Merged Thread to Discuss The Excellent Analysis of Jones latest paper

While I regret that many of Dr. Greening's criticisms and helpful suggestions are not better received, I have been cc'd on some of the emails, and I understand that some of the scientists are a bit peeved over past events. It doesn't help that some of them conflate Dr. Greening with JREF - even if they're aware of a 'split', let's call it. I certainly am sympathetic to some of their frustrations, not least of which is, having to work pro bono, they cannot devote the time and resources following every suggested method that has been put to them.

I suggest you suppress your tendency to always make 911 Truth sympathizers look bad, at least in this case, as you are not privy to these emails. And no, I'm not going to ask for permission to print them on a public forum.

If you're honest, you must admit that they have put their careers and reputations on the line. The tone of some of those emails make it obvious that they are quite confident of what they have found. However, it remains to be seen what the scientific community makes of their claims, and what their own future research will show. E.g., Professor Jones was quite enthused about a reference I gave him for a technique which is cheap and "quasi" non-destructive, that should be able to identify the chips as paint or some sort of coating, if they are indeed, such. As Professor Jones has already given me permission to publish his emails, I will quote his reply:



This was in reply to my email:



Besides the fact that my suggestion had the nice benefit of likely being affordable, I put it politely. This is not to say that serious suggestions and criticisms should be ignored if they're rudely put, just that these particular scientists are not as closed off to criticisms and suggestions as you might think they are.

Finally, I got a reply from one of the scientists (not Jones) who had wanted to use a technique closely related to LIBS, and had suggested so much twice, but was waiting for a "60 hour day" to do it (presumably on his own).

You'll forgive us for not feeling particularly sorry for the authors for not having done proper tests, employed proper scientific reasoning nor methods before they published this paper in a publication that does not have proper standards for peer review.

The "scientists" have had enough time to post on 911 Blogger, issue press releases, sit for an interview on Danish TV, make plans for their trip to Australia, etc, but now they can't find enough time to do what they should have done in the first place?

Further, if they can't handle JREF's criticism, they might has well hang up their “lab” coats.
 
Now, here I'm confused. Even given the correct, wikipedia definition of energy density, the Francis Andrew thesis shows a AlFe2O3 energy density of 4,000 cal/ gram (in Figure 1).

I googled "heat of reaction" and thermite, and came up with this.

Fe2O3+ 2 Al -> Al2O3+ 2 Fe Dh = -3.98 kJ/gram.

OK, now I'm officially, really confused.
 
I googled "heat of reaction" and thermite, and came up with this.

Fe2O3+ 2 Al -> Al2O3+ 2 Fe Dh = -3.98 kJ/gram.

OK, now I'm officially, really confused.

This agrees with Wikipedia and with Grainier's dissertation. I'm guessing Francis said calories but meant joules; I'd be surprised, in this century, to see a scientific publication that didn't use SI units.

And that brings us back to Steven Jones's 200% efficient thermite.

Dave
 
With 16 KJ/g energy density (I still have to force myself to use the phrase correctly :) ), it's simply not true that chips which weigh in at 8 KJ/g have " nearly twice the energy density of pure thermite." Rather, their effective energy yield is about half of thermite's energy density.
One of the other problems I have with the DSC experiment is that Jones et Al don't talk very much about the "gray layer", all of the theories of thermite are concerning the "red layer" only. Yet this red layer wasn't separated (and I don't blame them! How would you do that? Lots of patience required) for the DSC test. That means that the "gray layer" would have formed part of the weight and therefore affect the calculation.

If we make the assumption that the red layer weighs the same as the "gray layer" and that a reaction only occurs in the red layer then how does that affect the calculation. i.e. the sample weighs half as much. Does that double the energy/g?
 
I googled "heat of reaction" and thermite, and came up with this.

Fe2O3+ 2 Al -> Al2O3+ 2 Fe Dh = -3.98 kJ/gram.

OK, now I'm officially, really confused.

The way Jones writes the reaction, the heat released is 853 KJ/mol

Now, 1 mol of Fe2O3 +2 moles of Al are 214 grams thermite. 853/214=3.98 KJ/g, which is the value you have there. I'd say the 4 Kcal/g should be 4 KJ/g. Mistaken units.

Hope it helps.
 
