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Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

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These details begin in John's second chapter and comprise the following list:

1. Archaeology confirms the use of stone water jars in New Testament times (John 2:6).

Homer doesn't make reference to Tuperware does that mean the Odyssey is factually correct?

If the domestic references were incorrect we would be discussing whether the documents were modern fakes. The fact that authors correctly noted everyday items circa that period (stone jars were used for a fair length of time) does not make their more fantastical claims true. There is a logical leap there that does not stand up to any kind of scrutiny. If one is simply trying to demonstrate that the gospels originated in the Middle East circa 70 to 200 AD then this is a reasonable expectation. To argue that they were from the Middle East circa 70 to 200 AD therefore they must be right is rather more tricky.
 
In Les Miserables, Victor Hugo describes France in the 1800's. He covers the land, the architecture, and history. He describes events that really occurred. Does this make Hugo a "great historian"?
He has several characters running around. All of whom are flawed and, well, human. He includes details of their transgressions as well as their victories. Their flaws and their strengths. Does this mean Jean Valjean exists?

Alexandre Dumas described Europe in 1800's as well. He includes real historical characters, such as Napoleon. And places, such as France, Italy, and the Mediterranean. He includes details on sailing. Does this make him a historian?
He also has several wonderfully quirky characters running around. All very human, and flawed. Does this mean that Monsieur Noirtier de Villefort really lived?


I could go on.

All the "facts" you trot out are either people writing in settings they knew (which proves nothing about the storyline's truth) or are lies.
 
Here are examples of problems between what the author of Acts writes and what other sources (including the Bible itself) have to say:

Acts 1:18 - Judas dies by falling on his head and bursting open so his bowels gush out.

Matthew 27:5 Judas committed suicide by hanging himself.
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Acts 5:36-37 Theudas raises up with some followers and is killed. After his attempted revolt, Judas the Galilean rose up with his followers at the time of the census and was killed.

Josephus Antiquities 20:97-98 Theudas raised a revolt around 44-46 CE. Judas the Galilean opposed the new taxes following the census of Quirinius in.......6 or 7 CE.
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Acts 7:30 Scene of the burning bush story on Mt. Sinai

Exodus 3:1 Scene of the burning bush story on Mt. Horeb
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Acts 11:28 Great famine happened during the reign of Claudius (who appointed Herod of Agrippa). "Luke" then describes Herod Agrippa's actions against the church, after the famine.

Josephus Antiquities 20:51-53 Heord Agrippa died in 44 CE. Josephus mentions the famine happening in 47 CE.
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Hopefully this is a small enough post so DOC will read it.

I'm not even going into the differences between Paul's own letters and "Luke's" accounts in Acts.
 
DOC said:
And I guess the writer's also tailored the words of Christ. So these liars and deceivers (as you imply) were able to create the most moral and sublime teachings (at least according to Thomas Jefferson) the world has ever known.
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Lame argument by authority noted, you haven't even considered the notion that Thomas Jefferson was wrong.
 
DOC said:
What examples, the quote you gave doesn't include the verse of Zachariah or the verse of Matthew?
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These are all from your "preferred" KJV translation, here ya' go:

Zechariah 9:9 said:
Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he [is] just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
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Note the poetic repetition. This is fairly common in OT prose-poems.

Mark 11:2-7 said:
And saith unto them, Go your way into the village over against you: and as soon as ye be entered into it, ye shall find a colt tied, whereon never man sat; loose him, and bring [him]. And if any man say unto you, Why do ye this? say ye that the Lord hath need of him; and straightway he will send him hither.

And they went their way, and found the colt tied by the door without in a place where two ways met; and they loose him. And certain of them that stood there said unto them, What do ye, loosing the colt? And they said unto them even as Jesus had commanded: and they let them go. And they brought the colt to Jesus, and cast their garments on him; and he sat upon him.
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One donkey, young and male.

Luke 19:30-35 said:
Saying, Go ye into the village over against [you]; in the which at your entering ye shall find a colt tied, whereon yet never man sat: loose him, and bring [him hither]. And if any man ask you, Why do ye loose [him]? thus shall ye say unto him, Because the Lord hath need of him.

And they that were sent went their way, and found even as he had said unto them. And as they were loosing the colt, the owners thereof said unto them, Why loose ye the colt? And they said, The Lord hath need of him. And they brought him to Jesus: and they cast their garments upon the colt, and they set Jesus thereon.
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One donkey, young and male, very similar to the previous story, but we already knew that Luke plagiarized from Mark.

John 12:14-15 said:
And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written, Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt.
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One donkey, young and male. Here, John even quotes Zechariah almost verbatim ("as it is written"), demonstrating quite clearly that the New Testament authors were aware of the Old Testament prophecies and made sure to tie them into their stories.

And finally:

Matthew 21:2-7 said:
Saying unto them, Go into the village over against you, and straightway ye shall find an ass tied, and a colt with her: loose [them], and bring [them] unto me. And if any [man] say ought unto you, ye shall say, The Lord hath need of them; and straightway he will send them. All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass. And the disciples went, and did as Jesus commanded them, And brought the ass, and the colt, and put on them their clothes, and they set [him] thereon.
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Two donkeys, a female and her colt. Oopsie.

But it is pretty clear where Matthew was going with this. He has the details found in Mark*, with embellishments of his own. He also cites the verse from Zechariah (much as John does), but interprets it literally rather than poetically (as do the authors of the other Gospels).

These types of details make it fairly clear that the gospel writers were not only aware of the Old Testament prophecies, but that they were willing to skew their own narratives to more closely fulfill those prophecies.

If you want to get into a discussion as to the OT version of a military messiah, the building of a temple, and the differences between the northern and southern kingdoms of what we now call Israel, slide on over to the Scriptural Literacy thread. You might learn something.



*- There is evidence that both Matthew and Luke had access to Mark's gospel and lifted certain sections from it. In some cases word for word.
 
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Hokulele said:
These types of details make it fairly clear that the gospel writers were not only aware of the Old Testament prophecies, but that they were willing to skew their own narratives to more closely fulfill those prophecies.
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These types of posts make it fairly clear that you're in credit!

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six7s said:
These types of posts make it fairly clear that you're in credit!
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No, no. She's better than that:

sublime.jpg
 
Greediguts said:
Here are examples of problems between what the author of Acts writes and what other sources (including the Bible itself) have to say:

Acts 1:18 - Judas dies by falling on his head and bursting open so his bowels gush out.

Matthew 27:5 Judas committed suicide by hanging himself.
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But if they had been setting out to write a made-up story, it's highly likely that they would at least have made sure that it was internally consistent.

So those contradictory statements must both be true!

Oh, hang on...
 
Hokulele said:
Hokulele's post #3272
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I personally like the example of Jesus' birth place in Bethlehem. A long elaborate explanation that stretches credulity and is contradicted by the known facts but one which has the advantage of appearing to fulfil the prediction made in Micah 5:1-2 and Hosea 11:1:

Now gather thyself in troops, O daughter of troops: he hath laid siege against us: they shall smite the judge of Israel with a rod upon the cheek.

But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
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Hosea 11:1

When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.
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Even if it is quite obvious that Hosea never intended it as a prediction.



Similarly, the virgin birth is often considered to not only be made up to fulfil a prediction, but in fact, a mistranslation of a prediction.
 
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