Although I have only made a few post recently, I have posted reasonably large posts and supplied answers on who the scientists are that have evidence for a young earth and creationist interpretation of the very same facts we all have to work with. It appears that all here would rather believe that these scientists, with PhDs and Masters degrees from the very same universities as scientists that believe in evolution both in a cosmological sense and biological sense, are all liars,
ignoramuses or both.
Even assuming that they have a Ph.D. and Masters degrees in subjects relevant to what they're talking about, such a degree is no protection from being wrong.
I can answer over and over again questions on contradictions in the bible, I can supply names of creation and ID scientists for people to look up, I can present the main points of creation and ID science, but what I have learned is that none of that is new stuff for anyone here. You all know the points and the people and have already made your decisions. OK, I accept that. I also have made my decision for Jesus and the Bible being true and correct in all that it discusses. I freely admit I will never change my mind on this for many of the reasons I have already stated.
This is sad to hear. You essentially admit that you are not willing to ever change your viewpoint, that you are so grounded in your personal dogma that you will do nothing but cling to your own viewpoints.
I have not delved very deeply into the fallacies of other religions. I see no real point now since my argument that Christianity and science are not in contradiction is not remotely accepted here. To show that Christianity and science are in agreement is also an excellent way to show how other religions are false since they have obvious factual errors when they touch on scientific matters. Here at JREF, Christianity is also seen that way, and no one concedes the I have any valid points at all, so I have no foundation to move on from in the discussion.
If by "Christianity" you mean all that lies in the bible, then you have almost all that's encapsulated by any other belief system. You have talking animals, miraculous events, prophetic heroes, incredible happenings... about the same as you see in any other belief system, Christian, Greek, Norse, etc. The only way to have Christianity and science line up is to trim out all those things that I just mentioned, bit by bit, and fill it with the God of the Gaps.
I have also touched on some of the difficult doctrines of Christianity regarding the true nature of humankind. I completely understand that many people do not see a loving merciful gracious God in scripture, especially in the Old Testament. I am personally convinced this is because they do not correctly understand the full scope of what is going on in the particular instances that seem harsh and cruel. All I can do is present, to the best of my ability, logical rational answers as to what is really going on in some of the difficult situations and passages in the Bible that deal with issues that many find cruel and immoral by God. For example, many people have brought up the misconception that God condones slavery. This is a misunderstanding and application of the modern and western definition of slavery. A Hebrew bondservant is not at all like what we consider a slave in a modern sense. A Hebrew bondservant was protected by law and to be treated very well by their master. A simple study on this issue in ancient Hebrew language and culture will shed a whole new light on the subject.
Ignoring the fact that the bible actually does condone abusing a slave (as long as he doesn't die right away from such abuse) and similar horrible things, lack of freedom is still lack of freedom. It doesn't matter how well you treat someone -- taking away someone's dignity and freedom by making them one of your possessions, no matter how pampered, is still immoral.
If you brought up the issues of genocide, I somehow doubt that you'll find it so easy to defend, though. And stating "You don't know all the details" is just a cop-out. When an entire city is wiped out in the name of some ethnic group, that is wrong.
So, at this point, this is what I would like anyone who reads my posts to understand:
Jesus in not your enemy, Christianity is not your enemy, nor are true Christians you enemy in any way.
If I was to be punished for not following arbitrary hurdles, then the one that would punish me would be my enemy. According to your beliefs, this would make God my enemy. The only fortunate thing is, God probably doesn't exist... but if he did, then he would be my enemy, and I would refuse to ally myself with him.
True Christians are not violent or hostile toward anyone of any belief system. A true Christian will vehemently oppose the philosophy and doctrines of all other belief systems, it is important to do so because of the doctrine of salvation, but we are commanded by Jesus to love the people of all belief systems.
It is important to do so because of the doctrine of salvation -- for punishment lies ahead if you do not reach the conclusion that you're "supposed" to and fulfill the ritual acts that you are "supposed" to. You make yourself a slave to your beliefs, whereas I remain a free man.
All a true Christian can do is verbally pronounce the philosophies and doctrines of other belief systems false. That’s it, nothing more.
