Why a one-way Crush down is not possible

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There was, but the video need about 100 to 300, all the way to 1000 frames per second to catch it. Your ideas on the WTC failed. 7 years and you can't figure out 911. Good job being all you can be; a failed 911Truth engineer, you and 0.0001 percent of all the engineers can't figure out 911. Failed ideas are few in engineering you and 911Truth have cornered the market on this delusion you have.


Tony, it comes down to bad physics for you. You can't do a proper study; what you are looking for is not to be found at video frames of 15 to 30 fps. 911Truth's failure to understand reality is expected how did you as an engineer fail and fall for delusions? Why can't you publish a paper and expose 911 as the big inside job with cutter charges, thermite and what every else Jones has dreamed up for you guys?

Since you and Heiwa are so right with your delusions and the rest of the 99.999 percent of all engineers are wrong with reality; you and 911Truth will have to take over the world to have your junk science prevail in a world dumbed down to your level of nonsense on 911.

Beachnut, it is not necessary to see the actual jolt.

I would hope you realize that a deceleration would cause a velocity drop and that it would then take the upper block time to regain it's pre-impact velocity. This time turns out to be nearly a second, during which we have taken five measurements since we take them every 167 milliseconds. There is no indication of any velocity drop having taken place, where the velocity was lower than just before impact, it just kept increasing.

Beachnut, you say you are an engineer, although I have yet to see any legitimate calculations or basis for the things you say. I would also mention that calling other engineers delusional is not very becoming of an engineer especially when you make posts like the above.
 
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Bill, I think you are understanding the situation perfectly. As more evidence of controlled demolition comes to light, the Nah na na-nah nahs are actually heard in the ever more tortured explanations we are presently hearing from those who refuse to admit that those three NYC high rise buildings were brought down via controlled demolitions on Sept. 11, 2001.

You know total reality defying statements like like there was no jolt because there was a tilt and it was gradual, or there was no active thermite found in the dust it was just paint. Of course, these things are just thrown out there with very little to no basis for good reason, because there isn't any.

Tony, have you seen this video ? It's the one with the antenna falling into the building before there is any other movement. No rotation at the top of the building...not an inch. You see the top block crunch together. Loads more observations here and it's reasonable qualty.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9-owhllM9k
 
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I'll even give you your tortured tilt explanation for the first floor there Smith. But what happens after that? There was no jolt for 114 feet that the upper block's fall was visible. Did it seesaw all the way down?

Your explanation is ridiculously tortured and without a basis. GRADUAL structural failure is not possible without an amplified load. You apparently don't understand that.

As for me getting my ass handed to me on Gregory Urich's forum, it seems that is in the eye of the beholder or should I say in the wishes of the beholder. There were a number of people who told me they saw it 180 degrees from the way you did.

So you are saying it should right itself after the initial impact? thats preposterous. Where the hell do you get seesaw? Its an asymmetric collapse. The crush front can be ahead by three floors or more from one corner of the building to the opposite. You are expecting to see a "jolt" in that? And no Tony. It is clear that you got your ass handed to you. "any number of people" would be Metamars and Heiwa. That makes two total. You lost. deal with it. You abandoned that thread to try a best out of three over here. So keep dreaming.
 
I'll even give you your tortured tilt explanation for the first floor there Smith. But what happens after that? There was no jolt for 114 feet that the upper block's fall was visible. Did it seesaw all the way down?

A jolt would only be seen if every column of the upper block struck the corresponding column of the lower block within a short interval compared to the interval between successive collisions. Since this cannot possibly be the case once the block has rotated, the upper block simply had not to right itself perfectly during the drop for no jolt to be visible. Since this agrees with the observed behaviour of the upper block, which was not seen to rotate back to a level orientation, no jolt is expected.

As for your repeated claim that a deceleration would have been visible, this is simply a failure to understand trivially simple vector analysis. The downward force of gravity and the upward effective force produced by the collisions give a resultant acceleration of the upper block. Since the collapse is observed to propagate, the upward effective force is less than the downward force, so the resultant acceleration is downwards.

