NIST is lying, because NIST knows it better.
Even debunker here do not follow NIST, that cars 6, 7 or 50 have fallen all the way down to the pit in the sub-basement level. Please read the discussion.
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Merged Fireballs and Backdraft in WTC1 Basement and Lobby
NIST is lying, because NIST knows it better.
Even debunker here do not follow NIST, that cars 6, 7 or 50 have fallen all the way down to the pit in the sub-basement level. Please read the discussion.
So after the huge fireball from plane impact and the remaining fuel starting fires at the impact zone, enough fuel was remaining to flood three elevator shafts with another huge fireball 1/4 mile long.
I don't think I have that much faith, my friends.
I don't think I have that much faith, my friends.
BigAl
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Yup.
aggle-rithm
Ardent Formulist
Forget faith. How about parsimony?
You've got this big, fiery explosion in the basement. You look for a cause. You find that an airliner crashed into the building shortly before the explosion and much of the jet fuel, following the path of least resistance, flowed down the elevator shafts.
Given what you KNOW about the situation (not what you IMAGINE, but what you KNOW), isn't it more rational to conclude that the jet fuel may have had something to do with the explosion, than that a bunch of black ops characters, for which there is ZERO evidence, got down there and planted bombs that apparently served no purpose at all, since the building collapsed from the top down?
Sure, there may be things about this hypothesis that don't make sense to you. However, isn't it more rational to conclude that your understanding of catastrophic events with huge forces and large-scale destruction isn't as complete as you think it is?
leftysergeant
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No. The over-pressurization of the impacted floors was relieved through the elevator shafts as well as out the windows. This sent not flame, but liquid and aerosolized fuel down the shafts. I doubt that much, if any of it was burning by the time it had travelled a couple of floors.
Thew explosion on the impacted floor injected potentially explosive or flammable fuels into all the open spaces with which the impacted floors communicated directly. All that was needed was air an a source of ignition to cause an explosion. This is why the biggest blasts were in the basement, where the most air would have beeen entering the shafts at any given time, and why Cacchioli found one floor around the 20th blown out. This was a floor where some elevators stopped running and a door would have likely been open to provide air to the fuel mix.
aggle-rithm
Ardent Formulist
[kookResponse]I didn't understand any of that, so it must have been a team of Ninjas planting movie-style pyrotechnics for some reason.[/kookResponse]
No NIST is not lying. The information I provided you with about where cars 6 and 7 were parked came from NIST NCSTAR 1-8. Here is the complete quote:
Source: NIST NCSTAR 1-8
Compare this quote with the quote that Dog Town provided you in post #780 from NIST NCSTAR 1-7. I suggest that you read both in their original context and also that you check the source notes at the bottom the pages. Also take a look at who wrote the reports.
The quote from NIST NCSTAR 1-7 contains a couple of inaccuracies. They overlooked car #7, a simple error of no great significance. And car #50 stopped before it got all the way down to its pit, a detail of no significance at all in the context.
It is also to be noted that car #6 and #7 very well could have been parked on a higher level initially, even though they were out of service. If that was the case they must have fallen all the way to the pit, since they were observed burned on B1, their fall would in that case have been stopped by the hugh buffer pistons seen in one of the blue prints I linked to you.
Do you still consider this be a lie Bio?
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leftysergeant
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What you lack, it seems, is any knowledge of the behavior of fire or compressed gases.
Faith in dimwits like Hoffman, Bollyn and Avery is superstitious, and will be regarded with appropriate disdain here.
Regarding cars 6 and 7, take a look at the quote I provided in my last post above above about those two elevator cars. They were at the least burned and the doors were blown off.
I will commend you for your honesty in admitting that you find it difficult to understand what happened. To understand how destructive flammable aerosol/vapor explosions and some of the mechanisms involved, I have compiled list of links for you to explore. The effect of deflagration of jet fuel in the elevator shafts of WTC must be considered mild compared to some of the examples below. The WTC disaster was so far outside our everyday experience that it is difficult to comprehend. And that is the problem for many I guess, it becomes to mind-bogglingly to comprehend, then it is easy to substitute lack of understanding with bombs to explain the events. Hopefully the examples below would help to put things into perspective.
First some sewer explosions involving hydrocarbons. Note that these examples involved the buildup of fuel over a relatively long time span, while in the WTC the jet fuel cloud was forced into the elevator shafts by the over pressure generated by the fireball in the impact zone.
- Sewer explosion in New York City 1913
- 1929 Ottawa sewer explosion
- 1992 explosions in Guadalajara (Pictures in the links)
- Mysterious Friday the 13th Explosion Shreds Streets
Kentucky Guard on Duty in “Old Louisville” Lots of pictures.
Next is an example a backdraft generating a mild over pressure destroying a brick building and killing three firefighters:
Note the explanation on backdraft in the presentation. Corresponding article here.
Example of a dust explosion:
The Buncefield Incident was large open air explosion that involved hydrocarbon vapor that flowed along the ground to the surrounding area before exploding (deflagration). You will find the reports here:
You should look at volume 1 of the final report, make sure that you read Annex 4 about open flammable cloud explosions, and note the discussion about turbulence. Lots of pictures. Also the report on explosion mechanism from 2007 could be of interest, but the essence is in annex 4.
Here is a lecture on fire and explosion from Michigan Tech by professor Crowl giving a bit of theory on fire and explosion:
- http://www.chem.mtu.edu/~crowl/cm4310/Chapter6b.pdf
- http://www.chem.mtu.edu/~crowl/cm4310/Chapter6a.pdf
These are just a few examples. Just google the keywords and you will find tons of information and examples on fire, dust explosions, deflagrations, bakcdraft, etc.
