Deeper than primes

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This is exactly the difference between fusion and collection in terms of ontology.

A collection exists independently of its content.

This is not the case about a fusion.

Well clearly you missed or misconstrued the point both a collection and fusion depend on their content, change that content and you have a different collection or fusion. You seem to be misinterpreting the fact that there can be an empty collection and no empty fusion as an indication that fusion depends on its content while collection does not. In fact a fusion is just a particular form of collection, one in which the members of that collection are fused together to form something other then just that basic collection. In a collection without members there is just simply noting to fuse and thus fusion is impossible in that case. It is all trivially simple and I am afraid that this is just another example of you making mountains out of mole hills or blowing some small difference or dependence so way out of proportion that you think you need to redefine everything to explain it to yourself.
 
Well clearly you missed or misconstrued the point both a collection and fusion depend on their content, change that content and you have a different collection or fusion.
You seem to be misinterpreting the fact that there can be an empty collection and no empty fusion as an indication that fusion depends on its content while collection does not.

Yes, the existence of a fusion depends on its content. This is not the case about a collection.

I am not talking about the differences of an existing fusion or collection.

I am talking about the "to be or not to be" difference.

An empty collection exist on its own.

An empty fusion does not exist on its own.
In fact a fusion is just a particular form of collection, one in which the members of that collection are fused together to form something other then just that basic collection.
Please demonstrate this fact.
 
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[ QUOTE=doronshadmi;4658888]Let us summarize it:

The Ontology of Fusions and Collections


By using an ontological viewpoint of the foundations of the mathematical science we distinguish between fusions and collections. Let us quote from Michael D. Potter's book "Set theory and its philosophy" page 21:

"But the standard cases have a tendency to obscure the distinction between two quite different ways in which it has been taken that things can be aggregated – collection and fusion. Both are formed by bundling objects together, but a fusion is no more than the sum of its parts, whereas a collection is something more."

This "something more" is exactly the ability of a collection to be available (to exist) as a measurement tool that is independent of the researched (whether it is a collection –empty or not– or a fusion –empty or not–), which is an ability of existence that a fusion does not have. An empty collection is an available measurement tool that measures nothing, For example |{}|=0. This is not the case with a fusion because an empty fusion is nothing (the measurement tool and the measured are the same, and the measurement is impossible since we have lost our measurement tool). Here is another quote from Michael D. Potter's book "Set theory and its philosophy" page 22:

"And what if we try to make something out of nothing? A container with nothing in it is still a container, and the empty collection is correspondingly a collection with no members. But a fusion of nothing is an impossibility: if we try to form a fusion when there is nothing to fuse, we obtain not a trivial object but no object at all."

By using a collection as a measurement tool "a fusion of nothing" is researchable (as shown in the case of the empty set). There are 3 levels of existence that are researchable under the collection's framework, which are: Emptiness, Intermediate, Fullness. Since a collection is a level 2 (Intermediate) thing, then:

1) It is above the level of Emptiness ( for example: {} )

2) It is at the level of collection ( for example: {a,b,c,...} )

3) It is below the level of Fullness ( for example: {_}_ )


Some claims "there is nothing below collection". He is right because "there is nothing" is Emptiness. By following the same ontological notion, we get the opposite of Emptiness, called Fullness. Some claims "there is nothing above collection". This claim is ontologically wrong because "nothing" is below collection. Some claims "there is everything above collection". This is ontologically wrong because "everything" is at the level of collection. Some claims "there is Fullness above collection". In this case he is ontologically right. It must be noticed that the measurement tool is excluded from the measurement's results, for example: |{}|=0 and not 1, |{a,b,c}|=3 and not 4, etc.[/QUOTE]

Doron, you continue to burry yourself with your quote mining, read and understand your own reference

But a fusion of nothing is an impossibility: if we try to form a fusion when there is nothing to fuse, we obtain not a trivial object but no object at all

Now let’s see what you say about an ‘empty fusion’

By using a collection as a measurement tool "a fusion of nothing" is researchable (as shown in the case of the empty set).

