Crazy American-style Siege Unfolding

[GreNME]

Good news all around!

Now Fi can rejoin his friends Fee, Fo, and Fum.

If I were the type to just post an "LOL" response, this post would have been one to cause it.

 

[Carnivore]

Now there are reports of explosions at the scene.

Also it doesn't look like all the neighbours were evacuated prior to the police entry on to the property to recover the body of their colleague.

Chaucer Rd resident Wayne Rollinson - who had a clear view of Molenaar's house up the road - told the Weekend Herald he could see bomb squad robots being used to recover Mr Snee's body.

"Two tanks came in to get the body. They passed him to one tank, which came out and the other one stayed there.

"Jan was firing and there was returned fire too - I wouldn't be surprised if he got shot.

"We thought he might've got shot - it was quiet. And then there were more shots. It was like he'd pull the trigger once and 10 shots came out."

Mr Rollinson said he heard an initial volley of about six rounds, and he was sure it was Molenaar firing.

Then came more rapid automatic fire, this time up to 20 rounds.

This was when "the tanks and armed offenders squad opened up".

He said that around 9.45pm, police officers were still on the street.

"It's all dark and he [Molenaar] is still up there. There's no movement, no noise, nothing. But there's still cops outside his house and on the street."

 

[gumboot]

Police are saying as far as they're concerned the guy is still alive and dangerous, until he is confirmed otherwise.

Apparently one of the wounded police officers might not make it - he's in an induced coma after having his spleen removed and isn't in a good way at all.

 

[BTMO]

New Zealand houses are made of wood? What sort of remark is that? NZ houses are made out of all sorts of material. And as mentioned, according to police everyone within the immediate "danger zone" has been evacuated.

A rifle bullet from pretty much any of the centrefire calibres will pass through several layers of wood, and especially internal walls, at ranges of several hundred metres.

There are still people within line of sight of the house within that range.

The "immediate" danger zone may have been evacuated, but the actual one certainly hasn't.

In any case, this is starting to appear academic. It is begining to look like he may be dead.

 

[BPSCG]

Apparently one of the wounded police officers might not make it - he's in an induced coma after having his spleen removed and isn't in a good way at all.

I had my spleen taken out in 1986. It's a nice thing to have, but you can live at least 23 years without one. Hope for the best.

 

[gumboot]

Reports are it's all over. Police have entered the house and confirmed the offender's body is inside. The house is currently rigged with explosives, however, and too dangerous to be entered.

 

[PhantomWolf]

My biggest worry in all of this has been the number of people calling for NZ Police to be armed in the misbelief that it would stop this type of incident. The statistics don't back this up.

In the past 20 years NZ has had 8 officers killed, of those deaths one was armed at the time. Of the other 7 there is a possiblity that three might have been able to return fire, Constable McKibben who was shot from behind in a drive by, but survived, only to killed when the offender returned, Sergeant Wilkinson who was shot last Nov, and Senior Constable Snee, whom this thread is about. Note that this is only possibly. McKibben was seriously injured and most likely would not have been able to stop his attacker and we don't know what occured in SC Snee's death as of yet.

Now let's compare this to a country with a similar country that has armed police, Australia. In the last 20 years they have had 111 officers killed. Even taking into account the population different, this is around 12 for armed police to 8 for unarmed. Quite simply the claim that arming our police would prevent Police deaths does not stack up, but rather it appears that we have less deaths having unarmed police.

 

[kerikiwi]

The house appears to have had a stash of firearms, ammunition and explosives, not to mention the cannabis which seems to be the cause of it all.(Whether or not possession should be a crime is another question. At the moment it is)
Molenaar's partner, who fled at the outset, must have had knowledge of that.
She bears a high degree of reponsibility for the death of Senior Constable Snee, and the wounding of the other three victims.
I hope she faces some charges.

 

[gumboot]

My biggest worry in all of this has been the number of people calling for NZ Police to be armed in the misbelief that it would stop this type of incident. The statistics don't back this up.

In the past 20 years NZ has had 8 officers killed, of those deaths one was armed at the time. Of the other 7 there is a possiblity that three might have been able to return fire, Constable McKibben who was shot from behind in a drive by, but survived, only to killed when the offender returned, Sergeant Wilkinson who was shot last Nov, and Senior Constable Snee, whom this thread is about. Note that this is only possibly. McKibben was seriously injured and most likely would not have been able to stop his attacker and we don't know what occured in SC Snee's death as of yet.

I'm not keen on seeing armed police either, but I can't agree with your arguments here, and I think looking at it simply as a "would the dead officer survive?" question is a bit simplistic.

