Why a one-way Crush down is not possible

[KreeL]

Does it rule out thermite in the core? That would depend on the evidence. In the NIST analysis, they state the core pieces they tested didn't get over 250C. Logically, you could ask whether they tested ALL the core, some of the core, selective pieces, or whatever you read into that.

Do you believe NIST on their analysis?

 

[leftysergeant]

Since this seems to be the crux of your rebuttal, can you show us how you arrived at that conclusion?

All the burn victims were in or near elevator shafts. Schroeder saw an explosion occur in an elevator shaft as he was entering the building AFTER the impact.

There were shafts connecting all the way to the top. Over-pressurize a floor or three with jet fuel and I guarantee some of it will go down those shafts.

Willie heard two explosions and assumes they were pre-impact. Schroeder fixes at least one of them post-impact.

Thus, if Willie did hear the impact, the first event had to be the impact.

More likely, he did not hear the impact, but rather just the explosions of jet fuel in the shafts and their immediate surroundings.

 

[tsig]

Really.


Yep. Can you think of any reason how jet fuel could survive the firerball without burning: Hint: what does jet fuel require to burn?


Yes, jet fuel tends to flow down hill in our world. Don't know about the alternate universe truthers live in.


No, the explosion didn't happen before the plane impact. That's just silly.


No, that is the lie "truthers" tell to perpetuate their fantasy.

When you have to explain that liquids follow gravity it looks hopeless.

 

[WildCat]

Does it rule out thermite in the core? That would depend on the evidence. In the NIST analysis, they state the core pieces they tested didn't get over 250C. Logically, you could ask whether they tested ALL the core, some of the core, selective pieces, or whatever you read into that.

Ah, so you ARE open to ther possibility that NIST didn't actually test every single core column? Do you know why they tested the ones they did?

Do you believe NIST on their analysis?

Yes, absolutely. And unlike you, I know what they actually did and why. Would you care to guess, or better yet actually read the NIST report?

eta: And does NIST claim the core columns failed?

 

[tsig]

Since this seems to be the crux of your rebuttal, can you show us how you arrived at that conclusion?

Take an open container and fill it with gas. Light and pour. See results.

 

[KreeL]

All the burn victims were in or near elevator shafts. Schroeder saw an explosion occur in an elevator shaft as he was entering the building AFTER the impact.

There were shafts connecting all the way to the top. Over-pressurize a floor or three with jet fuel and I guarantee some of it will go down those shafts.

Willie heard two explosions and assumes they were pre-impact. Schroeder fixes at least one of them post-impact.

Thus, if Willie did hear the impact, the first event had to be the impact.

More likely, he did not hear the impact, but rather just the explosions of jet fuel in the shafts and their immediate surroundings.

So Schroeder witnessed an explosion when he arrived a good 5-10 minutes after impact. I thought you were an explosion denier? When Naudet arrived his camera captured no evidence of fire or smoke in the lobby.

Why would the first event Rodriguez witnessed HAVE to be the impact?

So the elevator shafts travel from the top all the way to the sublevel? Burning jet fuel traveled nearly a quarter mile through two fire floors, over and around the elevators, and exploded with enough force in the basement to cause all the damage witnessed by those in the sublevels?

 

[tsig]

Does it rule out thermite in the core? That would depend on the evidence. In the NIST analysis, they state the core pieces they tested didn't get over 250C. Logically, you could ask whether they tested ALL the core, some of the core, selective pieces, or whatever you read into that.

Do you believe NIST on their analysis?

Never read NIST never plan to.

I base my analysis on what I saw that day and the knowledge gained thru practical experience and college courses in structural analysis.

The energy to destroy the buildings was every piece lifted into place during construction.

 

[FineWine]

Since this seems to be the crux of your rebuttal, can you show us how you arrived at that conclusion?

I read it. Can you show us how you arrived at your conclusion that a random explosion was somehow connected with the collapse of the building an hour later?

 

[KreeL]

Random explosion? Were all the explosions witnessed simply random? How do you conclude that?

 

[KreeL]

There were shafts connecting all the way to the top. Over-pressurize a floor or three with jet fuel and I guarantee some of it will go down those shafts.

QUOTE

There were 99 passenger elevators in each tower, arranged in three vertical zones to move occupants in stages to skylobbies on the 44th and 78th floors. These were arranged as express (generally larger cars that moved at higher speeds) and local elevators in an innovative system first introduced in WTC 1 and WTC 2. There were 8 express elevators from the concourse to the 44th floor and 10 express elevators from the concourse to the 78th floor as well as 24 local elevators per zone, which served groups of floors in those zones. There were seven freight elevators, only one of which served all floors. All elevators had been upgraded to incorporate firefighter emergency operation per American Society of Mechanical Engineers (ASME) A17.1 and Local Law 5 (1973)(NIST NCSTAR 1-1, p.50 - PDF)

 

[WildCat]

QUOTE

There were 99 passenger elevators in each tower, arranged in three vertical zones to move occupants in stages to skylobbies on the 44th and 78th floors. These were arranged as express (generally larger cars that moved at higher speeds) and local elevators in an innovative system first introduced in WTC 1 and WTC 2. There were 8 express elevators from the concourse to the 44th floor and 10 express elevators from the concourse to the 78th floor as well as 24 local elevators per zone, which served groups of floors in those zones. There were seven freight elevators, only one of which served all floors. All elevators had been upgraded to incorporate firefighter emergency operation per American Society of Mechanical Engineers (ASME) A17.1 and Local Law 5 (1973)(NIST NCSTAR 1-1, p.50 - PDF)

And did any elevators share the same shaft KreeL?

