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Are we REALLY killing our planet?

MikeSun5

Trigger Happy Pacifist,
Joined
Apr 18, 2009
Messages
1,871
I'm wondering exactly how much we're really damaging our planet through pollution and waste, as opposed to what the media tells us...

Some of the excitement about global warming has subsided in the wake of scientific proof, and I still haven't seen any pictures of this "Great Pacific Garbage Patch" that's supposedly twice the size of Texas (or twice the size of France, depending on who's reporting). As far as melting ice caps and the like, there have been substantial climate fluctuations in the past -- maybe we're on the upswing of a Dansgaard-Oeschger event or something?

I know full well that humans' habits of resource consumption and trash disposal (or lack thereof) are certainly not helping the situation, but I can't help but wonder how much of that is inflated by the media and others as a scare tactic?
 
A) There is no great pacific garbage patch. Between the salt, the intense UV light, and the wave action hardly any trash that floats can survive more than a few months.

B) That has nothing to do with global warming.

C) No we're not killing the planet.

D) We're killing things on it, like coral through ship explosive fishing for the aquarium trade, silting, and warming. And vast tracts of rain forest in poor countries are gobbled up to feed more industrialized nations' hunger for hardwood.
 
A) There is no great pacific garbage patch. Between the salt, the intense UV light, and the wave action hardly any trash that floats can survive more than a few months.

According to the reports, most of the floating stuff is plastic that can definitely last more than a few months - the "Friendly Floatees" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friendly_Floatees) were in the oceans for over 10 years, despite the salt, sun, and waves. I'm sure there's a lot of garbage in the ocean, just like I'm sure combustion engines don't help the atmosphere. I'm just not sure if it's as much as everyone says it is.
 
Well, with as many species as are threatened, endangered or recently extinct, we are doing damage.

We won't kill the earth though. Make it uninhabitable for modern human society, possibly.
 
Killing the planet isn't the issue. Even under the worst of predictions the planet would survive quite fine with runaway global warming.

We, on the other hand, would be screwed. Modern human societies have a much more tenuous grasp surviving on this planet than life itself does.
 
How to destroy the Earth:

Destroying the Earth is harder than you may have been led to believe.

You've seen the action movies where the bad guy threatens to destroy the Earth. You've heard people on the news claiming that the next nuclear war or cutting down rainforests or persisting in releasing hideous quantities of pollution into the atmosphere threatens to end the world.

Fools.

The Earth is built to last. It is a 4,550,000,000-year-old, 5,973,600,000,000,000,000,000-tonne ball of iron. It has taken more devastating asteroid hits in its lifetime than you've had hot dinners, and lo, it still orbits merrily. So my first piece of advice to you, dear would-be Earth-destroyer, is: do NOT think this will be easy.

This is not a guide for wusses whose aim is merely to wipe out humanity. I (Sam Hughes) can in no way guarantee the complete extinction of the human race via any of these methods, real or imaginary. Humanity is wily and resourceful, and many of the methods outlined below will take many years to even become available, let alone implement, by which time mankind may well have spread to other planets; indeed, other star systems. If total human genocide is your ultimate goal, you are reading the wrong document. There are far more efficient ways of doing this, many which are available and feasible RIGHT NOW. Nor is this a guide for those wanting to annihilate everything from single-celled life upwards, render Earth uninhabitable or simply conquer it. These are trivial goals in comparison.

This is a guide for those who do not want the Earth to be there anymore.
 
Ingredients:

  • 1 pint fresh strawberries, trimmed
  • 1/4 cup sugar
  • 2 teaspoons fresh lemon juice
  • 2 cups ice cubes (about 11)
Preparation:
Put a 9-or-10 inch metal cake pan in the freezer. In a blender blend the strawberries, the sugar, and the lemon juice until the mixture is smooth and the sugar is dissolved. Add the ice cubes, blend the mixture until it is smooth, and pour it into the cold pan. Freeze the mixture for 30 to 40 minutes, or until it is frozen around the edge but still soft in the center, stir the strawberry ice, mashing the frozen parts with a fork, and spoon it into 2 bowls.
 

The rocks last a long time. There have been mass extinctions of species in the past, often involving climate change. We are a species. Even if climate does not wipe out human life as a species, and I doubt that it will, the species of homo sapiens will see mass suffering and death. Other species not so adaptive will be wiped out. In such chaos and destruction, property rights will be infringed. That is what really worries me.
 
I'm wondering exactly how much we're really damaging our planet through pollution and waste, as opposed to what the media tells us...