I don't think it's just a case of police being armed either, and I think that's the crux of the issue. An armed officer is only useful if they're ready and prepared to use their weapon. That requires a totally different attitude from police, an attitude that any given offender could be a deadly threat. That's the real reason people are opposed to armed police. Another thing to consider is obviously body armour.

You have to ask yourself, not only, "Would an armed officer be able to fire back?" but "Would an officer anticipating a threat get hurt in the first place?"

I saw a video, once, of an American police officer who had pulled someone over for a routine check. Their car camera caught the stop. Unknown to him, the car was stolen and the driver was armed. As he approached the car he had one hand on his pistol, despite it being a routine check.

As he reached the driver's window the driver shot him, hitting him in the chest. In the blink of an eye the officer spun away, drew his pistol, and fired three shots into the car, neutralising the threat.

If that had been a New Zealand officer he would have died, and the criminal would have got away. The reason for the difference wasn't as simple as the American officer being armed.

1) He was armed
2) He approached the incident with the possibility of needing to use his firearm
3) He wore body armour
4) He was adequately trained to react immediately and instinctively to an armed threat

Now, let's look at the last eight NZ Police officers killed by criminal act in the line of duty:

Senior Constable Peter Morris Umbers
End of Watch: 27 May 1990

In Ranfurly, Central Otago, was bashed with his PR24 baton when he stopped Richard Thomas Lakich, a robbery suspect.
Lakich pleaded guilty to the murder and was sentenced to life imprisonment.
Senior Constable Umbers was awarded the George Medal.

What you have to ask is, would an armed police officer, trained and prepared to use their weapon, allow a criminal suspect to get close enough to steal their baton and turn it on them?

No.

Sergeant Stewart Graeme Guthrie
End of Watch: 13 November 1990

On 13 November 1990, at Aramoana (a seaside resort near Dunedin), a man ran amok with a firearm killing 12 people and wounded many more civilians. Sergeant Guthrie, who was the sole duty officer at Port Chalmers Police Station, went immediately to the resort. When he arrived, he gathered together another police constable, and both of them (now armed) went after the gunman. They finally located him inside his house, whereupon the police constable took position at the front of the house whilst Sergeant Guthrie took position at the rear of the property; the more dangerous of the two positions. During this time, Sergeant Guthrie had kept his control fully informed of the latest situation.

The gunman then left the house by the front entrance and went towards the police constable. When challenged by this officer, the gunman retreated back into the house. Meanwhile, Sergeant Guthrie had taken cover in a cottage next to the gunman's house. Suddenly the gunman appeared out of the rear of the house. Sergeant Guthrie challenged the gunman, and fired a shot into the air. The gunman responded by firing a series of shots, which killed Sergeant Guthrie.

Sergeant Guthrie was posthumously awarded the George Cross. The citation was published in the London Gazette on 18 February 1992.

Would a police officer, properly trained in firearms use, have gone into such a situation without body armour, and would they have given two challenges to such an armed suspect and fired a warning shot?

No.

Constable Glenn Arthur McKibben
End of Watch: 21 April 1996

In Flaxmere, Hastings, was shot by an occupant of a passing vehicle while standing beside his patrol car.

After an extensive search, the suspect was located in an orchard in Havelock North. Terence Thompson, a former soldier, was shot in a standoff with Police.

Is there, in all liklihood, anything that would have changed this situation? No. Body armour perhaps, but this was a random drive-by shooting.

Constable Lester Murray Stretch
End of Watch: 6 May 1999

In Mangakino, Constable Stretch attended to reports of a burglary at a local store. Upon his arrival he located Carlos Namana, and chased him from the store. Namana was caught at the entrance to the local hospital, but over powered Constable Stretch, and beat him to death.
He died at the scene of extensive head injuries.

Namana was arrested the following day and charged with murder. He pleaded guilty and received life imprisonment, with a minimum non-parole period of 16 years.

Would an armed and properly trained officer have allowed a suspected burglar to approach them, overpower them, and beat then to death?

I find that hard to believe.

(Also worth noting, as indication of how complex this issue is, part of officer safety is never being alone - all of the officers thus far were alone when killed.)

Detective Duncan Taylor
End of Watch: 5 July 2002

Detective Constable Taylor 39, was shot and killed when he and his partner attempted to stop a juvenile to question him about a property offence. The constables saw the youth driving a car at Rongotea and attempted to stop him. The boy drove to a nearby home and stopped. As Detective Constable exited his vehicle the boy opened fire, fatally wounding him. His partner then attempted to flee on foot but was struck in the thigh as she ran for cover.

The boy then ran into the home and held three people hostage for several hours. After the hostages escaped teargas was fired into the home, causing the boy to come out and fire more shots. When the boy came out of the home a second time he was taken into custody.

