Hokulele - kurious_kathy Book Challenge

[Evolved Wookie]

The imagery for starters. Exactly which orifice does one enter Christ, and what were you doing in Christ's privy.

I can think of so many answers to this, yet I can't use a single one of them...

 

[Marcus]

Yes for unbeliever in Christ I realize that's your interpretation of it, but that does not prove you right either.

And all I can say to you if you choose to hate God, Maranatha! You only condemn yourself in doing so!!

This has come up in your threads before, Kathy. You don't seem to be grasping the impossibility of hating a fictional character. Put yourself in the same position. I assume you think that Zeus is fictional, would it really be possible for you to hate him? In order for someone to hate god, first they would have to believe he exists.

 

[paximperium]

This has come up in your threads before, Kathy. You don't seem to be grasping the impossibility of hating a fictional character. Put yourself in the same position. I assume you think that Zeus is fictional, would it really be possible for you to hate him? In order for someone to hate god, first they would have to believe he exists.

Bad example. KK probably believes Zeus and all the old mythical gods is Satan in disguise.

 

[Marcus]

Perhaps I should have used the Flying Spagetti Monster, but I didn't want to be condemmed for blasphemy by His Noodleness.

 

[madurobob]

This has come up in your threads before, Kathy. You don't seem to be grasping the impossibility of hating a fictional character. Put yourself in the same position. I assume you think that Zeus is fictional, would it really be possible for you to hate him? In order for someone to hate god, first they would have to believe he exists.

I've heard this line of argument before, and I don't buy it. I agree its silly (or, perhaps immature is the right word) to hate a fictional character, but I think its entirely possible to know a character is fictional and still hate it. I can think of a few characters I hated in books I read in my formative years.

I outgrew it, of course, but I did hate them at the time.

 

[RoboTimbo]

I've heard this line of argument before, and I don't buy it. I agree its silly (or, perhaps immature is the right word) to hate a fictional character, but I think its entirely possible to know a character is fictional and still hate it. I can think of a few characters I hated in books I read in my formative years.

I outgrew it, of course, but I did hate them at the time.

The real problem is kk takes all the examples given of how her god would be an evil being if it existed and stripping out the if it existed part, and then saying, "Aha! you acknowledge god's existence but you hate him." She may as well sign her posts as yhtaK.

kk wants us to hate god, so that she can say that we must really believe in him. She subscribes to what Marcus said.

In order for someone to hate god, first they would have to believe he exists.

 

[madurobob]

The real problem is kk takes all the examples given of how her god would be an evil being if it existed and stripping out the if it existed part, and then saying, "Aha! you acknowledge god's existence but you hate him." She may as well sign her posts as yhtaK.

kk wants us to hate god, so that she can say that we must really believe in him. She subscribes to what Marcus said.

Oh yes, I get that. But, to me, the problem is not the definition of "hate" (e.g.; you cannot "hate" something that doesn't exist), but rather the definition of god. By definition (to me, at least) "god" is a fictional character. I'm free to love, hate or be indifferent towards that fictional character, but my feelings or lack thereof have no bearing on its existence as anything other than imaginary.

ETA: of course, the equivocation is on "hate". My definition allows me to hate fictional characters. KK inserts her own definition that eliminates fictional characters and can then say, by using her definition, I MUST think those fictional characters real. Problem is, that lets in a lot of fictional characters, not just one.

 

[joobz]

kk wants us to hate god, so that she can say that we must really believe in him. She subscribes to what Marcus said.

Definitely. But, what I don't understand is based upon her views of god, why she doesn't hate him.

 

[Ocelot]

Definitely. But, what I don't understand is based upon her views of god, why she doesn't hate him.

Stockholme syndrome?

 

[madurobob]

Definitely. But, what I don't understand is based upon her views of god, why she doesn't hate him.

I suspect its for many of the same reasons my little sister couldn't bring herself to "hate" and leave her abusive husband for all those years.

 

[RoboTimbo]

Oh yes, I get that. But, to me, the problem is not the definition of "hate" (e.g.; you cannot "hate" something that doesn't exist), but rather the definition of god. By definition (to me, at least) "god" is a fictional character. I'm free to love, hate or be indifferent towards that fictional character, but my feelings or lack thereof have no bearing on its existence as anything other than imaginary.

ETA: of course, the equivocation is on "hate". My definition allows me to hate fictional characters. KK inserts her own definition that eliminates fictional characters and can then say, by using her definition, I MUST think those fictional characters real. Problem is, that lets in a lot of fictional characters, not just one.

I figured you got it. Joobz had a good question, though. If someone truly believes in their god, how could they possibly not hate him?

ETA: Oooh, Stockholm syndrome, good hypothesis.

 

[Marcus]

This line of thinking reminds me of the conundrum Christians have regarding satanists. Many xtians can regard almost anyone that is bad in their view as a satanist, even atheists yet Satan is a christian concept and satanists have beliefs that spring from Christianity, including belief in god. An atheist could no more love or hate Satan than they could the FSM. The other bit about an ability to hate fictional characters is a semantic argument, I concede the word is broad enough to include this definition, but I don't believe it is what Kathy has in mind when she says atheists hate god.

 

[Freethinker]

Definitely. But, what I don't understand is based upon her views of god, why she doesn't hate him.

"He only does evil things because he loves me"

"If only I was a better Christian, he wouldn't do things like this"

“It’s not that bad.”

“It only happens occasionally.”

“He hardly ever hits me.”

“I know he will stop this time.”

 

[madurobob]

ETA: Oooh, Stockholm syndrome, good hypothesis.

Yes, but a bit deeper than that, even. Toss in a desire to please or honor parents or grandparents, a need to feel somehow socially acceptable, a need to confirm that things you felt deeply earlier in your life are still valid.

Some people revel in breaking those binds, others are terrified of even considering it and will torture reason to avoid it. This, of course, goes for believers and non-believers alike. If you are not prepared to question your deepest held beliefs, you are ill prepared to push them on others.

 

[Marcus]

The real problem is kk takes all the examples given of how her god would be an evil being if it existed and stripping out the if it existed part, and then saying, "Aha! you acknowledge god's existence but you hate him." She may as well sign her posts as yhtaK.

kk wants us to hate god, so that she can say that we must really believe in him. She subscribes to what Marcus said.

Some theists express the view that everyone believes in god and that atheists are just lying.Perhaps Kathy is simply unable to imagine a person who does not Believe.

 

[RoboTimbo]

Some theists express the view that everyone believes in god and that atheists are just lying.Perhaps Kathy is simply unable to imagine a person who does not Believe.

yrreG syndrome? Or xtian syndrome?

 

[Sun Countess]

I do not like suffering anymore than anyone else does but everyone sure seems to be upset about it and blame God for it. I say it's a mistake to blame God. Is that being too judgemental? Tell me is it really me you are upset with or the message?

Who here is blaming god for suffering? Most of the people in this thread don't believe in god, and don't believe he's to blame for any of the suffering in the world.

We live in a hostile environment, there's all kinds of bacteria and viruses running around, plus a whole whack of evil people. Add in your basic negligence, and yup. Bad things happen to good people all the time. Someone's kid is getting cancer, somebody up the street is getting shot, and your next door neighbor's house is accidentally set on fire. We all get that. Life is a crapshoot.

Where the disconnect comes in is when someone believes that this omnipotent and benevolent god is watching over everybody on earth, and is able to respond to their prayers, and yet still somehow allows 40,000 children to die every day, while others are hit with earthquakes and tsunamis, plus a whole lot of other suffering through accident, disease, violence, and natural disasters. Is god up there answering prayers and keeping people safe, or does he find joy in watching people suffer so much?

Again, keep in mind that I and many others don't believe there is a god looking over anything, so we don't cast any blame in his direction. I'd like to know how you reconcile a loving omnipotent being with all the suffering you see happening in the world? Is it really so easy to blame every incident of pain or suffering on some long-dead couple who once ate a piece of fruit they were told not to touch?

 

[tsig]

The imagery for starters. Exactly which orifice does one enter Christ, and what were you doing in Christ's privy.

She's the Keeper of the Privy Seat.

 

[Elizabeth I]

Tell me is it really me you are upset with or the message?

I'm upset with someone who said she would do something, then didn't do it, then whined, complained, and poor-mouthed when that was pointed out to her.

You didn't have to read and analyze the book. All you had to do was NOT to agree to do so. But, having agreed to read and analyze the book, you really should keep your word.

 

[Filippo Lippi]

"Lies for Jesus"