BigAl
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Here's an explosion in a paint warehouse of some sort to add to your impressive list.
You call it "inaccuracies", I call it a lie. NIST wants to spread the myth of falling cars.
Car 50 did not fall all the way down to the pit, it stopped before, (the passengers were rescued), but NIST claims the opposite. This is no "detail", it has great significant:
There are only 2 shafts, which were going from the impact zone all the way down to the basement, (car 6, 7, 50). NIST has only 3 strikes: Car 6, 7 or 50. No more.
Cars 6, 7 could not have fallen all the way to the pit, because they were parked in the Basement - due to an elevator "modernization"
program. So it is reported, that the cars 6, 7 were burning out a B1, and their doors were blown off. If their deep fall were stopped by a piston, why were not the cars destroyed?No more cars could have fallen "all the way down" to the basement ... but the problem is:
There are many witness accounts of "falling cars", which caused explosions in the Basement levels. How is this possible, when all shafts were mainly blocked by the cars?
NIST: "Cars 6 and 50 could have fallen all the way to the pit in the sub-basement level, and car 50 in WTC 1 was reported to have done so. http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1-7.pdf
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... please try to answer my question, why cars 6,7 were not destroyed by this super-explosive material.
my question:
I cannot understand, why the cars 6, 7 parked on B1 were not destroyed by the explosive material, but the same explosive material could destroy walls in B4. Especially due to the fact, that the cars of 6, 7 blocked the shaft to 75 %. So the cars got 75 % of this explosive material, and the shaft only 25 %.
The myth was spread from the beginning on. We all know, that car 50 did not fall all the way down to the basement. Nevertheless the witnesses were made believe in this myth. NIST just overtook this lie.
for example:
Construction worker Phillip Morelli, B 4, WTC 1:
"It knocked me right to the floor. You didn’t know what it was. Of course you’re assuming something just fell over in the loading dock, something very heavy, something very big, you don’t know what happened, and all of a sudden you just felt the floor moving and you get up and the walls…And then you know, I mean now I’m hearing that the main freight car, the elevators fell down, so I was right near the main freight car so I assume what that was."
I read it somewhere before that the towers were designed not to allow air to flow from the top to the bottom through the elevator shafts. This would be a safety design to help prevent fires from spreading ala "The Towering Inferno".
I've read the testimonies of witnesses in the sublevels that the explosion below wasn't a fireball, but an actual explosion that destroyed large machinery and blew office doors off their hinges. Also, how could it be that the explosion that took place in the basement happened before the plane impact?
You guys better have a prayer meeting and get your stories straight.
I've read the testimonies of witnesses in the sublevels that the explosion below wasn't a fireball, but an actual explosion that destroyed large machinery and blew office doors off their hinges. Also, how could it be that the explosion that took place in the basement happened before the plane impact?
You guys better have a prayer meeting and get your stories straight.
once again with the faith thing Kreel. You have something against organized religion or something? you seem obsessed.
Anyway, you want to tell me how an explosion and a fireball are mutually exclusive?
As for the explosion occurring before plane impact...whoever said it is simply mistaken. End of story.
TAM
Anyway, you want to tell me how an explosion and a fireball are mutually exclusive?
As for the explosion occurring before plane impact...whoever said it is simply mistaken. End of story.
TAM
leftysergeant
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Youread some total BS, then. An air-tight shaft would not work. The elevators would create a vaccuum on one side and over-pressurize the other.
"Hermetically-sealed elevators work as well as a blown-glass sledgehammer.
And none of the people in the path of the blast had their eardrums pounded into the centers of their skulls, leaving them permannetly deaf.
Yeah, RIGHT. That was not a resul;t of a bpmb. It is consistant with the deflagration of jet fuel in and enclosed spae, and more people than just Filpe were burned. It was jet fuel. Live with it.
No such thing happened Willy didn't see the crash, so he just ASSUMED that the blasts were prior to impact. Schroeder blows him out of the water by describing a second blast AFTER the impact. Schroeder's account blows Willie out of the water, and Schroeder is sort of a twoofer.
Don't come in here and present the same old garbage as something new.
BigAl
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Where to start.
Rodriguez' "large machinery" ( a "50 ton press" I recall) weights about 200 pounds, can sit on a bench and is easy to tip over if not bolted down to "earthquake" building codes. Here's one for example:
I guess you never heard of 'backdraft explosions". Here's an explosion caused only by a little paint vapor. There was tons of vapor in each towoer on 9/11. It easily fits Rodriguez testimony for what he saw on 9/11.
So KreeL never had anything to do with fire training (many people have) and never saw in any sort of a mechanical shop. (Many people have). This explains why the "Truth Movement" is so tiny and wrong in it's claims.
BigAl
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Firemen know that on 9/11 liquid gas and gas vapor filled the towers from top to bottom and the fires and explosions of that gas killed people. Until you, bio, acknowledge that as a fact, all your made up numbers, pseudo-logic, unfounded conjecture and argument from incredulity count for nothing.
Gas vapor has more explosive power than TNT.
You are making up numbers for the dimensions and positions of the elevator cars and are making up unfounded and incorrect conclusions based on made-up numbers. You display ignorance about how fuel vapor and fuel explosions work.
Don't speak percentages. Speak square feet. You don't appreciate how big those cars were and much space there is around an elevator car.
People who's lives depend on knowing how dangerous and explosive vapor is (firemen) don't agree with the points you are arguing.
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Seymour Butz
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