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Is torture ever warranted?

JoeTheJuggler said:
Yeah--I always wondered what "useful information" they expected to get from someone who's been in their custody for 2 years or more.
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Not much if any in this situation.

ETA: Another point I don't think has been mentioned on this thread: when you assess the cost vs. very dubious benefit of torture, you've also got to take into account the fact that the more we torture, the more our operatives can expect to face the same kind of treatment in retaliation.
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They already are. Terrorists don't exactly follow rules and Intelligence operatives are not protected by much when it comes to espionage.
 
JoeTheJuggler said:
I thought the point of the hypothetical was that there was no time (like, no time to evacuate the area, which would certainly be the best way to avoid people getting hurt or killed).
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Yeah...uh how does that invalid the investigation of a suspected location?
 
JoeTheJuggler said:
I disagree. You can never know if the information you get as the result of torture is valid.

This is precisely the reason why we have rules of evidence on things like coerced testimony or confessions.
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Surely you can have as much knowledge of it's validity as you could from any other method? (As in, some independent verification and cross checking is required).

After all, a terrorist who pretends that he has seen the error of his ways or who 'lets something slip during interrogation' may just as easily be misdirecting you...
 
JoeTheJuggler said:
I thought the point of the hypothetical was that there was no time (like, no time to evacuate the area, which would certainly be the best way to avoid people getting hurt or killed).
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Don't confuse those clinging to wildly hypothetical scenarios with hypothetical facts.

:D
 
Megalodon said:
Would you have time, with all the goalpost shifting?
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Its a hypothetical. This is a discussion, not a debate. I have no goalpost to shift. I can change the goalpost into whatever hypothetical position I want for me to form an opinion on this issue.

I'm not advocating torture. I just believe it may have utility. Change my mind.
 
ParanoidAndroid said:
Don't confuse those clinging to wildly hypothetical scenarios with hypothetical facts.

:D
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Then show me the facts. Change my mind.

Appeals to emotion and attempting to shame me is less than useless. I just find it annoying when I'm actually trying to figure if I should change my mind on this.
 
paximperium said:
Then show me the facts. Change my mind.

Appeals to emotion and attempting to shame me is less than useless. I just find it annoying when I'm actually trying to figure if I should change my mind on this.
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Here. If you're looking for things that work (and have the cash to burn), get this one, too. Those will be far more effective at descriptively laying out the facts than I can in posts on this thread.
 
paximperium said:
Then show me the facts. Change my mind.

Appeals to emotion and attempting to shame me is less than useless. I just find it annoying when I'm actually trying to figure if I should change my mind on this.
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1) Just a joke; un-ruffle your feathers, and 2) I gave you my serious answer already.
 
Toke said:
Not quite, I did link to one case.
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/10/world/kidnapping-has-germans-debating-police-torture.html
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That's nothing of the sort. Equivocation is not a good rhetorical tactic.

In case you weren't aware, police can already intimidate witnesses with consequences that will never be able to actually happen. In fact, over-charging in order to scare bargains out of people who have been arrested is a time-honored tradition in some circles of law enforcement.
 
themusicteacher said:
... While terrorists may not be the brightest people in the world (if that assumption is even safe to make), they are also not idiots. If they've set a bomb they likely have set up a number of safeguards including executing (martyring) the only person who knows the codes, locations, etc.
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Why shouldn't terrorists be highly intelligent?
 
paximperium said:
Yeah...uh how does that invalid the investigation of a suspected location?
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If there's no time to evacuate, how could there be time to investigate the information? I thought in the hypothetical, the information was the codes to defuse the bomb.

If there's time to investigate, how can you know that you won't find the information (especially if it's just the location of a bomb) without needing to torture the guy?
 
My position towards torture is the same as towards death penalty. I might do it, and any other human might also, but I want my state to be forbidden of doing it in the most complete fashion.

We cannot aspire to completely sever our more basic instincts and urges, but we can aspire to a society that reflects what is best in humankind.
 
GreNME said:
So what if the world were invaded tomorrow by a fleet of tyranosaurus rex in F-14s? It's about the same likelihood of viability.
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And should we not hypothetically have a valid case to use nuclear bombs against those invading T-rexes in those situation just because it won't happen?
 
GreNME said:
Here. If you're looking for things that work (and have the cash to burn), get this one, too. Those will be far more effective at descriptively laying out the facts than I can in posts on this thread.
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I have a public library a few blocks from me. I'll look into it.
 
paximperium said:
Then show me the facts. Change my mind.

Appeals to emotion and attempting to shame me is less than useless. I just find it annoying when I'm actually trying to figure if I should change my mind on this.
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He was agreeing to a statement that essentially made the point that in an actual ticking time bomb scenario there would be no time to validate statements made under torture.

I can't say if this is true or not without knowing intelligence procedures, but it does at least place a further limit. We have the narrow window between an immanent enough threat to fit into the "ticking time bomb" scenario, but at the same time, the threat needs to be far enough into the future that there is time to evaluate the evidence given by torture, otherwise it's worthless info, just as likely a red herring as useful evidence.
 
paximperium said:
And should we not hypothetically have a valid case to use nuclear bombs against those invading T-rexes in those situation just because it won't happen?
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Dude, T-rexes in F-14s would just shrug off the bombs with their powers of sheer awesomeness.

Or, are you suggesting every country (who has one) punch the shiny red button to fend off a fleet of fighters flown by prehistoric pilots?

ETA:
paximperium said:
I have a public library a few blocks from me. I'll look into it.
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You'll likely find the first since it was a pretty decent seller on the book market. The latter is probably not widely available in libraries unless you go through inter-library loans to get it.
 
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