Dave
 
Tony, have you seen this video ? It's the one with the antenna falling into the building before there is any other movement. No rotation at the top of the building...not an inch. You see the top block crunch together. Loads more observations here and it's reasonable qualty.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9-owhllM9k

And bill will now tell us all why other videos of the same event, which show that the rotation is present but not visible in this one because it's taken from the direction towards which the antenna is rotating, can simply be ignored.

Dave
 
Tony:
As more evidence of controlled demolition comes to light

That's funny. After 8 years you have no evidence to support your barking ideas. When you say '"as more evidence comes to light" do you mean making up more lies and misinterpreting and twisting facts? Because if you had the slightest shred of real evidence the world would know about it by now.

Bananaman (who's ban is over. Yay).
 
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As for your repeated claim that a deceleration would have been visible, this is simply a failure to understand trivially simple vector analysis.

This failure to understand trivially simple physics and engineering concepts is one of the reasons this debate is STILL happening only on relatively obscure internet forums and blogs. If they had a REAL theory, and had the support of REAL experts, this debate would be happening in the mainstream media, university lecture halls, courtrooms, and even the halls of Congress right now.

I can't stress enough how important this fact is to a layman.
 
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Yes tony. I saw where you you had your ass handed to you between Fri Jan 16, 2009 and Fri Apr 03
http://the911forum.freeforums.org/new-jones-paper-by-szamboti-and-graeme-macqueen-t119.html

Why would you expect to see deceleration "jolts" between your data points when there was a rotation and tilt of the upper floors? This tells us that the collision over an acre of floor area would not be instantaneous slap but a progressive crush wave spread out across the floor. Doesn't reading the replies in the thread I linked to from Benson, One White Eye, Greening and Dave Rogers cause you concern with your paper?

EDT: I went back and re-read a post by Ryan Mackey in the "debunk alert" thread
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4350623&postcount=73

In a controlled demolition. You would EXPECT to see a jolt because of the simultaneous cutting of columns. We don't see that, QED: progressive collapse due to gradual structural failure.

There was a jolt in WTC 7's collapse after the eight story freefall. It seems the towers were demolished continuously or at least no jolt was evident for the first nine stories. Without a jolt there is no mechanism for natural collapse. You don't seem to understand what Dr. Bazant obviously did when trying to explain it in a natural way.
 
Tony:


That's funny. After 8 years you have no evidence to support your barking ideas you have nothing. When you say '"as more evidence comes to light" do you mean making up more lies and misinterpreting and twisting facts? Because if you had the slightest shred of real evidence the world would know about it by now.

Bananaman (who's ban is over. Yay).

Talk about barking!
 
A jolt would only be seen if every column of the upper block struck the corresponding column of the lower block within a short interval compared to the interval between successive collisions. Since this cannot possibly be the case once the block has rotated, the upper block simply had not to right itself perfectly during the drop for no jolt to be visible. Since this agrees with the observed behaviour of the upper block, which was not seen to rotate back to a level orientation, no jolt is expected.

As for your repeated claim that a deceleration would have been visible, this is simply a failure to understand trivially simple vector analysis. The downward force of gravity and the upward effective force produced by the collisions give a resultant acceleration of the upper block. Since the collapse is observed to propagate, the upward effective force is less than the downward force, so the resultant acceleration is downwards.

Dave

You have to know what you are saying is ridiculous, especially the second paragraph.
 
Tony:
Talk about barking!

I'm not the one who believes in fantasies.

I see you're a hopeless case though. No evidence but you believe it. I see.

Bananaman (The not surprised).
 
So you are saying it should right itself after the initial impact? thats preposterous. Where the hell do you get seesaw? Its an asymmetric collapse. The crush front can be ahead by three floors or more from one corner of the building to the opposite. You are expecting to see a "jolt" in that? And no Tony. It is clear that you got your ass handed to you. "any number of people" would be Metamars and Heiwa. That makes two total. You lost. deal with it. You abandoned that thread to try a best out of three over here. So keep dreaming.

