• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

Status
Not open for further replies.
temporalillusion said:
Like Ichneumonwasp said, none of the synoptic gospels (Mark, and Matthew and Luke) claim Jesus to be divine.
Click to expand...

Then why in Mark's gospel on 2 separate occasions does a voice come down from heaven saying this is my beloved Son when Jesus is present? And why in Mark does Jesus predict he will be raised from the dead in 3 days? And why in all the gospels does Jesus say or imply he is the Christ or Messiah?
 
DOC said:
Then why in Mark's gospel on 2 separate occasions does a voice come down from heaven saying this is my beloved Son when Jesus is present? And why in Mark does Jesus predict he will be raised from the dead in 3 days? And why in all the gospels does Jesus say or imply he is the Christ or Messiah?
Click to expand...


What does any of that have to do with divinity? A messiah had a very specific meaning to the Jews, and it was purely an earthly concept. As has already been discussed, "Son of God" had a specific meaning as well. Resurrection is a third term that didn't mean anything to do with divinity, as most Jews expected a bodily resurrection at some distant point in the future. Christians are the ones who twisted these to mean something divine well after the time Jesus was purported to have roamed the earth.
 
DOC said:
Then why in Mark's gospel on 2 separate occasions does a voice come down from heaven saying this is my beloved Son when Jesus is present? And why in Mark does Jesus predict he will be raised from the dead in 3 days? And why in all the gospels does Jesus say or imply he is the Christ or Messiah?
Click to expand...

Here are the verses for the above: Mark 1:11, Mark 9: 31-32, Mark 9:7, Mark 14:61-63, Matthew 26:63-64, Luke 9:20.

After reading all of these verses from the Synoptic Gospels one should not get the impression that Jesus is just a great teacher or prophet as some have said.
 
Last edited:
DOC said:
Then why in Mark's gospel on 2 separate occasions does a voice come down from heaven saying this is my beloved Son when Jesus is present? And why in Mark does Jesus predict he will be raised from the dead in 3 days? And why in all the gospels does Jesus say or imply he is the Christ or Messiah?
Click to expand...

What Hokulele said.

In the synoptic gospels Jesus is the Messiah (Matthew goes out of his way to point out every single prophecy fulfilled, to the point it's clear he's not reporting what happened but actually manufacturing things to fit into prophecy), but he is not God.

John puts this forward, and John is later than the other 3.

EDIT: What we're saying about the gospels and divinity isn't new DOC, this is well established biblical scholarship.
 
Last edited:
DOC said:
Here are the verses for the above: Mark 1:11, Mark 9: 31-32, Mark 9:7, Mark 14:61-63, Matthew 26:63-64, Luke 9:20.

After reading all of these verses from the Synoptic Gospels one should not get the impression that Jesus is just a great teacher or prophet as some have said.
Click to expand...

You mean some like the great man Jefferson?
 
Hokulele said:
Lovely. What does any of that have to do with divinity?
Click to expand...

DOC said:
A lot, read Mark 14: 61-64.
Click to expand...

Hokulele said:
So Moses and Elijah are divine as well?

ETA: Hint, Mark 14 has Jesus calling himself the Son of man.
Click to expand...

Mark 14: 61-64:

But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?

And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man {Jesus referred to himself as the Son of Man more than he referred to himself and the Son of God} sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Then the high priest rent his clothes, and saith, What need we any further witnesses?

Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death.

______

Moses and Elijah never said they were the Christ or they would sit on the right hand of power and come in the clouds of heaven.

ETA: And the above shows that Mark does not just portray Jesus as a prophet.

ETA: And when Jesus uses the term "Son of Man" many scholars believe he is referring to the prophecy in Daniel 7: 13-14.
 
Last edited:
Christ = messiah != divine.

Moses and Elijah never predicted they would sit on the right hand of power, but they are described as doing so.

And I would expand on your insertion into the text of Mark. Jesus never referred to himself as anything but the Son of man in the Synoptic gospels. He certainly never called himself the Son of God.

That was left for John, with all of his Greek Logos philosophy, and Paul.
 
DOC said:
ETA: And the above shows that Mark does not just portray Jesus as a prophet.
Click to expand...

The only two choices aren't prophet and divine.

DOC said:
ETA: And when Jesus uses the term "Son of Man" many scholars believe he is referring to the prophecy in Daniel 7: 13-14.
Click to expand...

Which is a prophecy about what to them? The messiah.

ETA: Daniel 7:9-13

The son of man is brought before the Ancient One and given authority (he didn't have it before that implies).

ETA2: http://books.google.ca/books?id=eId...X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7#PPA143,M1
 
Last edited:
Hokulele said:
And I would expand on your insertion into the text of Mark. Jesus never referred to himself as anything but the Son of man in the Synoptic gospels. He certainly never called himself the Son of God.
Click to expand...

Maybe Jesus didn't (preferring the Daniel prophecy term "Son of Man") but the Synoptic Gospel Luke reports an angel told Mary her child would be called the "Son of God". (Luke Chapter 1 verse 35)
 
DOC said:
Then why in Mark's gospel on 2 separate occasions does a voice come down from heaven saying this is my beloved Son when Jesus is present? And why in Mark does Jesus predict he will be raised from the dead in 3 days? And why in all the gospels does Jesus say or imply he is the Christ or Messiah?
Click to expand...


The Messiah is not divine in Judaism, but human. As someone else has said, does this make Cyrus divine? Does it make Vespasian divine? Does it make Simon bar Kokhba divine?

So, let's look at the rest........son of God means divine? So was David divine? There seem to be a lot of gods running around in this supposed monotheism. We've already been through the son of God bit -- it doesn't mean divinity in Judaism. There is only one God in Judaism.

Now to the resurrection -- are you suggesting that resurrection means divinity? So, everyone who is resurrected in the general resurrection at the end of time is actually a god? There are gods walking around us right now, only they don't know it?

Are you serious?
 
DOC said:
Maybe Jesus didn't (preferring the Daniel prophecy term "Son of Man") but the Synoptic Gospel Luke reports an angel told Mary her child would be called the "Son of God". (Luke Chapter 1 verse 35)
Click to expand...
Son of God =/= Divine.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom