The Zeitgeist Movement... why not?

[AWPrime]

Robots: Exterminate, Kill, Exterminate, Kill, Exterminate, Kill.....

 

[fullflavormenthol]

Robots: Exterminate, Kill, Exterminate, Kill, Exterminate, Kill.....

Well thats one way to solve to ills of society. A Modest Proposal 2009, this time its personal.

 

[dudalb]

Robots: Exterminate, Kill, Exterminate, Kill, Exterminate, Kill.....

How much you being paid to plug "Terminator: Salvation?"

 

[Travis]

I wonder how things like food will be handled. If everything is being done with efficiency and equality in mind will we all be forced to subsist on a flavorless mush, let's call it RootMarm, drink only plain water and get punished if we get caught hoarding sweet berries?

 

[RoboTimbo]

I wonder how things like food will be handled. If everything is being done with efficiency and equality in mind will we all be forced to subsist on a flavorless mush, let's call it RootMarm, drink only plain water and get punished if we get caught hoarding sweet berries?

Why should we stop calling it Soylent Green?

 

[Travis]

Why should we stop calling it Soylent Green?

Because Jebidiah Springfield says so.

 

[Mr_Mix]

And now we are back at the beginning in which it can be brought up how there is an inherent cost regardless of monetary value, and that it is impossible to eliminate scarcity in any society...even a planned one using "hard scientific data", given that there are too many variables to accurately predict it.

Well let’s talk about the inherent cost for a moment. There is a cost of energy that is needed to run a society. The idea in a RBE is that most of that energy needed to run a city in a VP society would be needed for machines so electric energy is what we need and we can get it from renewable sources like wind and hydro. That’s the “cost”.
Impossible to eliminate scarcity in any society? I doubt that very much. Impossible is a pretty strong word.

 

[Prometheus]

Well let’s talk about the inherent cost for a moment. There is a cost of energy that is needed to run a society. The idea in a RBE is that most of that energy needed to run a city in a VP society would be needed for machines so electric energy is what we need and we can get it from renewable sources like wind and hydro. That’s the “cost”.
Impossible to eliminate scarcity in any society? I doubt that very much. Impossible is a pretty strong word.

So the magic robots are gonna build all the dams and windmills that they need to power themselves. Of course, they'll also be building other magic robots that will be repairing/maintaining or building repacement parts for the initial magic robots. What exactly do the magic robots need us for?

 

[Mr_Mix]

So is the only assertion of this resource-based economy "abundant resources for all humanity?" What resources are considered here, only bare necessities? How is the common heritage of humanity supposed to share the resources that are naturally scarce?

There are other things that would occur like vastly diminished crime of all kinds, better education, better technology without planned obsolescence, no paid labor and competition for labor…lots of things.

A few hundred years ago our current capitalist “democratic” society looked utopian. Now, our possible future society sounds utopian. Our current understandings are all based on present notions. Many humans have a hard time envisioning the future because they cling tenaciously to their old, outdated value system because they identify with it and value it even if it no longer holds real value. Who wants to lose their identity and all they cherish?

Technology is changing the way we live at a continually growing rate. We will enter into the next phase of human social evolution faster than in the past so it won’t be tens of years or hundreds of years between paradigm shifts; it will be decades, then years etc.

All resources that are considered are all that humans need to live their lives to the fullest potential. I would say everything the earth can provide coupled with human ingenuity and science. Those are the resources we are talking about.

Also, you mentioned that all resources are physically scarce. How so?

 

[Mr_Mix]

Look, I understand the need and desire for a new system when it comes to how our society and civilization will need to be able to sustain itself. However, the Venus Project is not only a poor choice and model for a sustainable future, it is unrealistic and in many ways downright delusional.

I don't see too much disagreement between myself, many here and you along with many of the TVP proponents when it comes to the need to change how our civilizations do things.

However, I believe that TVP is not only the wrong way to fix the Earth but it is harmful. It gives people false hope in something that will never succeed because of its own massive internal flaws.