He was charged with murder, attempted murder, and other charges.

Again, this is a case where being armed would probably have made no difference, but having body armour might or might not. But look what happened after the shooting.

His partner then attempted to flee on foot but was struck in the thigh as she ran for cover.

The boy then ran into the home and held three people hostage for several hours. After the hostages escaped teargas was fired into the home, causing the boy to come out and fire more shots. When the boy came out of the home a second time he was taken into custody.

His partner would have been armed and properly trained. Instead of fleeing she could have returned fire, neutralising the threat and avoiding further hours of crisis in which numerous members of the public were put in danger.

Sergeant Derek Wootton
End of Duty: 11 July 2008

Sergeant Wootton, 52, was working night shift when a report was received of an alleged serious assault and car jacking. Police patrols saw the vehicle near Porirua and a pursuit ensued to Titahi Bay, north of Porirua.

In an effort to stop the vehicle, Sergeant Wootton laid road spikes in a suburban street in the early hours of 11 July. Tragically he was struck as the vehicle went over the spikes.
Despite the best efforts of colleagues and ambulance officers, he died at the scene.

A 32-year-old man appeared in the Porirua District Court on 11 July charged with dangerous driving, dangerous driving causing death and failing to stop after a motor accident.

He was also charged with aggravated robbery, the theft of a Honda Prelude and kidnapping a 16-year-old youth.

I think we can agree firearms would not have many any difference in this instance.

Sergeant Don Wilkinson
End of Duty: 11 September 2008

Sergeant Don Wilkinson was fatally shot while carrying out undercover duties in Mangere in the early hours of Thursday 11 September 2008.

He was one of two plainclothes officers shot while trying to install a tracking device on a vehicle outside a suspected P lab.

Two men were arrested in relation to the attack. A 32-year-old man was charged with murder and a 34-year-old man was charged with assault.

Had these two officers been armed and properly trained, Wilkinson may well have still been killed (preserving undercover status by attempting to escape would probably still be initial action) however his partner could have at least returned fire. Potentially, the police could have retreated, then when realised they were being chased by armed persons they could have drawn their weapons and may have avoided being shot at all together.

And the latest incident. Three police officers were present. Even assuming Leonard Snee was shot, one of the other two, if armed and adequately trained, could have immediately returned fire, killing the offender, preventing the long, dangerous siege, and potentially allowing medical aid to come to Snee soon enough to save his life.

At present we don't know the nature of Snee's injuries so we can't be sure what difference armour or earlier recovery might have made.


If you look through the older cases of police officers being killed, the same general trend occurs. Officers properly armed, trained, and equipped, with the right mindset in approaching suspects, with partners, would have had a much better chance of survival, and at very least, would have avoided situations escalating and members of the public being put in danger.

The question is, are police officers dying and being severly injured at a rate that justifies these changes at the cost of the open, approachable, friendly police service we have thus far enjoyed.

I believe we're on the brink. In any given year, 1 in 4 police officers is assaulted. We have had three killed in the space of a single year - twelve times the average fatality rate. The police are struggling to find officers to work in South Auckland simply because they consider it too dangerous, so no one wants to do it. If we start implementing non-voluntary placement for officers we can expect to lose them in droves.

The bottom line is that our police do not feel safe, and if they do not feel safe, they cannot keep us safe.

Arming police is only one of a number of options, and if implemented it would only amount to a part of the solution anyway.

I would like to see what police have been proposing which is essentially arming I-car units (those that respond to 111 calls). I also think, while the stab-proof vests were a good idea, they're not enough - they should have gone straight to ballistic vests.

And as the last two shootings have shown, police need to improve their intelligence gathering - both cases were assessed as very low risk, but in hindsight both should have been assessed as potentially volatile.

 

[BTMO]

I would like to see what police have been proposing which is essentially arming I-car units (those that respond to 111 calls). I also think, while the stab-proof vests were a good idea, they're not enough - they should have gone straight to ballistic vests.

I have no issue with most of your post - indeed, I found myself nodding in agreement with pretty much all of it - but most firearms incidents in NZ involve rifles.

Standard ballistic vests don't stop rifle bullets. They can be uprated by adding ceramic plates that will stop rifle bullets - but these are heavy and I don't honestly know if police here even use or have access to them.

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

Well, you'd also have to enter in the number of accidental shootings that would happen if the police are armed into the cost/benefit equation.

Also, cops are known to be horribly poor shots around here .

 

[BTMO]

Well, you'd also have to enter in the number of accidental shootings that would happen if the police are armed into the cost/benefit equation.

Also, cops are known to be horribly poor shots around here .