The thread is now just over 16 pages long and has had little activity over the last month. My last post was near the end of page 15. How you get that I abandoned the post I can't fathom. But with that charge coming from someone who doesn't see a need for a jolt in a natural collapse of a building with columns which are designed to support several times the weight above them, I guess I can understand.

As for support for my position I am not just counting those who did in the thread. There were a number of people who e-mailed me about it.
 
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Tony:


I'm not the one who believes in fantasies.

I see you're a hopeless case though. No evidence but you believe it. I see.

Bananaman (The not surprised).

Here you go again Banana, just adding more to the splendid fact based argument you are making.
 
Tony:
Here you go again Banana, just adding more to the splendid fact based argument you are making.

You have no evidence to support your theory:FACT.

And you can't get round it.

Bananaman.
 
Well, I didn't particularly wish to do this but....... there are a few questions which need to be answered in the context of what actually happened.

Here are the basics - in overview and applicable to WTC 1 and WTC 2.

First there was a sequence of events which should be agreed common ground to any reasonable proponent from "either side" if I list them this way:
  1. (Someone may have pre-positioned demolition devices - multiple options have been suggested); There may have been pre-cutting to assist collapse;
  2. Plane strikes tower and does damage, starts fire, disables fire fighting etc BUT tower remains standing;
  3. Fires rage and do other damage. (Pro demolition supporters would want the option to include some demolition here depending on their specific hypothesis);
  4. Some trigger point is reached and the Top Block starts to move downwards;
  5. The "Global collapse phase is started;
  6. ...and rapidly runs to completion;
  7. ...aftermath - not of interest for this post.

Now I would like to address the several references to the "Global Collapse" phase. It starts at the trigger point of "4" and how we got to four is now irrelevant - whether by crash plus fire plus consequences plus a uniquely vulnerable building OR all that plus a little demolition.

Save the debate of what caused the initial collapse for later - let's look at the global collapse.

Now in the global collapse phase there were three parts of structure potentially available to resist and possibly arrest the fall of the "Top Block". Those three are:
  1. The columns of the outer wall tube;
  2. The core; AND
  3. The floors between the core and outer wall (accepting that those floors depended on the columns of the core and the outer wall tube).

Now taking the outer wall columns first the evidence is clear that they peeled off and fell away and were not crushed. Whatever the proportion of load they were designed for they were not involved in resisting the fall of the top block with their full strength. Two options we need to consider
  • The no demolition option - that the descending mass sheared the joist to column connectors; AND
  • The demolition option - they were cut (and the option supported by most pro demolition claimants id explosive cutting of "something" and it wasn't the outer columns so it must be some part of the joist and the connection is obvious preference). (But "their call" - it is their hypothesis.)

Next come the outer tube floors which I would posit failed at the inner end by the same mechanism as the failure at the outer end. And I am still leaving the option open for the pro demolition folk to insert explosives.

Then the core. There are many claims for the core. I will take only the first and obvious steps at this stage. The core consists of the falling bit of the top block and the standing bit of the lower tower. Despite all the rhetoric about it being strong (it was in its original and designed function) the collapse situation at the start saw the core as if it was the two cut halves of a bird cage with very thick bars and beams. BUT a hell of a lot of space.

Many folk from both sides seem to presume that the falling core would land on the standing core and meet a full strength resistance. That is clearly not so. I will explain qualitatively at this stage leaving quantitative till later.

(And this is the point where I move from what should be agreed position towards my own interpretation.)

And I remind the non-engineers that the original usage of a column properly braced is to resist axial loads where compression is the critical and most likely mode. If deflected or bent and if not loaded centrally the axial strength is severely reduced. Similarly cross beams in the core are not designed for the massive loads of multiple floors.

So the "thick wire bird cage" of the top block core falls onto the thick wire birdcage of the lower core and a lot of the columns do not land on columns properly centred to take full original design axial load. Some columns miss altogether at the first fall others "hit and glance off," possible bending one or the other. And some horizontal beams land on other horizontal beams and bend them because they impact with way over design load. And to add insult to injury those struck beams when bending pull their end columns out of line and weaken those columns.