Clearly, the chips in Jones, et. al., if they are thermites, at all, are not composed of spherical nano-particles of Al, which is the only sort of Al particles hitherto known to myself (and, I suspect, to the scientists working on nano aluminothermics, in general). It's certainly the type of Al particles studies by Grainier.
Yep all the nano-aluminium particles I've ever seen from manufacturers are all spheres. What bothers me is this (I've edited it to only show one spectrum)

picture.php


Why the Silicon and any other element (except O)? Engineered aluminium nanoparticles are 99% pure (commercial pure) so why do we have all the junk in it? Secondly that EDS and the SEM photos clearly show that the platelets are comprised of an aluminosilicate. Can't be anything else. They try to get around this by soaking a completely different sample in MEK and say they found "elemental Al" but they don't show any detailed SEM images of the red layer for that chip. So where are the Al particles? They just aren't there. Their own data shows that.
 
This agrees with Wikipedia and with Grainier's dissertation. I'm guessing Francis said calories but meant joules; I'd be surprised, in this century, to see a scientific publication that didn't use SI units.

And that brings us back to Steven Jones's 200% efficient thermite.

Dave

Can someone remind me if there is any difference in energy density between 'regular' thermite and nanothermite?
I recall a discussion but must've skimmed it.

thx
 
This agrees with Wikipedia and with Grainier's dissertation. I'm guessing Francis said calories but meant joules; I'd be surprised, in this century, to see a scientific publication that didn't use SI units.

And that brings us back to Steven Jones's 200% efficient thermite.

Dave

There is no rule of nature or God that demands that nanothermites be manufactured in stoichiometric proportions, especially if they're going to be burnt in air. See my post here, where I estimate (using some risky assumptions, to be sure; I'm not in the mood to pay for full access to a journal article) that a viable Al nanopowder in air can be ignited which has double the effective energy density of a stoichiometrically correct version.
 
I have no idea about control of oxide shell formation temperature in any grinding process, but I have a hard time believing that you could control shell strength via any grinding (and filtering, if necessary) process, whatsoever. I also have a hard time believing that you could effectively or at least efficiently control relative particle size and relative particle size distribution in a grinding process (and filtering, if necessary).

From the Grainier thesis:

Nano-scale aluminum is pyrophoric in air and must be stabilized for handling. An oxide passivation layer is ‘grown’ around the core aluminum particles by controlling the pressure, temperature, oxygen concentration and exposure time to achieve a uniform and precisely controlled oxide layer. This shell provides an air stable nano-aluminum particle.
 
Has there been any word on Jones' submissions of this paper to other journals, namely non "pay to publish" journals?

TAM:)
 
I'm going to add a couple of things which cropped up - notably Bofors linking to the http://wtc.nist.gov/media/AppendixC-fema403_apc.pdf and the subsequent EDS spectra, because I find it interesting and it's a source of data that I previously hadn't had time to compare, bearing in mind I've set out my stall and don't think that there is anything more to say until further data is provided by Jones et al that shows that the platelet particles aren't Kaolinite or show that the MEK chip's red layer doesn't contain talc or zinc chromate, but anyway this post will simply strengthen my argument.

Lets look at the the data in the link above anyway. We can clearly see material of approximately 3mm in thickness in Fig C-3 of the mounted and polished specimen and we can also clearly see a reduction in thickness of this material to approximately half (1-1.5mm). We know that a 10-20µm layer of thermite can't do that which has already been shown by Dr Greening, but lets press on.

The proposal is that a thermite material has caused this to happen.

So lets examine the EDS spectra of the surface of this steel bearing in mind the material in the thermite is Al and Fe203 that undergoes a redox reaction to produce liquid Fe and Al2O3.

The first thing we notice with regard to the spectra is the lack of Al present. We should expect to see Aluminium present even in small quantities as a by-product of the thermite reaction (in the form Al2O3). This is not the case. Where is this alumina? It's not there. Why not? (click the above link and look at the EDS spectra and show me Al).

Secondly when we examine Fig C-8 we clearly see EDS spectra for FeO and FeS. If thermite were responsible for this then we would expect to see a significant Sulphur peak in the EDS spectra from the red layer in Jones' samples a,b,c,d.

Where's the Sulphur?

picture.php


We see a small peak in sample c) but this can be explained by other means and Jones et al only mention sulfur (sulphur) twice in the document and specifically say that

Fig. (14), produced the expected peaks for Fe, Si, Al, O, and C. Other peaks included calcium, sulfur, zinc, chromium and potassium. The occurrence of these elements could be attributed to surface contamination due to the fact that the analysis was performed on the as-collected surface of the red layer. The large Ca and S peaks may be due to contamination with gypsum from the pulverized wallboard material in the buildings.
Which is a different material to the red layer in samples a,b,c,d.