True story time - I used to belong to a pistol club, that was used by the police and army for training purposes.

We could always tell when the army had been on the range - live ammo was left lying around.

We could always tell when the police had been there - new holes in the roof.

No, I am not making this up.

 

[gumboot]

I have no issue with most of your post - indeed, I found myself nodding in agreement with pretty much all of it - but most firearms incidents in NZ involve rifles.

I'd argue shotguns and low caliber and low velocity rifles are the most common firearms used in incidents here, as opposed to high velocity rifles.

Bear in mind that killings are a fraction of firearms incidents. According to a Police Association survey, 11% of police were threatened with firearms in the last year. The previous two police shootings (one fatal) were with a modified air gun.

You're right, of course, that standard ballistic vests won't stop everything, but I think they would make a substantial difference, particularly given the tight controls we have on high velocity weapons. Also consider that technology for lightweight vests is improving. Class IIIA kevlar armour is pretty common now - there's only two classes above that (Class III (7.62x51NATO) and Class IV (Armour piercing)).

Also... a friend of mine was shot with an AK-47 in Bosnia, while wearing a standard ballistic vest (as opposed to a heavier ceramic one). The vest didn't stop the bullet going through his back, but it did stop the bullet exiting out his chest along with half his chest cavity. It saved his life.

 

[gumboot]

Well, you'd also have to enter in the number of accidental shootings that would happen if the police are armed into the cost/benefit equation.

Also, cops are known to be horribly poor shots around here .

Aye, that's where training comes into it. Currently New Zealand police don't get much firearms training and most of them simply are not comfortable or familiar with firearms. Just giving them weapons would be an utter disaster. You'd have to incorporate rigorous training and regular shooting practice.

 

[Euromutt]

No, I am not making this up.

I'll believe that. There's an outdoor range in unincorporated King County, the Interlake Sporting Association, that was threatened with closure after a bullet went over a backstop and went into a residential neighborhood beyond (where it missed a pedestrian by a few feet).

Thing was, the bullet in question hadn't been fired by a club member, but by an officer of the Kirkland Police Department, which used the range for training purposes, but had an unfortunate tendency towards nonchalance regarding the club safety rules.

 

[BTMO]

You're right, of course, that standard ballistic vests won't stop everything, but I think they would make a substantial difference, particularly given the tight controls we have on high velocity weapons.

I am sorry - I can't agree with this. The restrictions on firearms in NZ are based on capacity or concealability rather than velocity.

You can go into any gun shop in the country and (if you have the money) buy a 50BMG rifle. There is one in the Hamills shop in Wellington, for example.

You can also purchase any other centre fire calibre I can think of.

Also consider that technology for lightweight vests is improving. Class IIIA kevlar armour is pretty common now - there's only two classes above that (Class III (7.62x51NATO) and Class IV (Armour piercing)).

Also... a friend of mine was shot with an AK-47 in Bosnia, while wearing a standard ballistic vest (as opposed to a heavier ceramic one). The vest didn't stop the bullet going through his back, but it did stop the bullet exiting out his chest along with half his chest cavity. It saved his life.

Holy crap!!

All I can say about that was ... he was lucky!

 

[a_unique_person]

Two weeks ago I sat next to a gay interracial couple at a Lisa Lampanelli concert.

Yeah, it's kind of like that.

Yeah, that's the old WM-BM thing we have heard so much about here.

 

[gumboot]

I am sorry - I can't agree with this. The restrictions on firearms in NZ are based on capacity or concealability rather than velocity.

You can go into any gun shop in the country and (if you have the money) buy a 50BMG rifle. There is one in the Hamills shop in Wellington, for example.

You can also purchase any other centre fire calibre I can think of.

Aye, you're quite right on this point. I stand corrected.

Holy crap!!

All I can say about that was ... he was lucky!

Unfortunately two of his comrades weren't. Both leg wounds. Both bled to death. 1st Battalion, Parachute Regiment.

Oh, it was Kosovo, not Bosnia. My error.

 

[WildCat]

Aye, that's where training comes into it. Currently New Zealand police don't get much firearms training and most of them simply are not comfortable or familiar with firearms. Just giving them weapons would be an utter disaster. You'd have to incorporate rigorous training and regular shooting practice.

I don't know why TB said what he did, but I know for a fact that Chicago police (and TB lives in Chicago) are on average excellent shots. They do train frequently, and spend a lot of time on the range. In fact, if you don't become a proficient shot you don't get to wear the badge. I have one friend who made it through all the police training, but ultimately never was able to become an officer because she was never able to pass the shooting test after 3 attempts.

It's rare for the criminal to come out ahead in a shootout with the police. 95% of the time the perp ends up dead or wounded.