zero understanding, it seems to me, and are passing responsibility on to however their pastor interprets scripture, not realizing that dear pastor could have his or her own reasons for interpreting scripture in that way.

That's what happens when you forfeit your ability to think for yourself.


M.
 
As we're sweating an Armageddon, may I make a suggestion? You know, just for the giggles...

If it were me, I'd look at what I can do on my own before I give up on old planet Earth. I'd look into things like Conflict Resolution, and how to help mediate disputes. I'd see what I could do about helping the homeless, or feeding the hungry. Global Warming/Climate Change? What I'm reading is deforestation is not helping, and desertization is spreading across Northern Africa. If we could plant trees at the edges of the Sahara, perhaps that could help.

Maybe one thing I could (and should) be doing is taking a long hard look at how and where I'm spending my money. If I buy most of my stuff at WalMart, what kind of a carbon footprint does that leave, given the amount of stuff they ship in from China. There's no free lunch, and this one seems to be a bit expensive for my tastes, particularly for what I get.

What about the food I buy? Why not purchase locally? Not all "organic" is worth the money, but if there's a reduction in pesticides, isn't that a worthwhile goal?

See, the whole business of "End Times" is a surrender. It's throwing up your hands, saying you're done, and expecting Jesus to come in and fix your mess. It's a coward's way out, and it's not worth it. Personally, I think my fellow human beings deserve better than that, out of basic respect.

I think out of basic self-respect, we ought to be examining ourselves and what we're doing not only to the planet, but to one another. It's called decency, or at least it used to be. Eric Sevareid used to call it "neighborliness." It's a sense that you are not alone, that you not only have friends, but obligations to them.

I'm sorry that our "christian" friends, the ones who claim to be disciples of Jesus but are more hell-bent than just about any Wiccan, can't seem to get their heads out of their asses long enough to recognize the damage they do with this "evangelical" bleating about end times. But in the end, they will be judged. Perhaps not by their god, but by history, most assuredly.

I expect better from myself.
 
Roadtoad said:
As we're sweating an Armageddon, may I make a suggestion? You know, just for the giggles...

If it were me, I'd look at what I can do on my own before I give up on old planet Earth. I'd look into things like Conflict Resolution, and how to help mediate disputes. I'd see what I could do about helping the homeless, or feeding the hungry. Global Warming/Climate Change? What I'm reading is deforestation is not helping, and desertization is spreading across Northern Africa. If we could plant trees at the edges of the Sahara, perhaps that could help.

Maybe one thing I could (and should) be doing is taking a long hard look at how and where I'm spending my money. If I buy most of my stuff at WalMart, what kind of a carbon footprint does that leave, given the amount of stuff they ship in from China. There's no free lunch, and this one seems to be a bit expensive for my tastes, particularly for what I get.

What about the food I buy? Why not purchase locally? Not all "organic" is worth the money, but if there's a reduction in pesticides, isn't that a worthwhile goal?

See, the whole business of "End Times" is a surrender. It's throwing up your hands, saying you're done, and expecting Jesus to come in and fix your mess. It's a coward's way out, and it's not worth it. Personally, I think my fellow human beings deserve better than that, out of basic respect.

I think out of basic self-respect, we ought to be examining ourselves and what we're doing not only to the planet, but to one another. It's called decency, or at least it used to be. Eric Sevareid used to call it "neighborliness." It's a sense that you are not alone, that you not only have friends, but obligations to them.

I'm sorry that our "christian" friends, the ones who claim to be disciples of Jesus but are more hell-bent than just about any Wiccan, can't seem to get their heads out of their asses long enough to recognize the damage they do with this "evangelical" bleating about end times. But in the end, they will be judged. Perhaps not by their god, but by history, most assuredly.

I expect better from myself.
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Well said!
 
I met a guy once who was an endtimes fundy. Sometime during our conversation, after I explained my views, he got a very smug look on his face and said, "You will kneel before him."

I burst out laughing.
 
aggle-rithm said:
Whew! That's a relief!

But wouldn't one of us be considered evil if we did the same thing?

Jesus said, "You must be perfect as your father in Heaven is perfect".

If being perfect involves killing children, then wouldn't we necessarily be allowed to do the same?
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It seems as if one were required to: "You must be perfect as your Father in Heaven..."

Wildy said:
I've never liked people who say stuff like that. I find it appalling in a way. It's as if, when you do good, you couldn't have done it on your own, you must have had help. And that help came from God. But then when something bad happens it's not God who did it. It's something that you did.
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I once read a statement by someone that said, "If you say a book can do no harm, then how can you say a book does good?"

aggle-rithm said:
...So...he became totally free from sin. And much less pleasant to be around.

For some reason, when you are free from sin, you become arrogant, cocky, and judgemental. Other people aren't good enough for you, and you leave a trail of broken relationships behind you.

That's why a little sin on the part of others doesn't bother me too much.
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For some reason, the sin of pride seems to be the hardest one of all to part with.
 
hamelekim said:
You will not download music or movies online or you will spend the rest of your life in Jail. How are the laws of many better than those of God?
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Ignoring that I don't think there is any civilized country on Earth where a copyright infringement conviction can result in a LIFE sentence, the difference between your mythical Hell and earthly prisons is the noticeable lack of constant, unending, torture. While I imagine that prison is not a pleasant place, we don't (or at least shouldn't) go out of the way to make it a place where cruelty and pain are the norms. That, and unlike your Perdition, there is a chance for parole or early release for good behavior.

