Man kills thief, accomplice charged with murder.

Ranb

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Authorities do not plan to file charges against a Florida orange grove owner who fatally shot a 21-year-old woman, saying he is protected under the state's controversial "no retreat" law. But the woman's boyfriend faces second-degree murder charges in her death, because the woman was shot to death during an alleged felony -- the theft of an SUV.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/04/30/florida.shooting.law/index.html

He said he was sorry for what happened "and said he knew he was partially responsible for her death,"

I wonder if his words and actions will expose him to a civil lawsuit which could be brought by the dead woman’s relatives.

Ranb
 
If there was car control, this wouldn't have happened either.

Actually, considering he hit what he was shooting at, it seems his gun control was pretty good.
 
I don't like this law, it blurs the relationship between action and responsibility.

Say Al robs two liquor stores, accompanied first by Bob and then by Carl. The first robbery goes as planned and they run off with the till. In the second robbery, Carl freaks out and shoots the clerk before they run off.

If Al gets caught for the first robbery, he's charged as a robber. If he gets caught for the second robbery, he's charged as a robber and a murderer, even though his actions and motives are exactly the same as the first.

I don't like laws that tack on an "you got unlucky" penalty to the penalty for criminal actions and motives.
 
I don't like laws that tack on an "you got unlucky" penalty to the penalty for criminal actions and motives.
Nothing unlucky about it. If he stopped when the guy told him to his g/f would be alive and he'd face only auto theft charges.

Of course, if he hadn't decided to steal a car in the first place he wouldn't even face that. But he chose a high-risk lifestyle, and chose it all by himself.
 
I don't like this law, it blurs the relationship between action and responsibility.

Say Al robs two liquor stores, accompanied first by Bob and then by Carl. The first robbery goes as planned and they run off with the till. In the second robbery, Carl freaks out and shoots the clerk before they run off.

If Al gets caught for the first robbery, he's charged as a robber. If he gets caught for the second robbery, he's charged as a robber and a murderer, even though his actions and motives are exactly the same as the first.

I don't like laws that tack on an "you got unlucky" penalty to the penalty for criminal actions and motives.

The question of what to do when an illegal or irresponsible action leads to disproportionate consequences is a good one. In New England, we had the case of the Station nightclub fire.

Basically, a band went on stage at an overcrowded nightclub and started their act. The stage had some soundproofing on the sides to prevent massive echoing in the space, but this was really just packing materials that were not fire retardant.

The band and the nightclub owners disagree on whether or not the band had permission to use pyrotechnics, but three sparklers were used in the show. The soundproofing caught fire almost immediately and in less than a minute, the entire stage was in flames.

Way too many people raced for far too few exits, and within an hour the nightclub was burned down and a hundred people were dead.

Even assuming the worst intentions, all the band manager wanted to do was set off some sparklers without permission, yet the consequences of his act were horrific. He was sentenced to four years in prison, and people couldn't decide if this was fair or not. Some people thought that he should spend far more time in prison for the deaths of almost a hundred people.

You also had the club owners, who did not have a sprinkler system installed as required by law, but no one had noticed including fire inspectors (The building was very old and was thought to be exempt, but they had changed the building from a restaurant to a nightclub and lost the exemption without realizing it). One recived a four year sentence, the other had his prison time suspended.

How do you judge something like that?
 
He said he was sorry for what happened "and said he knew he was partially responsible for her death,"

I wonder if his words and actions will expose him to a civil lawsuit which could be brought by the dead woman’s relatives.

I doubt his words will expose him to much more liability than his actions did. He's already exposed to a second-degree murder charge and his girlfriend is dead, so I doubt that a civil lawsuit is going to bother him much.
 
I doubt his words will expose him to much more liability than his actions did. He's already exposed to a second-degree murder charge and his girlfriend is dead, so I doubt that a civil lawsuit is going to bother him much.
Not to mention he probably has nothing to sue for anyway. Can't squeeze water from a rock.
 
I don't like this law, it blurs the relationship between action and responsibility.

I don't like laws that tack on an "you got unlucky" penalty to the penalty for criminal actions and motives.