The trouble is there are many separate issues that tend to get conflated in these sort of discussions. Firstly, we're not damaging the actual planet in the slightest. The Earth is a damn great lump of rock and the worst humans, or any life for that matter, can do barely amounts to messing up its makeup. Even having flying rocks from space smack into it does little more than add the odd dent here and there.

Assuming you actually mean to talk about life on the planet rather than the planet itself, there are still a number of separate issues. Wiping out life itself really isn't an issue. The flying space rocks mentioned above did far better than we could manage, and even they never managed to kill everything. Life is pretty damn resilient.

However, while life in general is fairly tough, specific forms of life may not be. Killing everything may not be feasible, but killing a large proportion of certain kinds of life is. For examople, the K/T impact is famous for wiping out the dinosaurs, but left mammals and birds relatively untouched. Humans have the same sort of effect - we actively promote the welfare of some animals like cows, kittens and the like, we indirectly help others like rats, we purposely wipe others out, like tigers and rhinos, and we accidentally kill others by doing things like cutting down trees. We're not about to wipe the Earth clean of life, but we can do some pretty hefty readjustment of ecosystems. Whether you count that as damage or simply natural evolution is a matter of taste.

In the end, what you need to remember is that we look at things from a human perspective. Humans have evolved under certain conditions. Even more importantly, human civilisation has developed under very specific conditions, and modern civilisation even more so. The fact that climate and ecosystems change naturally is irrelevant, no matter how natural or unnatural it might be, we're not currently capable of dealing with a world with 60m higher sea levels and double the oxygen content in the atmosphere, for example. That may have been great for dinosaurs, but not for us.

The problem with global warming, pollution, fish stocks and what have you is not that the world is going to end, or even that the world is going to end for humans. The problem is that our current civilisation is based on having the sea stay put, having drinkable water in particular places, having food swimming around the place, and so on. If those things change, whether through moving or simply being used up, and whether due to entirely natural causes or through our own faults, we're going to have issues.

And the more people there are, the bigger those problems will be. A 1m change in sea level 2000 years ago may have got a few villages a bit damp. A 1m change in sea level now could mean millions of homes under water, simply because there are millions more homes than there used to be.

As for the specifics of how much we're damaging things compared to what is reported, that depends entirely on what reports you've been reading. Personally, I've never even heard of any "Great Pacific Garbage Patch", and I doubt it exists. On the other hand, holes in the ozone layer certainly do exist, as do things like acid rain and smog. Global warming itself is pretty certain, although the exact effects are still up for debate.
 
The trouble is there are many separate issues that tend to get conflated in these sort of discussions. Firstly, we're not damaging the actual planet in the slightest. The Earth is a damn great lump of rock and the worst humans, or any life for that matter, can do barely amounts to messing up its makeup. Even having flying rocks from space smack into it does little more than add the odd dent here and there.

Assuming you actually mean to talk about life on the planet rather than the planet itself, there are still a number of separate issues. Wiping out life itself really isn't an issue. The flying space rocks mentioned above did far better than we could manage, and even they never managed to kill everything. Life is pretty damn resilient.

However, while life in general is fairly tough, specific forms of life may not be. Killing everything may not be feasible, but killing a large proportion of certain kinds of life is. For examople, the K/T impact is famous for wiping out the dinosaurs, but left mammals and birds relatively untouched. Humans have the same sort of effect - we actively promote the welfare of some animals like cows, kittens and the like, we indirectly help others like rats, we purposely wipe others out, like tigers and rhinos, and we accidentally kill others by doing things like cutting down trees. We're not about to wipe the Earth clean of life, but we can do some pretty hefty readjustment of ecosystems. Whether you count that as damage or simply natural evolution is a matter of taste.

In the end, what you need to remember is that we look at things from a human perspective. Humans have evolved under certain conditions. Even more importantly, human civilisation has developed under very specific conditions, and modern civilisation even more so. The fact that climate and ecosystems change naturally is irrelevant, no matter how natural or unnatural it might be, we're not currently capable of dealing with a world with 60m higher sea levels and double the oxygen content in the atmosphere, for example. That may have been great for dinosaurs, but not for us.

The problem with global warming, pollution, fish stocks and what have you is not that the world is going to end, or even that the world is going to end for humans. The problem is that our current civilisation is based on having the sea stay put, having drinkable water in particular places, having food swimming around the place, and so on. If those things change, whether through moving or simply being used up, and whether due to entirely natural causes or through our own faults, we're going to have issues.

And the more people there are, the bigger those problems will be. A 1m change in sea level 2000 years ago may have got a few villages a bit damp. A 1m change in sea level now could mean millions of homes under water, simply because there are millions more homes than there used to be.