So again you are claiming to research what your own reference tells you is impossible (you empty ‘fusion’). You try to scurry around this dilemma by claiming you are using “collection as a measurement tool”, but all you ever measure are those collections. Again it is just your usual malarkey of trying to introduce some independent sub element (particularly into a set that has no elements) that you claim to be non-researchable as being independent and your own reference tells you that it is an impossibility as your ‘empty fusion’. You read too much into and too little of the reference you cite.
 
So, instead of this load of bovine manure, do we at all get some axioms how your fusions work?

It is pre-axiomatic. Again we are talking about the philosophy of the foundations of the mathematical science.
 
So again you are claiming to research what your own reference tells you is impossible (you empty ‘fusion’). You try to scurry around this dilemma by claiming you are using “collection as a measurement tool”, but all you ever measure are those collections. Again it is just your usual malarkey of trying to introduce some independent sub element (particularly into a set that has no elements) that you claim to be non-researchable as being independent and your own reference tells you that it is an impossibility as your ‘empty fusion’. You read too much into and too little of the reference you cite.

This is exactly what is: a fusion of nothing.

It is impossible on its own because we have nothing to deal with.

This is not the under a collection, for example:

The magnitude of existence of the fusion of nothing is |{}| = 0, where the collection is the existing measurement tool.

You still do not get the ontological difference between collection and fusion, and the influance of this ontological difference on the understanding of the non-finite.

In other words, you think only in terms of collection.

The Man said:
but all you ever measure are those collections.
Really?

Please show us the measured collections of {} (do not forgget {} is only the measurment tool).
 
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Yes, the existence of a fusion depends on its content. This is not the case about a collection.

I am not talking about the differences of an existing fusion or collection.

I am talking about the "to be or not to be" difference.

An empty collection exist on its own.

An empty fusion does not exist on its own.

An empty fusion does not exist at all, try reading your own reference or at the very least the parts you have quoted here. An empty set has no content and that includes your ‘empty fusion’ that your own reference tells you is “an impossibility”. Trying to ascribe it to a set that is empty does not make it and less of impossibility.



Please demonstrate this fact.

Well beside the language demonstration given before, a fusion requires elements to be fused which, even in the absence of fusion, would still be a collection of those elements, again all very simple and trivial.

The point you seem to be missing is that a fusion requires a collection with at least one member and any empty set or collection is not a measurement of an ‘empty fusion’ that can not exist. By your logic an empty set is a ‘measurement’ of everything that can not exist, which would make that empty set rather crowded and your ascription of that measurement to just one non-existent thing (your ‘empty fusion’) irrelevant.
 
The Man said:
Again it is just your usual malarkey of trying to introduce some independent sub element

You did not get it.

A collection is an independent measurement tool and it does not measure its own existence in addition to its content.

This is not the case about a fusion. If it used as a measurement tool than it measure itself where nothing is excluded.

This is exactly the reason why a fusion cannot be used as an independent measurement tool.
 
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An empty fusion does not exist at all
Exactly.

That's is why it can be measured only under the existing measument tool, called collection.

You still foce the notion of collection on fusion.

An empty set has no content and that includes your ‘empty fusion’ that your own reference tells you is “an impossibility”.
It is an impossibility on its own.

It is reseachable under a collection, for example: |{}|=0 where 0 is the magnitude of existence
of the empty-fusion="no members"=Emptiness=nothing.
 
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This is exactly what is: a fusion of nothing.

“What it is”? So it exists as nothing because it does not exist? Doron you just get more contradictory every day

It is impossible on its own because we have nothing to deal with.
No Doron just impossible

This is not the under a collection, for example:

The magnitude of existence of the fusion of nothing is |{}| = 0, where the collection is the existing measurement tool.

Oh so now you are measuring something that is not ‘under’ your ‘measurement tool’

You still do not get the ontological difference between collection and fusion, and the influance of this ontological difference on the understanding of the non-finite.

You are looking too much for that ‘ontological difference’ and ignoring the actual similarities and dependence.


In other words, you think only in terms of collection.

More labling people with words you clearly do not understand

Really?

Please show us the measured collections of {} (do not forgget {} is only the measurment tool).