Their own words dismiss Sulphur as a contaminant yet many truthers will say that the presence of Sulphur in thermite is to lower the melting point of steel. If that were the case (which is preposterous) then why do we see so little Sulphur in the red layer? Why, when Sulphur is detected, is it dismissed as a contaminant? You can't have your cake and eat it - This conundrum needs answering by truthers for it is a legitimate question.

So lets look at the EDS spectra. Firstly I'll provide the spectra for the oxide layer that has formed on the samples in the above link Fig C-13 - locations 2 & 3, which we know were subjected to temperature in excess of the eutectic for FeS or Fe-O-S namely approximately 940°C and then compare with the gray layer of samples a-d), hence;

picture.php


They are very similar in characteristic, shape aswell as elements identified. I've only roughly matched the x-axis scale but the correlation of shape is strikingly similar.

Firstly we must deal with the Carbon peak and the difference between the two spectra. In the first graph we see little to no Carbon and in the subsequent graphs a-d) we see a significant peak. This is easily explainable and any metallurgist will know why, (but can people resist the temptation to press the spoiler button and think why? - hint: read the above link)
In the FEMA sample we know that the steel material has been subjected to high temperature and exposure to air. This causes decarburization of the steel's surface, hence the lack of a C peak in the EDS spectrum for the subsequent oxide - anyone who doubts this just has to google decarburization to find out or read the above link


So what does that tell us? Well for starters, the gray material in Jones' samples, when analysed, had not been subjected to the same high temperatures as seen in http://wtc.nist.gov/media/AppendixC-fema403_apc.pdf and that is why there is a different level of Oxygen in the spectra, but they are clearly from a similar source, namely a steel substrate and not only that, but a substrate that looks like A36 steel due to the Mn peak at @ 5.9KeV.

Jones et al do not comment in any depth with regard to the "gray layer", their paper pretty much ignores it, yet this layer is supposedly a constituent in their thermite hypothesis. This "gray layer", as the data provided by Jones et al, not only shows that this is not a constituent of thermite, but also provides a strikingly good match for iron oxide from a A36 steel that has not been subjected to temperatures above @ 430°C (and 650°C if my memory serves me with regard to the temperature at which steels decarburize).

Why have Jones et al not looked into this "gray layer" as they call it, which is characteristically distinct from the red layer and shows high similarity to an oxide layer of (a known) steel, which has been shown by comparison between their own XEDS and spectra from FEMA.

This additional analysis shows that Jones et al have never considered the "gray layer" as being part of a steel substrate. They claim the chips are thermite, yet have not been thorough enough to analyse the "gray layer" of their chips and either hypothesise nor determine their origin.

Another mark against them.
 
Is anyone actually reading this thread? Why so few comments? Why do people who support the paper we are discussing not post here? The original ran for 40+ pages yet this one can't manage 3. Is no-one posting or are the mods having their work cut out and refusing to allow peoples posts?

This is the thread that people should be posting on with regard to this topic and it's going to be allowed to die yet others will grow. What's the point?
 
Notice, also, that this dramatic drop of DSC peak temperature with decreasing particle size puts to bed the egregiously wrong notion that there's nothing special about nano-scale properties, which some people were proclaiming in the first JREF thread on this subject.

I feel the need to respond to this. We are still correct. This is why: You are stating that the fact that a tinier particle leading to more complete reaction is the "special property" we were addressing in other threads. No, it is not. The "special property" was that ultrarefinement of the thermite particles would lead directly to the heat measurements the paper's authors observed, which were in excess of the enthalpy of reaction for thermite.

The clear insinuation on the authors' part was that the heat observed and noted in the paper was from a thermite reaction. To be blunt, the authors did little to correct that misapprehension. Yes, they left themselves an "out" in the form of the statement conceding "excess" heat could be from organic combustion, but that doesn't matter. They never separate out that contributor. On top of that, they continued to juxtapose the heat release with other thermite properties. What they wanted believers to think is clear: These heat measurements demonstrate that the particles are energetic, and therefore must be "nano" thermite.

The point here is that, even though they gave themselves a three-sentence way out of this obvious insinuation, they clearly wanted people to think that the heat data supports the argument that this chip was thermite. And on top of that, they provided data on "nano" technology to give believers another excuse to believe in the results. The bottom line is that they deceived, and that lead people to attribute the excess heat above and beyond the reaction's maximum possible to "nano" properties. That is clear in the responses in other threads.