 

[phunk]

There were seven freight elevators, only one of which served all floors.

Do you think the freight elevators that served the upper floors didn't go all the way down to the basement?

 

[KreeL]

What destroyed the WTC1 lobby? When Naudet arrived within minutes with his camera it recorded destruction in the lobby. A fireball? through the closed elevator doors? He pans over to the elevators and there isn't any fireball evidence at all. A first responder compared the lobby damage to the sublevel explosion back in '93. 20 eyewitnesses describe an explosion in the sublevels to the 911 Commission, yet all their testimony doesn't make the book.

So what was the purpose of the explosion in the sublevel?

 

[Dog Town]

So the elevator shafts travel from the top all the way to the sublevel? Burning jet fuel traveled nearly a quarter mile through two fire floors, over and around the elevators, and exploded with enough force in the basement to cause all the damage witnessed by those in the sublevels?

Probably, with an assist from a falling elevator car!

For an elevator’s cables to be cut and result in dropping the car to the bottom of the shaft, the cables would need to have been in the aircraft impact debris path, floors 93 through 98 in WTC 1 or floors 78 through 83 in WTC 2. Inspection of the elevator riser diagram and architectural floor plans for WTC 1 shows that the following elevators met these criteria: cars 81 through 86 (Bank B) and 87 through 92 (Bank C), local cars in Zone III; car 50, the freight elevator, and car 6, the Zone III shuttle. … Cars 6 and 50 could have fallen all the way to the pit in the sub-basement level, and car 50 in WTC 1 was reported to have done so. http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1-7.pdf(PDF pg. 160)

http://911stories.googlepages.com/wtcelevatorshafts

 

[tfk]

Steve,

Let me get this straight..."jet fuel explosion in the basement"?

Really?

So when the plane crashed into the 93rd floor the jet fuel survived that big fireball, then it managed to find it's way all the way down into the basement through 93+ floors AND travel backwards in time while it's at it (because the explosions in the basement were heard before the plane impact) and then somehow ignited when it reached the basement?

Is that it? And no this is not an exaggeration of what you are saying, because this is what had to have happened for a "jet fuel explosion in the basement"

.
There were numerous accounts of the strong odor of jet fuel in the lobby. And of one elevator door being "blown out".

Clearly these fumes were not there prior to the impact. Otherwise, there would have been numerous calls to maintenance and the fire department reporting the smell of "gasoline or something like that" by those who don't know the smell of jet fuel.

If it made it to the Lobby as is well-documented, the fuel has made it AT LEAST 75/80ths of the way to the sub-basement. In concentrations high enough to still be explosive to something as sturdy as an elevator door.

I admit that it is surprising to me that this happened too. I long ago reached the point of realizing that the problem is not that the fuel reached the lobby. The problem is that I never ran into a situation that gave me the ability to accurately judge the probability for this sequence of events.

Being a very strong believer in "cause & effect", I see a plane crash into a building, and hear that - moments later - doors are blown off in the lobby & lots of people smell jet fuel, I tend to connect the two events.

And say to myself, "Tom, unexpected things happen."

That's just me...

tom

 

[WildCat]

What destroyed the WTC1 lobby? When Naudet arrived within minutes with his camera it recorded destruction in the lobby. A fireball? through the closed elevator doors? He pans over to the elevators and there isn't any fireball evidence at all. A first responder compared the lobby damage to the sublevel explosion back in '93. 20 eyewitnesses describe an explosion in the sublevels to the 911 Commission, yet all their testimony doesn't make the book.

Yes, a fireball through the elevator doors. Caused by jet fuel, the smell of which was overpowering. You do know that many people reportred smelling the fuel don't you?

So what was the purpose of the explosion in the sublevel?

It had no purpose. It was a by-product of airplanes loaded with fuel flying into the building.

Have you figured out the elevator shaft dynamics yet?

 

[KreeL]

So how did it 'get there' before the plane impact above?

 

[WildCat]

So how did it 'get there' before the plane impact above?

It didn't.

 

[KreeL]

Yes, a fireball through the elevator doors. Caused by jet fuel, the smell of which was overpowering. You do know that many people reportred smelling the fuel don't you?


It had no purpose. It was a by-product of airplanes loaded with fuel flying into the building.

Have you figured out the elevator shaft dynamics yet?

http://science.howstuffworks.com/question730.htm

I guess you don't understand elevators.

 

[Dog Town]

So how did it 'get there' before the plane impact above?

This would be better and on topic, in this thread.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92099&highlight=elevators