There can be no ‘collections’ of “{ }” because it is ‘the’ empty set and not a ‘measurement tool’.
 
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Exactly.

That's is why it can be measured only under the existing measument tool, called collection.

You still foce the notion of collection on fusion.


It is an impossibility on its own.

It is reseachable under a collection, for example: |{}|=0 where 0 is the magnitude of existence the the empty fusion.


So you just force the notion of existence and measurement onto what you specifically claim does not exist at all.
 
So you just force the notion of existence and measurement onto what you specifically claim does not exist at all.

No.

The collection as a measurment tool exists.

The measured fusion is Emptiness; therefore the magnitude of its existence is 0.
 
The Man said:
Oh so now you are measuring something that is not ‘under’ your ‘measurement tool’

Not at all.

"{" and "}" is the representation of the existing measurement tool, known by the name "Set".

So the empty fusion is measured by a set and the result is: |{}|=0

So we have an existing measurement tool that measures exactly nothing, where nothing=empty fusion.
 
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There can be no ‘collections’ of “{ }” because it is ‘the’ empty set and not a ‘measurement tool’.


This relates to a point I was intending to (re-)make. Doron is spellbound by anthropomorphism. Sets can't simply have cardinality as a property; instead, it must be measured (by whom or what isn't yet clear) and for there to be a measurement, there must be a measurement tool. There is also a temporal component to his mis-comprehension, so things like the Empty Set in axiomatic set theory can exist before there's an axiom to establish their existence.

All of this is nonsense, and the only purpose it serves is to further muddle Doron's thinking.

Doron, sets are not measurement tools, cardinality does not require measurement, and despite all your hand-waving and word salad, your so-called magnitude of existence is nothing more than cardinality plus one. That means it is contrived and trivial, and no where near ontological.

You are lying to yourself if you think otherwise.

By the way, how's that explanation of what you mean by "distinction is a first-order property" coming along?
 
This relates to a point I was intending to (re-)make. Doron is spellbound by anthropomorphism. Sets can't simply have cardinality as a property; instead, it must be measured (by whom or what isn't yet clear) and for there to be a measurement, there must be a measurement tool. There is also a temporal component to his mis-comprehension, so things like the Empty Set in axiomatic set theory can exist before there's an axiom to establish their existence.

All of this is nonsense, and the only purpose it serves is to further muddle Doron's thinking.

Doron, sets are not measurement tools, cardinality does not require measurement, and despite all your hand-waving and word salad, your so-called magnitude of existence is nothing more than cardinality plus one. That means it is contrived and trivial, and no where near ontological.

You are lying to yourself if you think otherwise.

By the way, how's that explanation of what you mean by "distinction is a first-order property" coming along?



You dont like the name measument tool, no problem:

The cardinal of a set is determined by the magnitude of existence of its members.


The rest of your post is a mambo jambo nonsense.

Furthermore, you can't get the notion of fullness because your reasoning is closed under to concept of collection.


If this is all your abstract ability can get, then this is not of my concern, I do not care about your limitations.


The fact is this: we have an existing {} that its cardinal is 0.

An existing thing cannot have cardinal 0, if cardinal is the magnitude of existence, and from the ontological point of view we first of all care about the existence (or non-existence) of things.
 
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It is pre-axiomatic. Again we are talking about the philosophy of the foundations of the mathematical science.
This is just a lame excuse. Deep in your heart you know that when it comes to formulae, the vacuousness of all your words will be exposed as clear as can be.

This is exactly what is: a fusion of nothing.
You should read more carefully your new hero Potter:
Potter said:
But a fusion of nothing is an impossibility:
 
Nope, you are wrong. Try again, please.

I try again:

Furthermore, you can't get the notion of fullness because your reasoning is closed under to concept of collection.


If this is all your abstract ability can get, then this is not of my concern, I do not care about your limitations.


The fact is this: we have an existing {} that its cardinal is 0.

An existing thing cannot have cardinal 0, if cardinal is the magnitude of existence, and from the ontological point of view we first of all care about the existence (or non-existence) of things.
 
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