So, as we pointed out in those other threads, there is indeed a limit to the energy released in any given reaction. And that is what the argument was; the fact that you turned out not to be making it doesn't change that at all. Too many other truthers were trying to make the argument that the excess energy released was in fact from a thermite reaction, and when confronted with the fact that it exceeded the maximum possible value for a thermite reaction, many retreated to the position that it was the "nano" property which allowed that excess to be achieved. This is a stance profoundly ignorant of chemistry. No refinement of reactants allow them to exceed their maximum possible enthalpy of reaction, yet the very clear excuse being made by apologists was exactly that.

As I said in the other thread, you managed to find the one paragraph in the paper allowing an out: The fact that the authors admitted that much of the energy released could be due to the oxidation of the organic material in the chip. You and the authors seem to be the only ones harping on that point, but regardless, it's no excuse. The very clear argument was that the nanosizing was what allowed such high measurements, and it was not an argument made in conjunction with any excuse that additional reactions were occuring to bump up the heat release. That is the "special property" we were referring to, and that is still an utterly incorrect concept to believe in.

Context is everything. There is nothing to be "put to bed" about what we said, and it was far from being "egregiously wrong". In fact, it was completely on point. There is no "nano" property that allows a reaction to exceed the maximum possible enthalpy of reaction. Period. That is what we were referring to, and noting that there were other reactions available to explain the "excess" heat, let alone noting that experiments demonstrate that refinement helps get reactions closer to the maximum theoretical heat release doesn't change the fact that those alternate reactions were never considered by anyone other than you. They were certainly never quantified by the paper's authors themselves. The bottom line here is that nothing about reactants being "nano" means the reaction can exceed the maximum enthalpy of reaction. That is what we were refuting.
 
Is anyone actually reading this thread? Why so few comments? Why do people who support the paper we are discussing not post here? The original ran for 40+ pages yet this one can't manage 3. Is no-one posting or are the mods having their work cut out and refusing to allow peoples posts?

This is the thread that people should be posting on with regard to this topic and it's going to be allowed to die yet others will grow. What's the point?

I assume it's because all the inflammatory derail is cut out here so it's taken the stuffing out of the truther arguments. I'm convinced that 98% of them are not interested in a serious debate about the issues - does this really surprise anyone?

You've made some solid criticisms of Jones' latest work, but the truthers wanted this to be the end of discussion, not the beginning - they generally have no idea how science is actually conducted, or how to evaluate theories properly, otherwise they wouldn't rush to accept this stuff in the first place.

My own criticisms of the thermite theory go beyond the red chips, although you may recall I have expressed concerns that the material showed up in samples taken at different locations, which I feel argues that it must be something quite common; also that there would almost certainly have to be residue of such material on actual WTC steel, which would have been noticeable.
Neither of those concerns have been addressed anywhere that I'm aware.

I've thrown out the idea of energy density on a couple of youtube channels (the ones that haven't blocked me immediately for posting criticism) as per observations on the original JREF forum and I received almost no feedback except some vulgar remarks and triumphal 'case closed' statements. One person has suggested we publish our own papers if we have something to say...

The one semi-intelligent assertion was that nanothermite would have a greater energy density than regular thermite (at max 4kJ/gram). So far no truther has bothered to tackle the issue of varied energy densities, or oxygen vs inert gas.

Apart from that there hasn't been a whole lot of reaction to criticism of the paper that I'm aware of. Perhaps the situation will be similar to the experience of Ryan Mackey, who says he has received very little response to his DRG NIST paper.

Is that a good thing? Anyway thanks for all your hard work - I'd love to see it published in a journal.
 
Hello everybody,

The energy density of some of the chips seems greater than the theoretical maximum for thermite? A real concern?
Even paper or wood is more energetic as far as i have understood than thermite so even a small organic material contribution
might explain the excess.
However the DSC analysis (Fig 19 Fig 29) are highly significant in that they show that the rate of the energy release is
extremely high: a very narrow and high peak, even higher than the reference nanothermite. This is what matters: power density
(Watt/g )and not energy density (J/g). I expect the oxydation in the air of an organic component to, may be, release much energy
but certainly not at such rate, and if it does i would again conclude that the chip is a very powerful staff even if cannot say that
this is due to a thermitic reaction.
Fortunately the ambiguity convincingly disappears as soon as we know that the chips ignited and produced iron dropplets so there
actually was a highly exothermic reduction of the iron oxyde.