Yes, I read the earlier part of this thread and it is for all essential purpose false. Many resources are abundant but some are actually rare and some are rare because they are very difficult and dangerous to mine.

Yes it is. It is happening without a "Resource based Economy." It is happening because of the free markets: supply and demand.

Sorry but here is where TVP completely detaches itself from reality. You could claim that a TVP society would do things quickly but that is a fanciful claim with no evidence to back it up.

Do you know why we use wood for housing?
Because it is a cheap and abundant resource so why would we stop using it? What are you going to replace it with? Plastics?

Uh...yes and we are already doing it.
Kind of. There is a lot but many are very difficult to get to. There is a reason we have mines that goes a few miles underground. Most of the easily mined metals are already used up.

Fresh water is not abundant. Clean water processes will help solve some of the problem but Fresh water itself is not abundant. Desalination is a very energy intensive and difficult process.

Uh...you know they used oil to produce artificial rubber and we still are using that process today?
Sigh. I'm sorry but that is a very naive view of the world. Many wars are not just fought over resources but ideologies as well. The Nazis invaded Poland and the rest of Europe not for resources but power. The Vietnam War was over ideology. The war in Afghanistan is over religious fundamentalism. A TVP world would not solve that problem at all.


Titanium, industrial diamonds, processed silicon, palladium, osmium, iridium, lithium, uranium, plutonium and many many more. These are rare because all the easy stores have been mined.

You do realize that all this information is already readily available?

I completely disagree.

TVP is a utopian ideal that masks itself in the veneer of the scientific method. It is an unrealistic system where it attempt to fix problems by applying unevidenced methods that they claim is based on science but it more akin to science fiction. TVP relies on technology that has not even been developed yet to be even partially sustainable. It glosses over real problems by hand waving it away and claming that it will be fixed by their methods.

I find many of the anti-democratic and big brother concepts even more vile.

So we agree that we need to change things. Great. What do you suggest?

Some resources are difficult to mine. I think we could substitute some, synthesize others and improve the way in which we mine these resources using technology. Also, some predict nano tech to become useful for making resources in the next 20 years. Think of the effect that will have on economies and such. That’s just off the top of my head. I don’t know how scarce many of the earth’s resources are so I would need to check that out further to have a valid opinion about it.

As for housing I think we have alternatives to wood that could be used. Also, your right, wood is cheap. That’s why we are destroying forests. Because it’s cheap. See where I'm going with that? We do things now because of monetary concern which we would not do in a VP scenario. I'm sure we can use material other than wood to build homes.

I would say that the war in Afghanistan is for money and power.

Much of the technology needed for a RBE does already exist. Many people aren’t informed or aware of the state of current technology. I mean they are just ignorant to it. This isn’t all really advanced stuff. Much of it is used today but not in the way it would be used outside of a monetary system.

Anti democratic you say. Do you really believe that you live in a democracy because you vote once every 4 years for some guy who is totally under skilled to solve the country’s problems? Come on. Did you vote on a war? Do you vote for every decision that goes on in your society? You wouldn’t have enough time in the day to vote on everything. A democracy, if it existed, isn’t even practical in reality. Look, you don’t live in a democracy. It’s fake. Why defend such a false system? I don’t mean to hurt anyone’s values here. Indoctrination by the current institutions make people think they need to defend what they see as belonging to them. I don’t want a real democracy because I would need to vote 100 times a day on every decision and I don’t have the knowledge to vote on everything. I'm ignorant to many important subjects just like all of us are so why would I put my ignorant, worthless opinion on everything we need to do? Answers should be "arrived at" using real data. Not opinions. Real democracy doesn’t appeal to me and this fake one is awful for obvious reasons.

If things are needed they are done in a RBE. That’s it. What is needed would become apparent. It’s not like "Oh I think we should build a bridge right there. Maybe we should vote on it." If a bridge is needed, it will be built. It won’t be built because someone thinks it should be. The world’s problems are technical in nature. They are solved with a technical process.

What is big brother about this? Are you using information gathered from Hollywood movies about the future or does a RBE like VP really seem big brother-ish? How?

 

[Mr_Mix]

I'm going to dispense some needed advice to all those thinking about remolding society.

No one ideology gets it all right! None of them do. They all like to claim that they do but they don't. None ever has. An ideology only works when everything happens the way it predicts and due to the imperfect nature of humanity that means that pure ideologies just don't work.

Now The Venus Project claims it is not trying to create a utopia because it acknowledges fault....But it also has decided that it's ideology will be the Scientific Method and will exclude other ideological paradigms like capitalism, socialism, religion, monetary economics, feudalism and so on.

Here's the thing. The components of the this society will be built with the aggregate results of those discarded ideologies. Did a society with no monetary system invent computers? How about concrete? Fiber optic cables?

Even the goal of ecological stability is pirated from the societies that are supposedly worthless. The environmental movement rose up, not in a moneyless utopia, but in the middle of a highly capitalistic society. So to did geothermal power, solar power, wind power and nuclear power.

The Venus Project is basically appropriating the fruits of the labor or the ideologies it despises and is attempting to use them to create some sort of glorified Club Med for people with PhD's in robotics.

And would it work? Probably not. There's still that thing about no one ideology knowing everything so eventually something will happen it can't deal with and it will go the way of history as has so many similar attempts before it.

History's cruel like that.

You're saying that computers, concrete, fiber optic cables etc could only have been created in a monetary system. That’s false. They we're made in a monetary system, not as a unique result of that system. To suggest that these things would never exists if not for the idea of money is probably wrong. Humans created many of the most important technologies because they wanted to. Not because they were paid to do it.

The monetary system worked for a while but its showing cracks and we can’t continue like this for very long. It was good. I liked it. We all did. But we have to change now. The monetary system was a good idea for a long time. It got us far. It did gave us a framework in which great things were created. Its time to move on now. The writing is on the wall. It would be hard not to move along so let’s think of the next phase. The next phase may end up looking much like an RBE.


Of course ecological stability and the green environment movements rose up in a capitalist society. Capitalism creates a lot of waste and we're all going "ummm...this cant be good." Where else would a green movement come up? I don’t see your point here. Clarify?

 

[Mr_Mix]

Um what? Just how much of each resource do you think we have?




Except there is a cost. The materials don't just grow on trees and the technologies aren't going to invent themselves.



So we're going to replace wood, something that grows back, with something with a finite availability. Why don't we just stop growing cotton and use nothing but synthetics too.



There is a lot of certain metals in the Earth still. Others are exceedingly rare.



Please explain how copper will be made in laboratories.



Alert! Massive arable land discovered on newly discovered continent of Mu! It seems no one ever inventoried all the land before Venus Project geniuses did!




So democracy is something else the Venus Project knows nothing about. Who decides what the social concerns are? Who prioritizes their remediation?

I think knowing what to grow where, how and how much is important because the earth is losing arable land to deforestation and agriculture. Topsoil is going to be a scarce resource if we continue to destroy it. Knowing what to grow where and how in a sustainable manner seems like a legit concern. It would need to be done regionally I suppose. Also, hydroponics would ease demand pressure so that is very important as well.

Not using wood for homes is a good idea because although trees grow back, they may not have enough useable land to grow back on one day in the not too distant future. I stand by my statement there.

Nobody decides what the social concerns are in a RBE as proposed by The Venus Project. Nobody needs to prioritizes them either. AI arrives at conclusions based on the real data. The answers present themselves using the data. Just like AI decides many factors in many different areas of life right now. It’s not a matter of opinion. Opinions by unskilled people are not relevant. Real data is.

Who do you think decides these things now? You, with your vote on one question about which of the two ignorant people should run things? Your one vote decides all of these things in our "democracy"? We elect someone and they do what they wish all while influencing and controlling public opinion enough to get away with it. That’s what happens now.

 

[Mr_Mix]

So the magic robots are gonna build all the dams and windmills that they need to power themselves. Of course, they'll also be building other magic robots that will be repairing/maintaining or building repacement parts for the initial magic robots. What exactly do the magic robots need us for?

AI is not sentient. If you smash a laptop in front of other laptops they wont get upset.

All these systems will be supervised by humans. That’s one of the few jobs that will be left in this society. Think about what their incentives will be.

There will be self repairing systems in the near future. They exist to some extent right now. That said, humans will play a role in repairing, maintenance and overseeing these systems.

 

[Prometheus]

<snip>...To suggest that these things would never exists if not for the idea of money is probably wrong. Humans created many of the most important technologies because they wanted to. Not because they were paid to do it... <snip>

This whole idea that TVP dispenses with money is just wrong. Money is nothing other than a medium of exchange. TVP has that in it's "distribution centers". It just isn't on paper, so to speak. In order to distribute resources fairly to everyone, you have to have some means of recording who's already gotten how much of whatever. Whatever that recording mechanism is, that's money. The only real difference between TVP and the present system of exchange, is that TVP requires that everybody receive the same amount of that [whatever] -- in other words, it's Communism. Fresco claims he's not a Communist, but he's wrong--he just doesn't know what a Communist is.

 

[The_Animus]

Out of all the forums I post in regarding this topic, I find it funny that the most juvenile name calling comes from a forum about critical thought. Mind you, there are great, reasonable guys in here with excellent, valid questions that I appreciate but a lot of childish behavior as well.

It is rather unfortunate that this is the case. Double edged sword I guess. I've found it's best to either ignore them or respond as if you were never insulted in the first place. Otherwise you just get sucked in.

 

[Prometheus]

AI is not sentient. If you smash a laptop in front of other laptops they wont get upset.

It doesn't matter whether it is sentient or not. All that matters is that it behaves as though it were. The robots won't need us; they don't need to know that they don't need us.

All these systems will be supervised by humans. That’s one of the few jobs that will be left in this society. Think about what their incentives will be.

There will be self repairing systems in the near future. They exist to some extent right now. That said, humans will play a role in repairing, maintenance and overseeing these systems.

Why?

 

[quixotecoyote]

Why?

As in "why stop there?"

If we've already magiked up robots that can do everything except supervise, repair, and maintain themselves, why not magik up some that don't have those limitations?

 

[paximperium]

So we agree that we need to change things. Great. What do you suggest?

I have many ideas. Be specific.

I don’t know how scarce many of the earth’s resources are so I would need to check that out further to have a valid opinion about it.

Why don't you and your TVP do that and get back to us?

As for housing I think we have alternatives to wood that could be used. Also, your right, wood is cheap. That’s why we are destroying forests. Because it’s cheap. See where I'm going with that?

Yes I see where you're going. You're going to attempt to handwave away cost by equating it with money alone and believe cost will magically dissipate into thin air with your Resource Based Economy.

We do things now because of monetary concern which we would not do in a VP scenario. I'm sure we can use material other than wood to build homes.

Sure you could but cost would go up anyway.

I would say that the war in Afghanistan is for money and power.

9/11 and 3000 dead civilians proves you wrong.

Much of the technology needed for a RBE does already exist. Many people aren’t informed or aware of the state of current technology. I mean they are just ignorant to it. This isn’t all really advanced stuff. Much of it is used today but not in the way it would be used outside of a monetary system.

How do you know this or is another vague claim with great promises but no details?

Anti democratic you say. Do you really believe that you live in a democracy because you vote once every 4 years for some guy who is totally under skilled to solve the country’s problems?

I vote about every 2 years for state representatives, senators, house representatives, various Propositions, school boards etc. and for the President of the United States. All of this is spelled out in Constitution of the United States and the State Constitution as well. I also do some political stuff with my local political party.

Come on. Did you vote on a war? Do you vote for every decision that goes on in your society? You wouldn’t have enough time in the day to vote on everything.

No I didn't. The Representatives I voted on did.

A democracy, if it existed, isn’t even practical in reality.

Exactly hence we don't have a Athenian style democracy.

Look, you don’t live in a democracy.

Good point. I live in a Republic Representative Democracy.

It’s fake. Why defend such a false system?

What's fake? It's all spelled out in the US Constitution for all to see.

I don’t mean to hurt anyone’s values here. Indoctrination by the current institutions make people think they need to defend what they see as belonging to them. I don’t want a real democracy because I would need to vote 100 times a day on every decision and I don’t have the knowledge to vote on everything. I'm ignorant to many important subjects just like all of us are so why would I put my ignorant, worthless opinion on everything we need to do?

And here is where I find YOUR mindset lazy and vile. If you don't want the responsibility to vote or to get involved with politics and the democratic process, then don't. Don't blame others for your failures and your inability to study or make decisions you feel too dumb to make a decision on.

I and many others do HAVE informed opinions on many things.

Answers should be "arrived at" using real data. Not opinions.

You obviously have no idea about how science and even the real world functions. Science and hard facts are just that, it does not elicit or purely justifies everything you or anyone does.

If "science" and "real data" states that you should kill all comatose patients to save cost things like ethics and "politics" should and must oppose it.

Real democracy doesn’t appeal to me and this fake one is awful for obvious reasons.

No it isn't awful for obvious reasons. It is "awful" for those who don't understand it. It sure isn't perfect but it is better than anything else we have ever had in the past. We have more freedoms, education etc. etc. etc. than in any time in human history.

What you want to do is tear down a system that you don't understand, don't feel smart enough to participate in, are too lazy to walk down to the local political party or start your own little group and replace it with a system where you no longer have to bear any responsibility or make any decisions. Sorry if most people are opposed to this.

If things are needed they are done in a RBE. That’s it. What is needed would become apparent. It’s not like "Oh I think we should build a bridge right there. Maybe we should vote on it." If a bridge is needed, it will be built. It won’t be built because someone thinks it should be. The world’s problems are technical in nature. They are solved with a technical process.

"We need to build 500 hundred bridges in North America."
"But we can only build 50 a year."
"Why is that?"
"Because all the steel is being used to build spaceships and robots."
"I will magic all the engineers and resources you need."
"Dude, what have you been smoking?"
"Whatever man...so which bridge should we build first?"

Just claiming it and ignoring reality will not make it so.

What is big brother about this? Are you using information gathered from Hollywood movies about the future or does a RBE like VP really seem big brother-ish? How?

You must have not read the part where all the TVP and RBE systems monitor everything. It is the only way for your AI systems to work.

"Mr Z, you have not made your work quota for today."
"Dude I'm too stoned to work."
"Mr Z if you do not meet your quoata, you will have your ganja rations decreased."
"Dude, you're persecuting me!!!"

TVP succeeds as a fantasy by handwaving away real economic problems and claming unknown technology will somehow fix all these problems. It continues to be a fantasy.

 

[Kay]

Anti democratic you say. Do you really believe that you live in a democracy because you vote once every 4 years for some guy who is totally under skilled to solve the country’s problems? Come on. Did you vote on a war? Do you vote for every decision that goes on in your society? You wouldn’t have enough time in the day to vote on everything. A democracy, if it existed, isn’t even practical in reality. Look, you don’t live in a democracy. It’s fake. Why defend such a false system? I don’t mean to hurt anyone’s values here. Indoctrination by the current institutions make people think they need to defend what they see as belonging to them. I don’t want a real democracy because I would need to vote 100 times a day on every decision and I don’t have the knowledge to vote on everything. I'm ignorant to many important subjects just like all of us are so why would I put my ignorant, worthless opinion on everything we need to do? Answers should be "arrived at" using real data. Not opinions. Real democracy doesn’t appeal to me and this fake one is awful for obvious reasons.