As for the specifics of how much we're damaging things compared to what is reported, that depends entirely on what reports you've been reading. Personally, I've never even heard of any "Great Pacific Garbage Patch", and I doubt it exists. On the other hand, holes in the ozone layer certainly do exist, as do things like acid rain and smog. Global warming itself is pretty certain, although the exact effects are still up for debate.
You made some very good points.

Regarding the news reports on global warming, I think the answer is often relative to the statistics they choose to highlight and what cause is trendy at the time. We're certainly damaging existing ecosystems and we should make efforts to limit our interference as much as possible. If we aren't sure of the extent to which we are at fault however, than it becomes difficult to know how to manage our involvement to protect it.

I'm beginning to sound like a broken record because I have made my opinion known about media hype in several threads, but as many flavors as Ben & Jerry's has ice cream, the media has crises that fade in and out of the limelight.

To a lesser degree, protecting the environment has to do with etiquette. It doesn’t take much to pick up after yourself. I’m at the beach a lot and if I go two consecutive days, I’m likely to see the same trash.

As far as the Great Pacific Garbage Patch, I would think if it were twice the size of Texas or France, more people would have noticed it.
 
Personally, I've never even heard of any "Great Pacific Garbage Patch", and I doubt it exists.

You surely know better than to argue personal incredulity. It is a scientifically established fact. The typical place to start.

As far as the Great Pacific Garbage Patch, I would think if it were twice the size of Texas or France, more people would have noticed it.
You surely know better than to argue group incredulity. See the above link for a start.
 
From what I've read, anoxia in the oceans is in the long run far more devastating than a mere temperature increase. However, since we're getting both of them together, it seems moot to debate which is worse. I guess that's the bright side?
 
I grew up in the 50's here in rural Central Illinois. This place used to be really bad. There was trash on the sides of the roads, junk farms with rusting equipment everywhere. Farm animals and farm chemicals polluting the creeks. Animals like deer, otters, badgers, and birds like Great Blue Herons and many species of ducks and geese were non-existant. Hawks and eagles were extremely rare. Things are far different now. Junk farms are rare. The roadways are clean. Farmers plant trees and cover crops to reduce erosion. Farm chemicals are still a problem but much less now. Deer are everywhere, otters have been re-introduced from stock in Louisana and are doing well. We have ducks, geese, herons, and desirable songbirds that are sensitive to pollution like Bluebirds and Purple Martens. They're all back in numbers I never saw in the 50's and 60's. We now have so many hawks it has changed the habits of gamebirds like pheasants. We have cleaned up our mess here and I'm optimistic at the local level.
 
From what I've read, anoxia in the oceans is in the long run far more devastating than a mere temperature increase. However, since we're getting both of them together, it seems moot to debate which is worse. I guess that's the bright side?

Anoxic oceans were a big component of the P-T extinction so that is something to worry about......if you're a large complex organism. How sure are we that AGW will induce anoxia? Was anoxia induced during the formation of the CAMP(Central Atlantic Magmatic Province)?
 
I agree that we're not going to kill the planet per se, but we're definitely damaging way more than we have to. My problem with the situation is that media outlets seem to claim that without our immediate and direct assistance, the world will be destroyed within our lifetime. Satellite images of hurricanes are cut to from clips of jammed LA freeways, and then you're offered some "green" product that will save the planet. I want to know, says who?

The problem ... is not that the world is going to end, or even that the world is going to end for humans. The problem is that our current civilisation is based on having the sea stay put, having drinkable water in particular places, having food swimming around the place, and so on. If those things change, whether through moving or simply being used up, and whether due to entirely natural causes or through our own faults, we're going to have issues.

That's a good point as well. We're so dependent on the way things are, that changing it would create "issues." Conversely, changing the way humans live is the only way to conserve these ecosystems we're damaging and species we're killing off. So it's a dilemma.
This sort of concern also seems to be limited to rich countries. I don't think a fisherman in Bangledesh trying to feed his family gives a crap about tossing trash into the sea, but Americans are freaking out.
 
Anoxic oceans were a big component of the P-T extinction so that is something to worry about......if you're a large complex organism. How sure are we that AGW will induce anoxia? Was anoxia induced during the formation of the CAMP(Central Atlantic Magmatic Province)?

I understood we're observing anoxic zones growing now, so it's not a purely theoretical concern.
 
I understood we're observing anoxic zones growing now, so it's not a purely theoretical concern.

Aren't anoxic zones limited to coastal waters? Do they affect the ocean at large?

(I'm sure I could look those answers up, I just choose not to.:D)
 

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