With nothing to support your denouncement, though, this is still rather a shallow ability.
We are required and commanded to love and care for the people of those opposing belief systems. If a Christian goes any further than verbal opposition to another religion or belief system, they have gone too far and are very possibly a counterfeit. I will be side by side with you denouncing anyone, whether they call them selves a Christian or not, if they try to take away your free will to decide for your self what you believe.
This, and this alone, is the only thing I see worth any amount of respect.
In Luke 6:27 we have the essence of how a true Christian is to relate to people of any other belief system, "But I say to you who hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. 29 To one who strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also, and from one who takes away your cloak do not withhold your tunic either. 30 Give to everyone who begs from you, and from one who takes away your goods do not demand them back. 31 And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them. 32 "If you love those who love you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who do good to you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to get back the same amount. 35 But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil. 36 Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful. 37 "Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven; 38 give, and it will be given to you. Good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For with the measure you use it will be measured back to you."
If someone says they are a Christian and they do not treat you as Jesus told us to above, dismiss them as a true Christian and categorize them as counterfeits. You do notice it does not say to not contend with people of other belief systems about their beliefs. That would also go against what Jesus has commanded His disciples to do. Jesus told us in Matthew 28:19-20 to “19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” The key is that Jesus told us to teach people to observe (follow) all the things Jesus taught. He said He was the one and only way to get to Heaven. In John 14:6 Jesus says, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.” So a true Christian must tell you about Jesus, and that He is the only way you will ever get to see Heaven. But that is all a true Christian can do, is tell you. We can’t try anything to force you to believe this or do anything to punish you because you don’t. Unfortunately there have been plenty of counterfeit Christians who have done, and still do, horrible things to people in the name of Christ. That is not real and true Christianity nor does Jesus have anything to do with it.
Not much I can say on this bit.
You might ask, “why does Jesus then allow all the terrible things that have been done in His name to happen? If He is really God, why doesn’t He stop that garbage?” For the very same reason a true Christian can’t do any more than just tell you about Jesus; He will not override your free will to choose what you believe for your self.
A child does not choose to have cancer. A city does not choose to suffer the torrent of a hurricane. A farmer does not choose to lose his property, and possibly his life to a tornado. No one chose to suffer from powerful tsunamis.
It is funny how the natural world is just as tenacious and vicious as God's followers -- but has little to do with free will.
If Jesus was to instantly destroy every person that sinned, people would submit to Him out of fear, not because of love and by free will.
Well, while this is an interesting explanation, I must say this: The world would act the same whether or not your explanation were true. In short, your explanation only seems tacked on to explain the world as it is from the basis that all you assume is true... because if all you assumed was false, then the world would still function just as it does today. In this way, I have no reason to accept your explanation as nothing more than that -- something tacked on to explain things that you cannot otherwise.
You may like what the New Testament teaches, and have real problems with the Old Testament, and can’t understand how Christians reconcile the two. I believe why most people see the God of the Old Testament as a blood thirsty immoral being is because they are focused on His judging a nation or people and have an emotional sentimental response to His judging people, and, they do not understand human nature is bad not good. In Exodus 34:6-7 God describes His character to us in His own words, “6 And the LORD passed before him (Moses) and proclaimed, "The LORD, the LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abounding in goodness and truth, 7 keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children and the children's children to the third and the fourth generation." God chooses first to offer His mercy and grace to us before He ever judges us. He does not want to judge us. He only does it when we force Him to by rejecting Him and reconciliation through the salvation provided to us by Jesus. In Ezekiel 33:11 God says, “Say to them: 'As I live,' says the Lord GOD, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live.” What you must understand about God in the Old Testament is that He never judges anyone until He has suffered their rebellion and sin against Him for a Long time. He does not want to judge anyone, He only does so when there is no hope of repentance and salvation for a person or nation.