Congratulations, you have discovered that America is a republic. Good for you.
Anyways, so since you have problem with "fake democracies" - ie. republics, and you acknowledge that pure democracy is a really dumb idea, you think that the best alternative is to let computers run your entire life for you. You know what? I'll pass. I like running my own life as I see fit.

And are you really arguing that ideology has nothing to do with human thinking and the way they run things? I mean, look at the Crusades - those were motivated by the desire to do good in God's name, not so much out of power and wealth (It would make sense for the European kings to concentrate on their power that was right next to them if you argue otherwise - as indeed, many of the European kings found out the hard way when they discovered that their power back home had been massively weakened by them running around Crusading.)

 

[thought_fugitive]

There are other things that would occur like vastly diminished crime of all kinds, better education, better technology without planned obsolescence, no paid labor and competition for labor…lots of things.

A few hundred years ago our current capitalist “democratic” society looked utopian. Now, our possible future society sounds utopian. Our current understandings are all based on present notions. Many humans have a hard time envisioning the future because they cling tenaciously to their old, outdated value system because they identify with it and value it even if it no longer holds real value. Who wants to lose their identity and all they cherish?

Technology is changing the way we live at a continually growing rate. We will enter into the next phase of human social evolution faster than in the past so it won’t be tens of years or hundreds of years between paradigm shifts; it will be decades, then years etc.

All resources that are considered are all that humans need to live their lives to the fullest potential. I would say everything the earth can provide coupled with human ingenuity and science. Those are the resources we are talking about.

Also, you mentioned that all resources are physically scarce. How so?

So, if you're including me in the group of humans who "have a hard time envisioning the future because they cling tenaciously to their old, outdated value system because they identify with it and value it even if it no longer holds real value" I'd like to know how you could come to such a conclusion. I mean, my post was three sentences! Is it that obvious? Honestly, I can't think of anything that I cherish. Nothing. And isn't an anguishing faux-nihilist teenager supposed to be into this kind of cool stuff? Does it make me antiquated and dogmatic because I haven't accepted the value-set of a robo-Marxist society which will never come to fruition?

I'll assume the analogy about the past and utopia is to help put the future of society into perspective the simpletons here can understand. Regardless of your implications, you have pointed out the function of envisioning the future, and that's an inherent human trait. There's a difference between envisioning and predicting accurately though. The latter is something that isn't inherent in humans(well, at least those who aren't Nostradamus or Dutch.) However, the former is crucial in the maintenance and progress of society, if not most aspects of human and community life. Having a goal or a vision and plans to arrive there can certainly be a great thing. As I was saying about the predictability of the future, you don't know what will impact your vision. Something just might come up which makes your vision impractical and/or impossible.

Well, the first thing for you consider is another element of human nature and that is competition. Although it has its biological roots, frequently it manifests in the society of the capitalist system. You shouldn't have to look hard for an example. It's important to understand that much of the people who have benefited from such a system will give up their soul quicker than they would their earnings. There are too many people who would absolutely never participate in anything resembling a Venusian society, and unfortunately for you, they're the ones with the power in the world. I doubt a peaceful coexistence could happen between such ideologies.

Second, I've seen no evidence for any plans or methodologies for using technology in the fantastic ways Zeitgeist and proponents suggest, nor have I for bringing our current technology to a point where such uses are plausibly possible. Aside from that, do you really think all problems are technical in nature? Have the millennia of development in ethical philosophy been for absolutely nothing? Can AI properly determine the importance of social issues without accurately mimicking human thought?

Also, I never said that all resources are physically scarce. I wanted a realistic explanation of how the resources which are naturally scarce are to be handled in this society. Demand will exceed supply. People will be denied of the achievement of intellectual pursuits and hence they will be deprived of reaching their "fullest potential."

However, none of this is going to convince any forum fanbois, so maybe posts like this are in vain. I will say that if a mission statement, plan, or quantification of crucial claims are presented by the Zeitgeist Movement I'll reconsider my opinions. Best of luck changing the world!