And the chance of some columns missing altogether must be high. (Remember I am not quantifying at this stage.)

Now there are many permutations and combinations BUT the total effect is that the falling core meets only the resistance from a fraction of the strength that the core originally had. AND it is a dynamically applied load.

So simply put and leaving all the interaction and second order effects till a later post this is what happened. (Now fully my opinion - and still leaving justification till later)

The falling Top Block wedged itself inside the outer columns ("proof" relatively trivial but deferred) It took no significant part other than resisting the fall to the shear strength failure of the joist connections (Or taking no part if we accept demolition in the global collapse)

The inner end of the joist to core column fails the same way and for the same reason. Either the falling weight of floors plus debris was overwhelming Or demolition.

The core contributes some resistance but could not be enough to stop the top block - several aspects here and all answerable later if needed.

Now in that scenario it is clear that no explosives were needed. Nor are any detailed calculations. 10 floors of total structure in the lesser case lands dynamically on the floor designed to hold one full floor load statically and it has a safety factor. No support from outer tube very reduced support of core by core. And the core would not add significant support if any to the outer floors. Again another bold assertion backable by reasons if needed.

So there is the basic outline of what I suggest happened. Other posters in recent days/weeks have supported parts of it - I have not seen the full overview posted in the couple of weeks I have been her.

So that is the background against which recent questions about the "Global collapse" can be answered. And I look forward to other comments or answering some of those questions myself.
 
... who doesn't see a need for a jolt in a natural collapse of a building with columns which are designed to support several times the weight above them......
The columns were not involved other than to resist the shearing failure of the floor joists plus a proportion of the core column capacity.

Therefore the falling load for that situation was so overwhelming that the jolt would be small.

Sure there was a jolt. But too small to be detectable at the crude "macro" level.

Assuming that columns were "crushed" is the commonest failure of analysis I have seen - and sadly from both sides of the "great divide"

Fortunately for some "no demolition posters" who use energy calculations there is more than enough energy for their wrong analysis to give, what is for them, the "right answer". i.e. including column crushing energy.

And the available energy was orders of magnitude "overwhelming" for the actual mechanism of the collapse which at most used less than half the column strength and probably far less.
 
Since people who insist the collapse initation as described by the NIST and others was impossible arrogantly claim it is so obvious, the only thing left to do is tell them to put up or shut up, because they obviously don't want to hear any arguments that put their theories into any doubt whatsoever.

So, if it is indeed so OBVIOUS, get a person or organization who is actually respected in engineering and scientifc circles who can actually DO SOMETHING about it to carry your torch. With evidence SO compelling you'd think SOMEBODY would be stepping up. But, here we are 8 years after the fact and we have a tiny minory of laymen investigoogling pseudoscientists and snake oil salesmen--with a few disgraced and ignored real scientists thrown in for dramitic effect--debating on internet forums.

For Christ's sake truthers, do you have any idea how ludicrious that looks to an abject layman like me? Do you have any idea how impotent and irrational you appear to us? I can only imagine how frustrating you folks must be to people who actually study the collapses in a rational way and know what the hell they are talking about.
 
Originally Posted by Dave Rogers
A jolt would only be seen if every column of the upper block struck the corresponding column of the lower block within a short interval compared to the interval between successive collisions. Since this cannot possibly be the case once the block has rotated, the upper block simply had not to right itself perfectly during the drop for no jolt to be visible. Since this agrees with the observed behaviour of the upper block, which was not seen to rotate back to a level orientation, no jolt is expected.

As for your repeated claim that a deceleration would have been visible, this is simply a failure to understand trivially simple vector analysis. The downward force of gravity and the upward effective force produced by the collisions give a resultant acceleration of the upper block. Since the collapse is observed to propagate, the upward effective force is less than the downward force, so the resultant acceleration is downwards.

Dave
You have to know what you are saying is ridiculous, especially the second paragraph.
The statements are not perfect but why do you say the second paragraph is ridiculous? Which bits do you disagree with?
 
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