Strange how secular governments are far more merciful than your all loving deity.

hamelekim said:
The point is, God cannot abide by Sin.
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It's funny how the puny, cosmically insignificant actions of a mere mortal like myself can hurt or offend an "omnipotent" being.

hamelekim said:
When Jesus died on the cross he was completely and totally rejected by God.
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Huh? I thought that the whole crucifixion thing was part of "The Plan."

hamelekim said:
Having been with God the father always it was extremely painful for Jesus.
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I thought Jesus WAS "God the father." At least get your mythology straight before you wave it under our noses and try to pass it off as fact.

hamelekim said:
God wants your love willingly...
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Yes, "love" me OR ELSE. Sorry, but love is always conditional and so far you and your fellow Christians haven't made the case why I should even so much as say "Hi" to him as we pass eachother in the hall.

hamelekim said:
...but there are consequences for behavior, just like there are consequences for raping and murdering people.
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I would go as far as to say that even rapists and murderers don't deserve "Hell" any more than non-believers. Hitler? Stalin? Saddam Hussein? Sorry. Even they would deserve better than what your Yahweh has in store for them.

That alone makes me, a filthy atheist, more moral than the invisible fascist you mindlessly worship.

hamelekim said:
You may not view your behavior as on the level of rape and murder, and worth eternity in hell, but then a psychopath doesn't see his behavior as immoral either.
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I'm not the one worshiping a being who demands constant praise and conformity to his fickle will and get's his kicks out of inflicting pain and death on people if he doesn't get it.

It's anyone is in desperate need of a straight jacket, it's Jehovah.

hamelekim said:
The Bible teaches that we are all corrupted with sin, so for the sinners, or psychopaths to be deciding what is right or wrong, and what is a choice is rather foolish don't you think?
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Yes, corrupted with "sin." For what "crime" again? Oh yes: A mythological woman, who allegedly didn't understand that what she was doing was supposed to be wrong in the first place, what conned into eating a piece of fruit by A TALKING SNAKE!

Sorry, the only sin and corruption here exists in your deluded mind.

Also, a psychopath doesn't have the capability to "decide" what's right or wrong. That's why it's considered a mental illness and the reason why civilized societies put them in psychiatric hospitals rather than prisons or execute them. There is hope that we can treat them.

Again, this is unlike your God, who in his zeal to play cosmic hanging judge seems so anxious to show that he is less merciful than his allegedly wicked, sinful, corrupt, creations.

hamelekim said:
Some day you will realize the truth, everyone will because we will all have to stand before God and be accountable for how we have lived our lives.
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Your threats are meaningless. They don't frighten me.
 
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Magnifico2.0 said:
I met a guy once who was an endtimes fundy. Sometime during our conversation, after I explained my views, he got a very smug look on his face and said, "You will kneel before him."

I burst out laughing.
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You will kneel before Zod!
 
hamelekim said:
This life has suffering in it, you cannot escape that, and although you can blame God for it, you cannot judge him.
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Why not? As the alleged ruler of the universe he is accountable for what he does and the conditions he creates.

I cannot judge your god?

Watch me!
 
Roadtoad said:
See, the whole business of "End Times" is a surrender. It's throwing up your hands, saying you're done, and expecting Jesus to come in and fix your mess. It's a coward's way out, and it's not worth it.
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Back in college, I also once worked with a Rapture-Head at the worst summer temp jobs I ever had to endure. When this 30-something-year-old jerk wasn't openly picking on me like some teenager, he was constantly going on and on about how none of the crap that was going on in his life (i.e. having to work two jobs, living in a crappy apartment, making alimony and child support payments) mattered because "The lord is coming for me soon."

Come September, I was never happier to get back to school in my entire life.

That was over 10 years ago, and sometimes I wonder if this cretin's prospects have changed. Probably not. What's the point of getting a better education or a better job if Jesus was going to come down and magic you away to Heaven?

Poor sap.
 
hamelekim said:
You seem to have a very unnaturally high opinion of yourself. I think you should get that checked out by a registered psychiatrist.
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Excuse me, but if I recall, YOU'RE the one who's claiming that your sky tyrant's killing of children is "good."

Don't let the door to the rubber room hit your ass on the way in.
 
six7s said:
No

I'm merely suggesting that you 'stop using a compendium of 4,000 and 2,000 year old novels as a handbook on morals and legislation'
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This is a strawman, especially, for me as an Anglican, who also considers tradition and reason; the Bible is not the end of a debate but a start.

six7s said:
Irrelevant in regard to your novels... they are worse than useless
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Rather a generalisation! Whether Jesus was the Christ or not, Ghandi, for instance, found inspiration in that character.
 
six7s said:
As far as drafting and implementing legislation goes, I'd really, really prefer if fairy tales were left out of the mix, thanks all the same
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Fair enough. As for myself, I'm against the idea of a theocracy, but personally I think that it can be of value to an organisation that decides on legislation to hear Xtain input (if it is the right kind, like mine:D).
 
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