Therefore when the MEK analysis and the comparison with paints (conductivity, spectra) come into the gain, i would say this is
just to refine the picture...just for fun! Can any expert here tell us about a paint which ignites spontaneously at 400°C and produces
iron dropplets ? Chemistry is not my field , i'm working on alternative theories of gravity so may be i missed
something important. If yes please let me know!

Frederic Henry-Couannier
 
I expect the oxydation in the air of an organic component to, may be, release much energy
but certainly not at such rate, and if it does i would again conclude that the chip is a very powerful staff even if cannot say that
this is due to a thermitic reaction.
Fortunately the ambiguity convincingly disappears as soon as we know that the chips ignited and produced iron dropplets so there
actually was a highly exothermic reduction of the iron oxyde.

That doesn't necessarily follow. Iron-rich microspheres are a well-known and characterised component of fly ash, a product of the combustion of coal - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fly_ash and http://www.inderscience.com/search/index.php?action=record&rec_id=10643&prevQuery=&ps=10&m=or for examples. Since this is a process involving normal combustion of hydrocarbons, the presence of similar residues in the products of combustion doesn't constitute any kind of evidence that something other than hydrocarbon combustion is taking place. As far as I recall (I can't check because Bentham's website seems to be offline right now), the paper doesn't demonstrate that the microspheres are actually pure iron droplets, just that they have a shiny surface and contain iron.

Dave
 
Hello everybody,

The energy density of some of the chips seems greater than the theoretical maximum for thermite? A real concern?
Even paper or wood is more energetic as far as i have understood than thermite so even a small organic material contribution
might explain the excess.
However the DSC analysis (Fig 19 Fig 29) are highly significant in that they show that the rate of the energy release is
extremely high: a very narrow and high peak, even higher than the reference nanothermite. This is what matters: power density
(Watt/g )and not energy density (J/g). I expect the oxydation in the air of an organic component to, may be, release much energy
but certainly not at such rate, and if it does i would again conclude that the chip is a very powerful staff even if cannot say that
this is due to a thermitic reaction.
Fortunately the ambiguity convincingly disappears as soon as we know that the chips ignited and produced iron dropplets so there
actually was a highly exothermic reduction of the iron oxyde.

Therefore when the MEK analysis and the comparison with paints (conductivity, spectra) come into the gain, i would say this is
just to refine the picture...just for fun! Can any expert here tell us about a paint which ignites spontaneously at 400°C and produces
iron dropplets ? Chemistry is not my field , i'm working on alternative theories of gravity so may be i missed
something important. If yes please let me know!

Frederic Henry-Couannier

Have an independent lab, with no contact (personal or agenda based) to any of the authors, perform analysis of the dust in question, and compare it to controls based on KNOWN samples from the WTC dust with a KNOWN chain of custody, and see what they come up with.

Then we will talk.

TAM:)
 
That doesn't necessarily follow. Iron-rich microspheres are a well-known and characterised component of fly ash, a product of the combustion of coal - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fly_ash and http://www.inderscience.com/search/index.php?action=record&rec_id=10643&prevQuery=&ps=10&m=or for examples. Since this is a process involving normal combustion of hydrocarbons, the presence of similar residues in the products of combustion doesn't constitute any kind of evidence that something other than hydrocarbon combustion is taking place. As far as I recall (I can't check because Bentham's website seems to be offline right now), the paper doesn't demonstrate that the microspheres are actually pure iron droplets, just that they have a shiny surface and contain iron.

Dave

The authors call them "iron rich", and the EDX spectra shows the presence of other elements (carbon, oxygen, magnesium, aluminum, silicon, sulfur, potassium, calcium, and titanium). In the paper, the authors take care to note that the spheres "weren't observed" prior to combustion in the calorimeter test, thus implying that they were not there to begin with, and only appeared after burning. It's impossible to tell whether they were spheres that existed before the test and were liberated from the containing matrix during the combustion, or whether they were honestly formed in some sort of reaction in the manner the authors claim. Other researcher would get the benefit of the doubt from me, but not these guys. I'd definitely require verification via analysis of remaining material (if they have any).
 
I have written a more detailed post in response but since the site does not admit URLs for the new ones i dont know if it will appear : so my post is probably lost

To summarize
it is completely obvious from the photos that the spherical shapes (the authors say some of them are predominately iron and some oxygen) formed as a product of the reaction (these are really big , 50microns and could not be missed in the initial chip)
can burning coal melt iron ?

F
 

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