Then we always get to the kids. Why did God have to judge the kids along with the adults? You know, I don’t know in 100% certainty. Scripture does not clearly and plainly state why. All we can do is make some deductions as to what might be going on. Here is my best personal answer. I believe, because I know the nature of God through so many scriptures, as some provided above, and personal experience of His nature in my and others lives, there is mercy contained in His judgment somehow when kids are caught in it. One thought I have is that the kids, being to young to know right from wrong, are taken to Heaven and live with God there for the rest of eternity. If they were left to grow up in the vile, murderous and utterly corrupt cultures they were living in, they would have been lost to Him. Because I know the nature of God, He could judge the nation and save the kids, He just might do something like that. When you think of things in an eternal perspective like God does, it does not matter, in the much larger scope of eternity, that a life here on earth might have been relatively short compared to the average earthly life. I state once again, God never judges anyone unless there is no hope for them and He is forced to judge them because He is the perfect, holy, sinless, creator God that is also the righteous judge, and cannot let sin go unpunished. Yes all sin is judged and punished. Either a person’s sin was placed on Jesus, and He bore the punishment for it, or the person still has their sin and they have to bear the punishment.
Have you heard of "doublethink"? It's a concept explained in 1984 -- of the ability to assume two separate, and contradictory things as being true, at the same time. You have just demonstrated double think.
Notice: You justify God judging, condemning, and punishing people on Earth in the Old Testament because they didn't follow his will. Earlier in your post, however, you made it very clear that God did not punish evil that his followers did because he supported free will, and did not want people to follow him out of fear.
These are contradictory. In one, he is directly impacting the world to influence people's will. In the other, he refuses to directly impact the world so as not to influence people's will. The only reason one can assume these two simultaneously, is to assume that God "changed his mind" halfway through all of this. But that would also assume that his will is flawed... and thus make him that much less perfect a deity, and that much more arbitrary in thought and deed.
If you don’t agree with a single thing I have said, that is fine, I won’t hate you and will still care about you. All I can do is communicate the truth God has revealed to us in scripture.
The problem is, no matter what anyone says, you will continue to see it as "the truth God has revealed to us in scripture". You cannot accept that what is in scripture can very well be simply conjured in the minds of men without any presence of a supernatural force.
That is it, I can not go any further and must respect your right to choose what you believe for your self. But why myself, Kathy and some other Christians are here at JREF is because our Lord Jesus Christ commands us to care about you, and warn you about your dire situation outside of Christ’s salvation. He is also teaching us how to love you, almost perfect strangers, we only know through the cold and sterile textile environment of an online forum. I don’t want to win arguments, or win debates, or to be right. I only want to do as my Lord commands and care for you in the best way I can in an online forum and tell you that you are loved, loved so very deeply, by the one who created you and desperately wants to be reconciled back to you. I will leave it at that for now.
You want to cling to your beliefs, no matter the evidence for or against, and you share those beliefs only in the desire to get others to believe as you do. You say this is to save one's soul -- and then you praise the very God that requires us to leap through such arbitrary hurdles to save ourselves. You act the beaten slave while praising the invisible yet, according to your own teachings, cruel master.
The existence of hell alone, or any concept of torturing one in the afterlife for not following his arbitrary rituals and believing, despite all natural evidence, in something that is downright hard to believe... that is cruel, that is unjust, and that is why I can do nothing but look on you with sadness.
Even if one were to reject the concept of hell, and say that we simply "cease to be" instead of going to God and being happy in the afterlife (which some believe)... then how is this any less objectionable? He only pulls to himself the sycophants, allows them happiness, and just ignores all the others. This is not the action of a being capable of unconditional love. Just think of it -- a dog is capable of more love than this god. Why? Because a dog knows how to love unconditionally. God does not.
You say you cannot hate me. I cannot hate you either. But you act the martyr, where you are nothing of the sort. You spout your beliefs, expect others to follow it, and ultimately believe that there is something "wrong" if they do not. You act the slave, you praise the slavery, you praise the slaver, and then you offer the chains with a smile.
The smile may be friendly. The actions are not.
Even if you are not my enemy, this does not make you my friend.
By attempting to offer me salvation, you are stating that there is a problem. That problem will lead to disastrous consequences if I do not follow your guidebook. By suggesting this, you already call me a lesser being.
You may not be my enemy, but you do insult me. If God cannot accept me for who I am, as I am, then he can bugger off. I'd expect more from a perfect deity. . . and I'd expect more from the messengers he would choose.