If you're using your 9mm to shoot at tin cans in your back yard you might be charged with dischaging a firearm inside city limits (illegal in many places). If you're "unlucky" enough to have one of your ricochets hit your neighbor and kill them you'll likely be charged with manslaughter or worse.

Dischaging a firearm inside city limits might get you a fine (although jail time might be possible).

So, do you think you should just get a fine for killing the neighbor? Or should everyone who discharges a firearm be charged with manslaughter even if no one is hurt?
 
I don't like this law, it blurs the relationship between action and responsibility.

I disagree. I think it makes the relationship clearer. You are responsible for your actions and for their consequences, regardless of whether or not you planned them.

Say Al robs two liquor stores, accompanied first by Bob and then by Carl. The first robbery goes as planned and they run off with the till. In the second robbery, Carl freaks out and shoots the clerk before they run off.

If Al gets caught for the first robbery, he's charged as a robber. If he gets caught for the second robbery, he's charged as a robber and a murderer, even though his actions and motives are exactly the same as the first.

Yes. This will hopefully deter Al (and Al's friends) from taking dangerous and felonious acts that might lead to deaths.
 
Same with rolling a die and immersing them in acid when it comes up '4', but I'd object to that too.

Your rationale is invalid. If I intend to steal a car in a state where I knew that I could get shot, or become liable for my accomplice getting shot, then it is a risk that I must assume. If I were unwilling to assume that risk, then I should not be stealing cars (at least not in that particular state).

It's a "responsibility-for-the-consequences-of-your-own-actions" thing...
 
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I don't like this law, it blurs the relationship between action and responsibility.

Say Al robs two liquor stores, accompanied first by Bob and then by Carl. The first robbery goes as planned and they run off with the till. In the second robbery, Carl freaks out and shoots the clerk before they run off.

If Al gets caught for the first robbery, he's charged as a robber. If he gets caught for the second robbery, he's charged as a robber and a murderer, even though his actions and motives are exactly the same as the first.

I don't like laws that tack on an "you got unlucky" penalty to the penalty for criminal actions and motives.

The idea is simple - if you alone commit a crime, you stand a moderately good chance of being put down - but if you have one or more others, the good guy does - so if the good guy does, law makes you responsible. The legal argument is if you are involved in a crime that ends in murder, the murder might not have happened if you had not been present. It is meant to deter group crimes. With no offense, the only reason I can see for anyone being against that form of law is that they expect themselves or a friend/family member to be involved in one (that is not an accusation, I really cannot conceive in my mind of any other rationale for that view).

Once a group determines to commit a crime which occurs only because they made such decision then it is perfectly logical that all members share equally the punishment for any criminal act occurring during the commission/aftermath of that crime..
 
The idea is simple - if you alone commit a crime, you stand a moderately good chance of being put down - but if you have one or more others, the good guy does - so if the good guy does, law makes you responsible. The legal argument is if you are involved in a crime that ends in murder, the murder might not have happened if you had not been present. It is meant to deter group crimes.

It's broader than that; the doctrine of felony-murder applies to single-person crimes as well. In fact, I think the perp is getting off lucky in at least one respect. Normally a felony-murder is charged as first degree, not second degree.

Again, the object is deterrence. If you know that in committing a robbery, there is a chance that someone might die and you face murder charges, maybe that will discourage you from the robbery in the first place. If it doesn't do that, it will at least encourage you to take precautions so that no one dies during your robbery.
 
Again, the object is deterrence.

Is it working?

The fact that a case exists where the detterent didn't work doesn't bode well.

But then we're in the realms of crowds watching public executions of thieves were being worked by pickpockets and so forth.
 
If you're using your 9mm to shoot at tin cans in your back yard you might be charged with dischaging a firearm inside city limits (illegal in many places). If you're "unlucky" enough to have one of your ricochets hit your neighbor and kill them you'll likely be charged with manslaughter or worse?


An even more common scenario would be DUI. If you drive under the influence and get caught, you'll get charged with the DUI and maybe lose your license (eventually). If you drive under the influence and are unlucky enough to hit and kill someone, you'll probably get hit with vehicular manslaughter or negligent homicide.
 

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